StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Minor Discovery and Picard Spoilers starting... now. The appearance of a zen Worf and Captain Tuvok made me realise, only in one season of one show (Discovery Season 3) have we had an alien captain (of a Starfleet vessel) with any prominence and that's Saru.

I think it'd be very interesting to see either Worf or Tuvok as Captain of diverse crew and see how they do. I remember there was that one Janeway/Chakotay shipper episode that did have him in command But I can't remember how he did.

The curious thing about the only other Vulcan Captain with any prominence that I remember (Other than Spock who spent little to no screentime in command before Kirk took over) is Solok on Ds9 and he had an all vulcan crew, which is itself an odd thing to allow in utopian starfleet, ships segregated by species. Are there also all Andorian Starfleet vessels? All Tellerite Starfleet vessels?

Anyway a vulcan in command would be very interesting to see if they entirely delegated the emotional health of their crew to their XO or did it themselves. I'd like to see a Vulcan who still followed "the father to his men" trope but with IDIC sees the logic in ensuring he has a happy crew. (I'm reminded of Jack Aubrey who thinks a taut crew is a happy crew is an effective crew or in a more comic sense a vulcan starfleet version of Captain Holt from Brooklyn 99).

Anyway, if anyone has an ythoughts to add to this unfocused mess, they'd be very welcome.

Even in a diverse "utopian" Star Trekverse I could see starships crewed entirely by one species or nearly so simply due to biological differences. A predominantly Vulcan ship, for example, might have life support set to Vulcan comfort which Humans and Andorians (to name just two) might find uncomfortably hot and dry. You might have the odd one or two non-[fill in the blank] in such a crew from time to time. Meanwhile, there are likely other ships that have a large range of species, set life support at something most can tolerate, with individual crew quarters having separate settings. Since we mostly see the human-centric portion of Starfleet that's why we see predominantly Human crews with a smattering of others mixed in. A Vulcan-centric storyline might have mostly Vulcans with just a smattering of others, we just aren't seeing that. I don't doubt that if a Vulcan ship had non-Vulcans aboard they would try to accommodate their biological needs. Social needs might be a different issue, and might be at the heart of why some species tend towards single-species crews rather than mixed.

the old FASA Star Trek ships had species specific crewed FLEETS mentioned (i.e the Blue FLeet was ships entirely crewed by Andorians). Given the wide variety of terrain and climate conditions we've seen being 'native worlds' (isn't Andor such that it's hotest area is what we'd consider cool temperate), it makes sense as broomstick mentioned.

That's without considering height considerations, weight considerations, etc. It could be that Humans and Vulcans crew certain ships of ships, while other types are crewed mostly by another species due to the decks needing to be 3 - 4 meters heigh, or the decks needing to be capable of taking 3 ton walking tanks as crew members. Or the entire ship being crew from a 1/2G world, whiel another has the gravity at x3 to make it's crew comfortable.

It makes sense that ships are predominantly crewed by crews with mostly compatible living conditions.

One thing that might be of note is that when Spock took command of a crashed shuttle in TOS he made the same mistake Tuvok made when he took command of Voyager. Both neglected the emotions of their crew.

That makes me wonder if Starfleet's command training programs have a systematic problem when it comes to training Vulcans. Which has worrying implications since they are a founding species of the Federation.

Notably in lower decks we see a few alien Captains - one is a tellarian in command of what looks like a normal human centric California class, and another more interesting example is a Bolian who proceeded to assign himself an all Bolian bridge crew. Make of that what you will...

Also we have the borg hating Shaw somehow getting Seven as his first officer in Picard.

There is something fishy going on with how Starfleet selects bridge crews.

Leaving aside that, something that's been bothering me for a while is that in Starfleet, the CO is always a full Captain, whether it be the biggest and best Sovereign class or a tiny Nova or Oberth class. In real-world navies you'll have Commanders or even Lt. Commanders as CO's for smaller ships. We do see Commanders running starbases though (or at least we see Cmdr. Sisko at DS9, and several games have full-size starbases being run by Commanders (I'm specifically thinking of Starbase 11 in Bridge Commander).

