All Vulcan crews?

[Patrick Degan]

Think about it this way:

There's enough trouble with cultural differences when they've got ONE Vulcan aboard a starship. Now let's say they get 1/2 humans, 1/2 Vulcans. The crew just isn't going to get along due to cultural differences. They won't grow as strong bonds. So when trouble comes, they can't be expected to trust/rely/work together as well. Also, it's in human nature to be xenophobic, a little bit. You wouldn't want your crew looking sideways at every alien crewmember just out of instinct.

Making homogenous crews is simply to make things run smoother.

OK, let's restate the problem and see how this reads, shall we:

Think about it this way:

There's enough trouble with cultural differences when they've got ONE black man aboard a starship. Now let's say they get 1/2 whites, 1/2 blacks. The crew just isn't going to get along due to cultural differences. They won't grow as strong bonds. So when trouble comes, they can't be expected to trust/rely/work together as well. Also, it's in human nature to be racist, a little bit. You wouldn't want your crew looking sideways at every black crewmember just out of instinct.

Making homogenous crews is simply to make things run smoother.

Or, howzabout this:

Think about it this way:

There's enough trouble with cultural differences when they've got ONE Jew aboard a starship. Now let's say they get 1/2 Aryans, 1/2 Jews. The crew just isn't going to get along due to cultural differences. They won't grow as strong bonds. So when trouble comes, they can't be expected to trust/rely/work together as well. Also, it's in human nature to be anti-semitic, a little bit. You wouldn't want your crew looking sideways at every Jewish crewmember just out of instinct.

Making homogenous crews is simply to make things run smoother.

No matter how you cut it, you can't make a justifiable argument for racial segregation. That is no different from LCmdr. Hobson's racist blather about how "Klingons don't make good engineers" or "Bolians don't make good ship's counsellors" and how people from certain races shouldn't occupy roles that don't "suit" them while expressing his insubordinate disrespect to Data who's just been placed in command of the USS Sutherland by order of Starfleet Command in "Redemption (2)".

[pecker]

Think about it this way:

There's enough trouble with cultural differences when they've got ONE Vulcan aboard a starship. Now let's say they get 1/2 humans, 1/2 Vulcans. The crew just isn't going to get along due to cultural differences. They won't grow as strong bonds. So when trouble comes, they can't be expected to trust/rely/work together as well. Also, it's in human nature to be xenophobic, a little bit. You wouldn't want your crew looking sideways at every alien crewmember just out of instinct.

Making homogenous crews is simply to make things run smoother.

OK, let's restate the problem and see how this reads, shall we:

Think about it this way:

There's enough trouble with cultural differences when they've got ONE black man aboard a starship. Now let's say they get 1/2 whites, 1/2 blacks. The crew just isn't going to get along due to cultural differences. They won't grow as strong bonds. So when trouble comes, they can't be expected to trust/rely/work together as well. Also, it's in human nature to be racist, a little bit. You wouldn't want your crew looking sideways at every black crewmember just out of instinct.

Making homogenous crews is simply to make things run smoother.

Or, howzabout this:

Think about it this way:

There's enough trouble with cultural differences when they've got ONE Jew aboard a starship. Now let's say they get 1/2 Aryans, 1/2 Jews. The crew just isn't going to get along due to cultural differences. They won't grow as strong bonds. So when trouble comes, they can't be expected to trust/rely/work together as well. Also, it's in human nature to be anti-semitic, a little bit. You wouldn't want your crew looking sideways at every Jewish crewmember just out of instinct.

Making homogenous crews is simply to make things run smoother.

No matter how you cut it, you can't make a justifiable argument for racial segregation. That is no different from LCmdr. Hobson's racist blather about how "Klingons don't make good engineers" or "Bolians don't make good ship's counsellors" and how people from certain races shouldn't occupy roles that don't "suit" them while expressing his insubordinate disrespect to Data who's just been placed in command of the USS Sutherland by order of Starfleet Command in "Redemption (2)".

I never said that. All I said was that there may be habits that could affect shipboard efficiency. And the difference between human races is that... there IS no difference. There is actually a definite difference between me and a blue guy with feelers.

