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Rather than taking another thread off the tracks, I thought I'd open this up here. It's an intriguing examination of the character of Chakotay from the American Indian perspective, basically that not only does he manage to fit in many of the traditional stereotypes, but also gets to add some New Age ones to boot.

Linky

Like I've said elsewhere, you never hear Tom Paris spending one episode going on about being chased by the bulls in the traditions of his people, and the next celebrating his people's penchant for making watches and chocolate, yet Voyager seemed to think that Chakotay could represent two continents worth of people and somehow not be offensive.

I wonder if the Voyager writers' bible contained any information on Chakotay's background beyond "Native American". It seems as though the writers were given free reign to treat him in the same way they treat forehead aliens: making up new bullshit "customs" for plot devices as they went along.

It wasn't the first time a Star Trek character mixed and matched ethnic stereotypes (a certain British-accented, tea-drinking, Shakespeare-reciting Frenchman comes to mind), but it was the first time they wrote a human character in the same way they wrote Spock, Worf, and Kira.

Anyway, I liked the first linked article but I thought the second was post-modernist drivel more concerned with its own agenda than an honest interpretation of the source. The character the second article describes sometimes sounds more like Neelix than Chakotay (native guide, making alliances, isolated from the crew).

He was supposed to be South American? I always figured he was a plains indian(because of things pointed out in the article.)

Sonnenburg wrote:Like I've said elsewhere, you never hear Tom Paris spending one episode going on about being chased by the bulls in the traditions of his people, and the next celebrating his people's penchant for making watches and chocolate, yet Voyager seemed to think that Chakotay could represent two continents worth of people and somehow not be offensive.

Ah... Tom Paris only lived in France for a few years of starfleet training. He grew up in California (he drove his father's car into Lake Tahoe).

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Ah... Tom Paris only lived in France for a few years of starfleet training.

Um, nevermind that the French aren't known for making watches or chocolate: the Swiss are.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Ah... Tom Paris only lived in France for a few years of starfleet training.

Um, nevermind that the French aren't known for making watches or chocolate: the Swiss are.

Yeah, that was 9 kinds of confusing.

Incidentally, I hate this Trek school of thought where you can add some visible minority and beat your chest and say you're "Progressive." Whatever. It's a poor emulation of TOS, and TOS only did it to stick it to the Ruskies (Chekov was only added because of some Russian bitching, according to the story; I don't actually care all that much).

Chakotay was a dumb character written by dumb writers and played by a dumb actor. My favourite scenes with him was when he got emasculated by Sesta.

Stofsk wrote:Whatever. It's a poor emulation of TOS, and TOS only did it to stick it to the Ruskies (Chekov was only added because of some Russian bitching, according to the story; I don't actually care all that much).

That was just the fabricated public story. In reality, they wanted a younger, Davy Jones-ish character to add greater appeal to the youth demographic.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:That was just the fabricated public story. In reality, they wanted a younger, Davy Jones-ish character to add greater appeal to the youth demographic.

While they were looking to stick a Monkee in the show since season one, there was still thought to be a Soviet influence to it.

Herb Solow wrote about it at length back in 1996's Star Trek: The Real Story. The book containes the letter GR wrote to the Central Committee, about the article.

Gene Roddenberry wrote:Dear Mr Zimanyin:

About ten months ago one of the stars of our television show, STAR TREK informed us that he had heard that the youth edition of your newspaper had published an article regarding STAR TREK to the effect that the only nationality we werwe missing aboard our USS Enterprise was a Russian. We were certainly most flattered to even have mention from so far away and wondered if perhaps you could confirm that there was such an article and if so could possibly presume upon you for a copy of it.

Incidentally, as soon as we heard of this artcile we added that Russian character. His name is Chekov, and he is, we feel, a great additon to the show.

From that letter, it seems that Chekov was added after just hearing about the supposed article. The whole thing wasn't even mentioned publically until 1968, a year after Chekov showed up.

Whether or not the article was real, it seems that the very idea of it was what made Chekov a Russian.

Yeah, that's right (I've read that book, too; it's great and I want my own copy soon).

Still, there's a LOT of fabricated lying bullshit with Star Trek, especially when that bastard Roddenberry was involved.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

Stofsk wrote:Whatever. It's a poor emulation of TOS, and TOS only did it to stick it to the Ruskies (Chekov was only added because of some Russian bitching, according to the story; I don't actually care all that much).