Just seems a bit odd to me.

Not always, Sisko was in command of the 'Defiant' for a good bit BEFORE he got promoted to Captain, and whenever The Sisko was unavailable Dax or Worf (both not Captains) was in command, but by and large, you're not wrong. But then Starfleet is not a real-world Navy, why should it obide by the same rules ours do? There's also a distinct dearth of NCOs. Name one other than Miles O'Brien.

Batman wrote: ↑2023-04-10 02:15pm Not always, Sisko was in command of the 'Defiant' for a good bit BEFORE he got promoted to Captain, and whenever The Sisko was unavailable Dax or Worf (both not Captains) was in command, but by and large, you're not wrong. But then Starfleet is not a real-world Navy, why should it obide by the same rules ours do? There's also a distinct dearth of NCOs. Name one other than Miles O'Brien.

Funnily enough I recalled the Jadzia and Worf on the Defiant examples while cooking dinner earlier before seeing your post. And I'd forgotten that Sisko didn't get the Captain promotion until a years or so after getting his pimp-hand.

As for NCO's, that's another weird bit, since throughout TNG O'Brien was an officer - Captain Maxwell even states he was the tactical officer on the Rutledge.

You make a valid point though. Just strikes me as really really odd. Gives you the odd situation where a full Lieutenant as Security Chief on a Galaxy might actually be responsible for more personnel than the Captain on an Oberth.

Eternal_Freedom wrote: ↑2023-04-10 02:33pm
You make a valid point though. Just strikes me as really really odd. Gives you the odd situation where a full Lieutenant as Security Chief on a Galaxy might actually be responsible for more personnel than the Captain on an Oberth.

Yes but to use Worf as example only in regards to their security duties. Riker and Troi were seen often doing performance reviews / personnel decision. He still has them and Picard above him checking his work and ultimately having the responsibility.

The Captain of even a smaller ship still has ultimate responsibility for everyone on board and everything that happens. They might also be called on to conduct impromptu first contact and negotiations with minimal referral to the admiralty/starfleet command which a modern navy probably doesn't happen nearly so much. So they might like the captains of any vessel to have that experience and pull to handle that.

There's also a distinct dearth of NCOs. Name one other than Miles O'Brien.

Muniez? O'Brien's slightly reoccuring and then dead subordinate. Are TOS Yeoman officers? Then Janice Rand. Those are the only ones coming to mind.

Weirdly O'Brien serving as Tactical officer during the Cardassian War came up even on Ds9 when he was firmly established as an NCO.

Sisko as a Commander in charge of a station is an oddity as well. The suspicious type might think it was because Sinclar was a commander in the B5 pitch paramount saw.

Starbases we saw otherwise generally had a Commodore (in TOS) or Admiral (TNG Era) in charge. Then again they were Starbases not Deep Space stations. That could be the difference or that the Starfleet mission was technically only administrating the station that belong to the Bajorans, so it only had a commander's billet of actual starfleet staff assigned. (but then we circle around to starfleet ranks not really mapping to number of men under you anyway)

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2023-04-10 03:02pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote: ↑2023-04-10 02:33pm
You make a valid point though. Just strikes me as really really odd. Gives you the odd situation where a full Lieutenant as Security Chief on a Galaxy might actually be responsible for more personnel than the Captain on an Oberth.

Yes but to use Worf as example only in regards to their security duties. Riker and Troi were seen often doing performance reviews / personnel decision. He still has them and Picard above him checking his work and ultimately having the responsibility.

The Captain of even a smaller ship still has ultimate responsibility for everyone on board and everything that happens. They might also be called on to conduct impromptu first contact and negotiations with minimal referral to the admiralty/starfleet command which a modern navy probably doesn't happen nearly so much. So they might like the captains of any vessel to have that experience and pull to handle that.

That's a very good point and not a perspective I had considered, so thank you. That satisfies my random Star Trek related speculation for this month

Venturing into STO territory there's Va'Kel Shon, the Andorian captain of the Enterprise-F.