[Evil Jerk]

Think about it this way:

There's enough trouble with cultural differences when they've got ONE Vulcan aboard a starship. Now let's say they get 1/2 humans, 1/2 Vulcans. The crew just isn't going to get along due to cultural differences. They won't grow as strong bonds. So when trouble comes, they can't be expected to trust/rely/work together as well. Also, it's in human nature to be xenophobic, a little bit. You wouldn't want your crew looking sideways at every alien crewmember just out of instinct.

Making homogenous crews is simply to make things run smoother.

OK, let's restate the problem and see how this reads, shall we:

Think about it this way:

There's enough trouble with cultural differences when they've got ONE black man aboard a starship. Now let's say they get 1/2 whites, 1/2 blacks. The crew just isn't going to get along due to cultural differences. They won't grow as strong bonds. So when trouble comes, they can't be expected to trust/rely/work together as well. Also, it's in human nature to be racist, a little bit. You wouldn't want your crew looking sideways at every black crewmember just out of instinct.

Making homogenous crews is simply to make things run smoother.

Or, howzabout this:

Think about it this way:

There's enough trouble with cultural differences when they've got ONE Jew aboard a starship. Now let's say they get 1/2 Aryans, 1/2 Jews. The crew just isn't going to get along due to cultural differences. They won't grow as strong bonds. So when trouble comes, they can't be expected to trust/rely/work together as well. Also, it's in human nature to be anti-semitic, a little bit. You wouldn't want your crew looking sideways at every Jewish crewmember just out of instinct.

Making homogenous crews is simply to make things run smoother.

No matter how you cut it, you can't make a justifiable argument for racial segregation. That is no different from LCmdr. Hobson's racist blather about how "Klingons don't make good engineers" or "Bolians don't make good ship's counsellors" and how people from certain races shouldn't occupy roles that don't "suit" them while expressing his insubordinate disrespect to Data who's just been placed in command of the USS Sutherland by order of Starfleet Command in "Redemption (2)".

I never said that. All I said was that there may be habits that could affect shipboard efficiency. And the difference between human races is that... there IS no difference. There is actually a definite difference between me and a blue guy with feelers.

And what if the fact that the guy is blue and has feelers is the only difference?
Remember also, most races in ST are linked together through the ancient humanoids (however ridiculous that premise is) and they can interbreed and produce viable offspring, which means they're not very different.

[Darth Wong]

I never said that. All I said was that there may be habits that could affect shipboard efficiency. And the difference between human races is that... there IS no difference. There is actually a definite difference between me and a blue guy with feelers.

Why? Because he's blue and has antennae on his head? You have to demonstrate evidence of intrinsic mental differences in order to make this point work, not simply argue that a sufficiently large difference in physical appearance should be implicit proof of intrinsic mental differences.

[pecker]

And what if the fact that the guy is blue and has feelers is the only difference?
Remember also, most races in ST are linked together through the ancient humanoids (however ridiculous that premise is) and they can interbreed and produce viable offspring, which means they're not very different.

Humans like to work with humans, Andorians with Andorians. If that's the way they like it, just let'em do it.

[Patrick Degan]

All I said was that there may be habits that could affect shipboard efficiency. And the difference between human races is that... there IS no difference. There is actually a definite difference between me and a blue guy with feelers.

Philosophically, metaphorically, no.

And as for "habits that could affect shipboard efficency", that presumably is the purpose of military discipline to smooth out.

[Darth Wong]

Humans like to work with humans, Andorians with Andorians. If that's the way they like it, just let'em do it.

Huh? White-supremacists like to work with whites, black-separatists with blacks. If that's the way they like it, just let 'em do it? Sorry, but racial segregation only creates self-perpetuating hostilities.

[pecker]

All I said was that there may be habits that could affect shipboard efficiency. And the difference between human races is that... there IS no difference. There is actually a definite difference between me and a blue guy with feelers.

Philosophically, metaphorically, no.

And as for "habits that could affect shipboard efficency", that presumably is the purpose of military discipline to smooth out.

What if the Vulcan idea of discipline is different from the Human idea of dsicipline? You can't value one as higher over the others. So you simply separate the two dissenting doctrines, but still keep them under a single Primary command (SFHQ). It seems to work, whether it should or not in real life.

[pecker]

Humans like to work with humans, Andorians with Andorians. If that's the way they like it, just let'em do it.

Huh? White-supremacists like to work with whites, black-separatists with blacks. If that's the way they like it, just let 'em do it? Sorry, but racial segregation only creates self-perpetuating hostilities.