That was just the fabricated public story. In reality, they wanted a younger, Davy Jones-ish character to add greater appeal to the youth demographic.

That sounds familiar. I must have read that on the forum some time ago but simply forgot. I never really bought the public story - it sounds too cute to be true... and because I heard it come out of Gene Roddenberry's mouth, so that automatically made it suspect.

Still, the 'plug the visible minority' aspect of my point remains true. Regardless of whether or not they wanted, as you say, a 'Davy Jones' type would have no bearing on Walter Koenig's accent, which was deliberately faked (he's no Russian). You could say that TOS started this trend, but they had fun with it - which excuses them, I think. The only time Chekov gave us the 'stereotypical Russian' thing was when he bragged Russia invented it first - a joke which was often comical. Latter-day Trek took the racial stereotyping to ridiculous extremes, to the point where Chakotay's character was just some farcical amalgamation of various bullshit ideas.

Oh, of course.

Shatner outright denies the whole thing in his book Star Trek Memories. But I trust Solow and Justman not to fabricate this stuff after thirty years and Gene's passing.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Ah... Tom Paris only lived in France for a few years of starfleet training.

Um, nevermind that the French aren't known for making watches or chocolate: the Swiss are.

That's Sonnenburg's point, I think: Chakotay mixing and matching traditions from right across the American continent(s) is just as ridiculous as if Paris were to start mixing and matching widely dispersed European customs.

In both cases, it lumps together totally different nationalities and customs as if hey were all the same thing, in a way that is disrespectful to the point of being racist - but not intentionally racist, just blitheringly ignorant.

Stofsk wrote: Chakotay was a dumb character written by dumb writers and played by a dumb actor. My favourite scenes with him was when he got emasculated by Sesta.

I agree with you; Chuckles was badly written and badly acted. I honestly fucking think Robert Beltran was Star Trek's answer to Steven Seagal (only slightly more emotive). I think Commander Chakotay would've been a far cooler character if he was written as a darker version of Captain Kirk with a hint of Han Solo and played by Gary Graham. No Native American claptrap (or much less of it).

Chekov was nowhere near the cartoon that Chuckles was. The occasional "it's a Russian inwension" crack doesn't equal Chakotay being depicted as playing with medicine wheels, seeking animal totems, and taking his captain on vision-quests by fireside.

On TOS, the writers would invent Vulcan customs and mannerisms for Spock as a consequence of trying to craft a character who was somebody other than just a guy with funny ears, but they never had Spock peforming Vulcan rituals every fifth episode or so (this came out far more in the movies and even in those it was just a throwaway scene) or quoting from the Book of Surak at every turn. On the bridge, he was consummately professional and performed as a scientist. It helped that Leonard Nimoy was a good actor who really refined his portrayal of the character in three seasons and that the writers for the most part simply worried about dumping their heroes into the tiger-pit and working on how they get out of it by the final commercial break. Most times, the main hints of Spock's Vulcan heritage were given by nothing more than the decor in his quarters and not by caricature.

Chakotay would have been well-depicted as a professional soldier who just happened to be an indian. Do the face-tattoo, have some relics and tribal decor hanging in his quarters, but ditch the crystals and the medicine wheels and seeking the animal-spirits —presumably man by the 24th century knows how the universe works and knows that spirits don't control matter and it was beyond ridiculous that Chakotay turned to superstition even once to solve a problem.

Hell, the show might have been just a bit better if he'd been the fucking captain were it not for the fact that Robert Beltran just can't out-act concrete. Or maybe it was just that he couldn't be bothered to give a goddamn about the caricature he was expected to portray.

ADDENDUM: As a thought-experment, imagine if Uhura had been depicted in Bantu tribal dress performing a fire-dance in TOS or had been cast in the same manner as the stereotypes populating the TNG season one episode "Code Of Honour". Or if Sulu was seen to be worshipping the Emperor.

Commander Chakotay is one of the bigger reasons why I want to dash people's heads against marble toilet seats if they suggest that the "overuse" of Seven of Nine and the EMH ruined Voyager, when most of the other characters (including Chuckles) fucking sucked monkey balls anyway. Mind you the fans that complained the most about the overuse of the EMH and Seven mostly populate Trek BBS, so that stands to reason.