Broomstick wrote: ↑2023-04-09 06:15pm Even in a diverse "utopian" Star Trekverse I could see starships crewed entirely by one species or nearly so simply due to biological differences. A predominantly Vulcan ship, for example, might have life support set to Vulcan comfort which Humans and Andorians (to name just two) might find uncomfortably hot and dry. You might have the odd one or two non-[fill in the blank] in such a crew from time to time. Meanwhile, there are likely other ships that have a large range of species, set life support at something most can tolerate, with individual crew quarters having separate settings. Since we mostly see the human-centric portion of Starfleet that's why we see predominantly Human crews with a smattering of others mixed in. A Vulcan-centric storyline might have mostly Vulcans with just a smattering of others, we just aren't seeing that. I don't doubt that if a Vulcan ship had non-Vulcans aboard they would try to accommodate their biological needs. Social needs might be a different issue, and might be at the heart of why some species tend towards single-species crews rather than mixed.

All-Vulcan crews were something they apparently toyed with as far back as TOS, and are canon by at least DS9. There, however, its implied that the crew selection was the responsibility of its commanding officer, who is blatantly a Vulcan racial supremacist with particularly patronizing views of humans (which seems to also be a worryingly common outlook of Vulcans). Yes, a Vulcan crew might prefer warmer conditions, but it seems that the social factors are driving this more than anything. Both Lower Decks and Prodigy confirm that Vulcan High Command (from Enterprise) still exists and has their own ships and ship designs. This does track with the TNG episode "Reunification" where the Romulan plot centered around stealing decommissioned Vulcan ships out of a junkyard to use as a Trojan horse invasion fleet. Presumably those were High Command's ships they stole, not just vessels randomly made by the Vulcans. Anyway, Lower Decks is interesting because it gives us a view of what its like on a Vulcan science vessel, and their adherence towards traditional Vulcan values comes off as downright conservative. Granted, our POV character on the ship is basically a Vulcan equivalent of Ensign Mariner, in that she is rebellious in her own way and doesn't care about how she is perceived. She looks up to Spock and openly quotes his belief that logic is the beginning and not the end of wisdom. Spock, of course, is apparently a divisive figure among Vulcans because his accomplishments are respected, but they were achieved while serving Starfleet. She also accuses the others of following the rules simply because they are the rules and not because they make sense, which she says is a Borg way of thinking, not a Vulcan one. But even after she saves the ship and the Cerritos by improving their shield performance in her off hours, all of this behavior gets her kicked out of High Command's service because she is seen as disruptive and impulsive by Vulcan standards, and those standards are enforced in their fleet. But specifically, she isn't drummed out of the service-- her captain offers her a transfer to Starfleet, which she reluctantly accepts even though she perceives the gesture as an insult. A Vulcan who trusts their instincts is seen as better off working among humans and other species, even or especially if their instincts are actually good.

I actually can't help but wonder if the all-Vulcan crewed starships in Starfleet are a demand of High Command so that they can feel like they have some kind of influence over the Federation's official defensive arm.

Vulcans are very long lived, so it kinda makes sense they might be rather conservative (for lack of a better term) and have a hard time figuring out how to respond to social movements in their own society away from the status quo that existed back in the 22'nd century. There have been Vulcans from all the way back then who were more experimental in embracing their emotions, but faced persecution. The Vulcan from Lower Decks is implicitly part of that movement, openly saying that it is logical for her to factor in gut feelings and emotional factors. This might be why so few Vulcans are in Starfleet, all the conservative ones tend to stay in High Command's service, and what few decide to enter Starfleet seem to tend towards having an agenda like the racist in DS9, or are transferred punitively by High Command for failing to fit into the work culture of Vulcan ships. But once they enter Starfleet, they face the same kind of racism that Spock, Nog, and Tendi face, where its not so much that humans hate them as that they have to put up with stereotyping based on the reputation of their species. So that might also factor in to why some ships end up skewing entirely towards one species crew. Human ships, on the other hand, are almost never single species, as humans embrace diversity and want the perspectives brought by having aliens aboard the ship. Hell, Lower Decks even canonized Cetacean Ops and the first officer considers one of the Beluga whales serving in that department to be one of his best friends. Humans are so excited to meet and work with different species that they are willing to devote huge sections of their ships to being filled with arctic water just so they can have whale navigators aboard! Humans in Star Trek seem to be the real weirdos.