I don't see alien races and human races as an very good analogy. But maybe that's just me.

[Darth Wong]

What if the Vulcan idea of discipline is different from the Human idea of dsicipline?

You are still assuming your conclusion (that different species are locked into biologically deterministic thought patterns and cannot reason their way out of them) as a premise, and using it in all of your arguments.

You can't value one as higher over the others. So you simply separate the two dissenting doctrines, but still keep them under a single Primary command (SFHQ). It seems to work, whether it should or not in real life.

Military discipline is a matter of the regs, not presumed racially motivated thought patterns.

[Patrick Degan]

What if the Vulcan idea of discipline is different from the Human idea of dsicipline? You can't value one as higher over the others. So you simply separate the two dissenting doctrines, but still keep them under a single Primary command (SFHQ). It seems to work, whether it should or not in real life.

As they say in the military, there's only four ways of doing things: the right way, the wrong way, your momma's way and the NAVY way. You're trying desperately to twist your way out of an untenable position. Either you have a unified service, with uniform codes of conduct and discipilne, in which each officer and crewman is expected to abide by in order to form a cohesive crew, or you impose rigid segregation on racial lines. Seperate But Equal is not a valid premise.

[Evil Jerk]

Humans like to work with humans, Andorians with Andorians. If that's the way they like it, just let'em do it.

Huh? White-supremacists like to work with whites, black-separatists with blacks. If that's the way they like it, just let 'em do it? Sorry, but racial segregation only creates self-perpetuating hostilities.

I don't see alien races and human races as an very good analogy. But maybe that's just me.

I don't see why not. We humans are not hardwired to think one way (however much some think it to be true), and there's no reason why aliens, especially the humanoid Trek aliens should be hardwired to think another way (however much certain writers try to perpetuate these stereotypes).

[pecker]

What if the Vulcan idea of discipline is different from the Human idea of dsicipline?

You are still assuming your conclusion (that different species are locked into biologically deterministic thought patterns and cannot reason their way out of them) as a premise, and using it in all of your arguments.

You can't value one as higher over the others. So you simply separate the two dissenting doctrines, but still keep them under a single Primary command (SFHQ). It seems to work, whether it should or not in real life.

Military discipline is a matter of the regs, not presumed racially motivated thought patterns.

I don't mean it to be biological. Your average Human or Vulcan grows up on their respective homeworld, which have differing cultures. Now, you can't just smash'em together and expect them to get along.

Actually, that may be why everyone in StarFleet goes to the Academy for so long (As was already pointed out), to get used to the other aliens.
Let's say the UN decided to make a fleet. Now, would it crew each ship with 1/4 Americans, 1/4 Chinese, 1/4 Russians, and 1/4 French? Or would they keep the crews of the same nationality? If they chose the former, there'd have to be some sort of stage to get them used to eachother, such as the Academy.

I realize the above example is flawed in that most terran militaries operate in much the same way, making the combinations less 'traumatic'. But take alien militaries that may have differen rank structures and such. Is a 'Lieutenant' of higher or lower rank than an Andorian 'Level Four Sub-Captain'

Then again, Worf was raised by humans yet still kept all that 'Honor' crap. Maybe in the ST-verse, cultural traits ARE biologically ingrained.
[/retarded idea]

[Evil Jerk]

I realize the above example is flawed in that most terran militaries operate in much the same way, making the combinations less 'traumatic'. But take alien militaries that may have differen rank structures and such. Is a 'Lieutenant' of higher or lower rank than an Andorian 'Level Four Sub-Captain'

Seeing as Starfleet is the Federation's sole military, I don't see the problem here, they would all be taught the same regs and ranks, and you'd have to be pretty thick headed to not accept them.

Then again, Worf was raised by humans yet still kept all that 'Honor' crap. Maybe in the ST-verse, cultural traits ARE biologically ingrained.
[/retarded idea]

Eh, I view that as the writers not knowing what the hell they're talking about.

[pecker]

I realize the above example is flawed in that most terran militaries operate in much the same way, making the combinations less 'traumatic'. But take alien militaries that may have differen rank structures and such. Is a 'Lieutenant' of higher or lower rank than an Andorian 'Level Four Sub-Captain'

Seeing as Starfleet is the Federation's sole military, I don't see the problem here, they would all be taught the same regs and ranks, and you'd have to be pretty thick headed to not accept them.