Big Orange wrote:Commander Chakotay is one of the bigger reasons why I want to dash people's heads against marble toilet seats if they suggest that the "overuse" of Seven of Nine and the EMH ruined Voyager, when most of the other characters (including Chuckles) fucking sucked monkey balls anyway. Mind you the fans that complained the most about the overuse of the EMH and Seven mostly populate Trek BBS, so that stands to reason.

The argument could be made that the other characters only remained crap becuase the writers overused Seven and the Doctor rather than writing decent episodes for the other characters.

I'm sure if they put some effort in to it they could have written the other characters as good characters. Take Tom Paris for example. ditch the 20th century obession stuff and write about his deep seated psychological problems with his father nad the resons he flunked out of both starfleet and the marquis. I seem to recall "30 Days" did that quite well.

Personally, one line that always had me scratching my head thinking "this is progressive" was in Voyager's pilot, Caretaker when at one point Paris says to Chakotay "Isn't there some sort of Indian trick where you can turn yourself into a bird and fly us out of here?" Seemed some Voyager writers just appraoched Chakotay as writer's from films since the 1950's appraoched indians.

ADDENDUM: As a thought-experment, imagine if Uhura had been depicted in Bantu tribal dress performing a fire-dance in TOS or had been cast in the same manner as the stereotypes populating the TNG season one episode "Code Of Honour". Or if Sulu was seen to be worshipping the Emperor.

An aside about Sulu, the original script for "The Naked Time" called for Sulu to brandish a katana, but George Takai suggested the director change it to a fencing foil.

Skylon wrote:Personally, one line that always had me scratching my head thinking "this is progressive" was in Voyager's pilot, Caretaker when at one point Paris says to Chakotay "Isn't there some sort of Indian trick where you can turn yourself into a bird and fly us out of here?" Seemed some Voyager writers just appraoched Chakotay as writer's from films since the 1950's appraoched indians.

You know, that would have been a great line in a 50s western movie.

The goal of the scene was clearly to wrap up the Chakotay-Paris rivalry in one neat and wholey offensive package.

It's a wonder they didn't have it come down to this:

SCENE CHAKOTAY with ear pressed to bridge deck as Capt. Janeway looks

CHAKOTAY
"Hmmm.... Kazons coming, kemosabe. Two, mebbe three parsecs away."

Skylon wrote:An aside about Sulu, the original script for "The Naked Time" called for Sulu to brandish a katana, but George Takai suggested the director change it to a fencing foil.

Talk about going against stereotype: when the Psi 2000 virus affects Sulu, we find out his fantasy isn't to be Tohsiro Mifune but D'artagnan. In the later episode "The Squire Of Gothos" when Trelane is "complementing" Sulu by calling him "honourable sir" and bowing in the Japanese custom, Sulu simply mutters "Oh brother" or something like that.

Sulu is seen carrying a katana in "Day Of The Dove" but by season three his character had been well established to the point where it made no difference.

Patrick Degan wrote:It's a wonder they didn't have it come down to this:

SCENE CHAKOTAY with ear pressed to bridge deck as Capt. Janeway looks

CHAKOTAY
"Hmmm.... Kazons coming, kemosabe. Two, mebbe three parsecs away."

LOL. I would of payed to see that in Voyager.

Crazedwraith wrote: The argument could be made that the other characters only remained crap becuase the writers overused Seven and the Doctor rather than writing decent episodes for the other characters.

But that's an unconvincing aurgument if many of Voyager's characters were already uncompelling, long before Seven of Nine was even introduced. And the EMH proved to be the most interesting and entertaining character about five episodes into Voyager's first season.

And having seen Voyager's repeats on Channel Five, I still hold the opinion that the other characters were generally weaker than Seven or the EMH, even in the earlier episodes when the writers were paying more attention to them. I don't agree it was the performer's fault (especially in Jennifer Lien's or Ethan Phillip's case), but the generally bland writing was mostly to blame (although Robert Beltran and Garret Wang were always useless).

(although Robert Beltran and Garret Wang were always useless).

I agree on Beltran, but Wang did act (yes, he can actually move his limbs !) in Timeless. And quite well, too; he basically played a bitter, desillusioned version of Kim and did it with style.