Actually, speaking of aquatic mammals, that does make me wonder what the career path for species with particularly exotic environmental needs looks like. I remember there being one DS9 episode where they have a science officer come aboard who is among a species that evolved on a low gravity planet, and needs a wheelchair in order to live and work among most other species in Starfleet. So it isn't just the dolphins that have to put up with sub-optimal ship environments in order to work in Starfleet. Do these species ever get to command ships and starbases? Something to think about.

Eternal_Freedom wrote: ↑2023-04-10 12:34pm Leaving aside that, something that's been bothering me for a while is that in Starfleet, the CO is always a full Captain, whether it be the biggest and best Sovereign class or a tiny Nova or Oberth class. In real-world navies you'll have Commanders or even Lt. Commanders as CO's for smaller ships. We do see Commanders running starbases though (or at least we see Cmdr. Sisko at DS9, and several games have full-size starbases being run by Commanders (I'm specifically thinking of Starbase 11 in Bridge Commander).

Just seems a bit odd to me.

I think the issue is that Star Trek respects the naval tradition that whoever is in command of a ship has the right to be called "captain" as a formality regardless of what their actual rank is. Much like how the word "professor" technically means someone who has tenure, but if you are a student the correct mode of address for teachers by default is "Professor" unless they have a PhD (in which case its Doctor, and you will annoy them if you call them a professor even if they do have tenure). Conventions over mode of address can sometimes cause as much confusion as they do clarification.

Formless wrote: ↑2023-04-11 12:41am Actually, speaking of aquatic mammals, that does make me wonder what the career path for species with particularly exotic environmental needs looks like. I remember there being one DS9 episode where they have a science officer come aboard who is among a species that evolved on a low gravity planet, and needs a wheelchair in order to live and work among most other species in Starfleet. So it isn't just the dolphins that have to put up with sub-optimal ship environments in order to work in Starfleet. Do these species ever get to command ships and starbases? Something to think about.

I believe some of the novels have had Horta crewmembers, but those aren't cannon, but Horta can exist in Human-comfortable conditions. There have been some other types who required special breathing apparatus (Will Crusher was friends with one during one episode, and met another of the same species in a different episode).

Live action Star Trek has budgetary considerations when it comes to depicting non-humans and non-humanoids. You find more diversity in animated treatments and novels.

Formless wrote: ↑2023-04-11 01:02am I think the issue is that Star Trek respects the naval tradition that whoever is in command of a ship has the right to be called "captain" as a formality regardless of what their actual rank is. Much like how the word "professor" technically means someone who has tenure, but if you are a student the correct mode of address for teachers by default is "Professor" unless they have a PhD (in which case its Doctor, and you will annoy them if you call them a professor even if they do have tenure). Conventions over mode of address can sometimes cause as much confusion as they do clarification.

While that Tradition is maintained and referenced on DS9 when Dax was in command of the Defiant, most examples we see have the substantive rank of Captain not just the position. e.g. Ransom of the nova class Equinox held the rank of Captain with four pips on his collar and it's a matter of plot relevance that he and Janeway have equal rank and command authority is decided by how cool their ship is. (Rather than seniority for some reason)

It would make more sense for the more powerful ship to have the more senior Captain (under most circumstances)

Solauren wrote: ↑2023-04-09 08:24pm the old FASA Star Trek ships had species specific crewed FLEETS mentioned (i.e the Blue FLeet was ships entirely crewed by Andorians).

We know from Lower Decks and DSC 100% now, although we knew as far back as TNG, that member worlds operate their own, independent fleets as well as contributing to Starfleet.

Having segregated ships seems like a bad choice, but in reality it's probably more logistical than anything else. We know that Vulcans tend to be more comfortable at a higher temperature than humans, they think humans smell terrible, and sometimes have trouble interacting with so many emotional people.