Then again, Worf was raised by humans yet still kept all that 'Honor' crap. Maybe in the ST-verse, cultural traits ARE biologically ingrained.
[/retarded idea]

Eh, I view that as the writers not knowing what the hell they're talking
about.

Well, that's obvious.

[Darth Yoshi]

I don't mean it to be biological. Your average Human or Vulcan grows up on their respective homeworld, which have differing cultures. Now, you can't just smash'em together and expect them to get along.

Actually, that may be why everyone in StarFleet goes to the Academy for so long (As was already pointed out), to get used to the other aliens.
Let's say the UN decided to make a fleet. Now, would it crew each ship with 1/4 Americans, 1/4 Chinese, 1/4 Russians, and 1/4 French? Or would they keep the crews of the same nationality? If they chose the former, there'd have to be some sort of stage to get them used to eachother, such as the Academy.

Washington goy along with Lafayette pretty well during the American Revolution, despite having been raised on two separate continents with their respective gov'ts being enemies a mere 20 yrs before.

[pecker]

I don't mean it to be biological. Your average Human or Vulcan grows up on their respective homeworld, which have differing cultures. Now, you can't just smash'em together and expect them to get along.

Actually, that may be why everyone in StarFleet goes to the Academy for so long (As was already pointed out), to get used to the other aliens.
Let's say the UN decided to make a fleet. Now, would it crew each ship with 1/4 Americans, 1/4 Chinese, 1/4 Russians, and 1/4 French? Or would they keep the crews of the same nationality? If they chose the former, there'd have to be some sort of stage to get them used to eachother, such as the Academy.

Washington goy along with Lafayette pretty well during the American Revolution, despite having been raised on two separate continents with their respective gov'ts being enemies a mere 20 yrs before.

Again, I said the analogy was flawed. But the British and French militaries were quite similar. Alien ones are likely not.

[Patrick Degan]

I don't mean it to be biological. Your average Human or Vulcan grows up on their respective homeworld, which have differing cultures. Now, you can't just smash'em together and expect them to get along.

Actually, that may be why everyone in StarFleet goes to the Academy for so long (As was already pointed out), to get used to the other aliens.
Let's say the UN decided to make a fleet. Now, would it crew each ship with 1/4 Americans, 1/4 Chinese, 1/4 Russians, and 1/4 French? Or would they keep the crews of the same nationality? If they chose the former, there'd have to be some sort of stage to get them used to eachother, such as the Academy.

Washington goy along with Lafayette pretty well during the American Revolution, despite having been raised on two separate continents with their respective gov'ts being enemies a mere 20 yrs before.

Again, I said the analogy was flawed. But the British and French militaries were quite similar. Alien ones are likely not.

It makes no difference. Any aliens signing up for service in the Federation Starfleet are going to be drilled in doing things the Starfleet way. Following Starfleet regulations, according to Starfleet discipline, and learning the Starfleet rank and command system. That's the way it is in the military.

[Tsyroc]

At least in the time of TOS it's kind of looking like Vulcan's and humans had not mixed onboard ships for extended periods of time very sucessfully.
Enterprise keeps making a point about how T'Pol has managed to stay on a human ship far longer than any other Vulcan. She's gone a year while the next longest stay was 10 days (need to work on that Vulcan discipline and control don't they?).

One of the reasons that Vulcan's don't like to be in close quarters with humans (once again according to Enterprise) is that to Vulcans humans smell bad. T'Pol has to take a drug that helps deaden her sense of smell.

I would imagine that people as disciplined and indoctrinated (in the teachings of Surak) as the Vulcans would have difficulty living with humans. While logic is a good thing the Vulcan's are basically a version of fundie. Not the worst sort, since they aren't extreme in pushing others to accept their values but the philosophy they've been raised to live by is rather extreme.

[Jawawithagun]

It makes no difference. Any aliens signing up for service in the Federation Starfleet are going to be drilled in doing things the Starfleet way. Following Starfleet regulations, according to Starfleet discipline, and learning the Starfleet rank and command system. That's the way it is in the military.

And who (and which species) will decide what's the Starfleet way? It probably just ends up everyone has to do it the human way. Though, Starfleet regulations devised solely by Vulcans - sounds like an intriguing way to dive Earth-people mad.