There's plenty of Vulcans who "suck it up" and don't care, but there are also alot of Vulcans who would just be comfortable in their own environment. Makes sense though... imagine how sort of hellish it would be to be the lone human on a Vulcan-crewed ship... hot, dry, bland food, etc.

I would wager to guess Andorians and Tellarites are just less likely to be in Starfleet at all, preferring to join their own fleet. Starfleet *IS* still a primarily human organization, with human roots, based out of Earth. That might be a particularly popular notion for many aliens.

We do at least hear of some alien captains in dialogue, and we've seen them here and there. "Notable" ships are tough... they're going to be the "hero" ships and for real-world reasons, they're going to be human.

At the very least, while not expressly canon, "word of God" from Matalas is that Shon was Captain of the Enterprise-F, Shelby was just there in a ceremonial role to decommission it.

I expect that among all species there are individuals interested in serving on an integrated ship, and certain ships are set up that way either for diplomatic purposes (see how inclusive we are!) and/or to take advantage of different species' strengths and cover their weaknesses.

For a lot of other individuals working on a ship that is predominantly their own species may be preferable for any number of non-bigoted reasons, from different physical requirements of species to, perhaps, lower level personnel first serving on their own worlds' fleets for training purposes or local needs or to gain initial experience prior to serving on a more integrated ship.

We tend to see more Human ships, or with even the integrated ships still dominated by Humans partly due to meta reasons, and possibly, in-universe, because a Human-centric environment might be sort of in the middle of the range for many specise. Human comfort might be warn for an Andorian, but tolerable, chilly for Vulcans or Cardassians but again tolerable, and so on and so forth. A mix of Vulcans and Tellarites might not work that well, but humans seem to have tolerance for both of those species. Humans are not, by and large, telepathic, especially strong, or notable for many other traits in which they excel but perhaps having physical requirements in the middle range and greater tolerance for those not of their species (mostly) might be their "superpower". It might also be why some individuals of singular nature for Starfleet (Saru being the first Kelpian, Commander Data, Odo early in Deep Space Nine) seem to wind up on Human ships or facilities

Broomstick wrote: ↑2023-05-23 10:13am Humans are not, by and large, telepathic, especially strong, or notable for many other traits in which they excel but perhaps having physical requirements in the middle range and greater tolerance for those not of their species (mostly) might be their "superpower".

This nails it on the head, and something that I think goes somewhat unappreciated.

Humans do so well in Star Trek largely because we are so... average?

I would say, riffing off my earlier note that Vulcans think we smell terrible, humans seem to have more dulled sense compared to alot of aliens. Vulcans apparently have a very sensitive sense of smell as well as some mild telepathic sense. Betazoids are telepathic, giving them a "sixth sense". Ferengi have incredibly sensitive hearing.

I wonder if some other aliens we know alittle less about have some especially honed sense that just haven't really heard much about. Maybe Tellarites prefer dimmer lights, having acute night vision (or, maybe alternative, being Pig-People, Tellarites just smell terrible to EVERYONE). Andorians could well come down to a temperature issue... they're from an ice planet, I have to imagine they prefer colder temperatures that would prove most uncomfortable to others.

I truly don't think "bigotry" plays a large role in any of this. There may SOME latent bigotry... as progressive as Trek is it still exists... Vulcans still might not particularly love working closely with Andorians...

One also can not over look species psychological make-up.

I can imagine a Vulcan (logical and detached) being on a ship full of super expressive and emotional beings difficult and challenging.

Solauren wrote: ↑2023-05-24 07:52pm One also can not over look species psychological make-up.

I can imagine a Vulcan (logical and detached) being on a ship full of super expressive and emotional beings difficult and challenging.

We need only look at the snippet we get of life on a Vulcan ship to show this.

Even a Vulcan who was ever so slightly more prone to "outbursts" was considered a major disruption to the ship. And such outbursts were... suggesting they study something of interest in more depth...

Yeah in the comedy cartoon show. I'm not we can take that as accurate dynamic of how all Vulcan ships work. Rule Of Funny after all.