---

Starfleet regulation #34645: Any officer has to be able to survive in a methane/ammonia atmosphere for extended amounts of time.
That's what you'll learn at Starfleet Academy

[Jawawithagun]

It makes no difference. Any aliens signing up for service in the Federation Starfleet are going to be drilled in doing things the Starfleet way. Following Starfleet regulations, according to Starfleet discipline, and learning the Starfleet rank and command system. That's the way it is in the military.

And who (and which species) will decide what's the Starfleet way? It probably just ends up everyone has to do it the human way. Though, Starfleet regulations devised solely by Vulcans - sounds like an intriguing way to dive Earth-people mad.

---

Starfleet regulation #34645: Any officer has to be able to survive in a methane/ammonia atmosphere for extended amounts of time.
That's what you'll learn at Starfleet Academy

[Evil Jerk]

At least in the time of TOS it's kind of looking like Vulcan's and humans had not mixed onboard ships for extended periods of time very sucessfully.
Enterprise keeps making a point about how T'Pol has managed to stay on a human ship far longer than any other Vulcan. She's gone a year while the next longest stay was 10 days (need to work on that Vulcan discipline and control don't they?).

One of the reasons that Vulcan's don't like to be in close quarters with humans (once again according to Enterprise) is that to Vulcans humans smell bad. T'Pol has to take a drug that helps deaden her sense of smell.

I would imagine that people as disciplined and indoctrinated (in the teachings of Surak) as the Vulcans would have difficulty living with humans. While logic is a good thing the Vulcan's are basically a version of fundie. Not the worst sort, since they aren't extreme in pushing others to accept their values but the philosophy they've been raised to live by is rather extreme.

Anything from Enterprise can go straight to hell riding B&B's carcasses.
That is all.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Starfleet=condenscending racist bastards?

Nah, Vulcans=condescending racist bastards, even as far back as TOS. Remember Sarek's line in ST:V when Spock was born? "So human..."

[pecker]

At least in the time of TOS it's kind of looking like Vulcan's and humans had not mixed onboard ships for extended periods of time very sucessfully.
Enterprise keeps making a point about how T'Pol has managed to stay on a human ship far longer than any other Vulcan. She's gone a year while the next longest stay was 10 days (need to work on that Vulcan discipline and control don't they?).

One of the reasons that Vulcan's don't like to be in close quarters with humans (once again according to Enterprise) is that to Vulcans humans smell bad. T'Pol has to take a drug that helps deaden her sense of smell.

I would imagine that people as disciplined and indoctrinated (in the teachings of Surak) as the Vulcans would have difficulty living with humans. While logic is a good thing the Vulcan's are basically a version of fundie. Not the worst sort, since they aren't extreme in pushing others to accept their values but the philosophy they've been raised to live by is rather extreme.

Anything from Enterprise can go straight to hell riding B&B's carcasses.
That is all.

I can quickly ignore it's supposed lack of external continuity for two reasons
1) I don't know shit aobut ST 'history' anyway
2) It's actually enjoyable to watch. Not the pinnacle of Television, but I have fun. On it's own merits, it's not a half-bad show.

[TheDarkling]

The real problem with the races in Star Trek is that the walk on and walk off characters do all act the same way, Romulans - Sneaky, Klingons - Brutes, Vulcans - Smug etc yet once a character of a specific race is developed they become 3d (Voyager excluded due to no character developement of course) but are painted as special - Spock not an average Vulcan, Martok not an average Klingon and so on this leads to the illusion that all Vulcans are the same (only humans have a plain canvas to work from everyone else has a culturally ingrained state of play).

In realistic terms though physical differances shouldnt be a problem but wide ranging social ones would be (as often happens here on earth between people of varying social status, age, gender and so on - this situation would be made only worse by these people being alien).

Vulcans probably do get along better with other Vulcans - not because they both have pointed ears but because they both know each others cultural norms ("hey hows the Pon Farr going" would not be an ideal question - other Vulcans would know this ).

However I dont think there are any all Human ships from TNG onwards (not to my knowledge) simply because humans get along with everyone (who so alot of scifi would have us believe) therefore we have no problems, yet Vulcans being one of the odder races probably dont like to put up with the humans (a way for Vulcans who dont like emotional beings to serve in SF).

Basically im grasping at straws to try and explain such a stupid move on B&B's part but theres my take (this is why I like the NF books the bridge crew has 2 humans on it (and one of those isnt really human) and the rest is a huge mixture, just as a SF ship should be).