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Lord Revan wrote: ↑2023-08-07 06:24pm I suspect most starfleet officers have at least basic training at starship piloting and navigation so if the only person available to pilot a ship happens to be a science officer the ship ain't screwed, sure they wouldn't as good at as dedicated helmsman but could still do well enough that the ship might be able to get to a starbase to recrew (or handle the job during the graveyard shift).

I think that's absolutely true, but I don't think that affects the uniform colors. Sure anyone CAN fly the ship, but they aren't going to go change their uniform before they take the post.

If they're going to be reassigned long-term, then yes, just like Geordie switched when he went from Conn to Engineering, or Worf from Tactical to Command, or even something like TNG "Chain of Command" when Jellico removes Riker and Data becomes XO, he's in Red. It was a long-term transfer (at the time).

If it's a temporary move, they just... man the position.

Starfleet has a fairly complicated hierarchy of prestige. Take O'Brian for example... he was Tactical Officer on the Rutledge, and then got "promoted" to Transporter Chief on the Enterprise... and then "promoted" again to "Chief of Operations" on DS9... which is weird because "Operations" on DS9 was clearly "Engineering", although I suppose the departments and responsibilities are a bit different from a ship to a station. A station doesn't really need all the starship "Operations" things, so Ops and Engineering just get lumped together on a station.

Side note there, I also think sometimes there's a bit of Captain's prerogative on positions. "Science Officers" seem to be a choice. E-D didn't have one, DS9 did, VOY didn't (until Seven, who essentially becomes one without the title). Seems like a Captain can have "Operations" take over general science duties (while specific scientific departments would have their own heads), OR they can separate out some of the duties from Ops and assign a "Science Officer" to direct everything. In the case of DS9, seems to be the case... Dax handles all the science Ops duties while O'Brian handles the Engineering and Logistics end of things.

I like how Worf's role is never super clearly defined, but in reality Worf is probably the most important person on the station. Yeah, Sisko commands the station operations... but Worf is coordinating fleet activity in Bajor Sector.

Evilchumlee wrote: ↑2023-08-08 08:59amStarfleet has a fairly complicated hierarchy of prestige. Take O'Brian for example... he was Tactical Officer on the Rutledge, and then got "promoted" to Transporter Chief on the Enterprise... and then "promoted" again to "Chief of Operations" on DS9... which is weird because "Operations" on DS9 was clearly "Engineering", although I suppose the departments and responsibilities are a bit different from a ship to a station. A station doesn't really need all the starship "Operations" things, so Ops and Engineering just get lumped together on a station.

Going from acting tactical officer (a field promotion which I got the impression that Miles didn't exactly volunteer for anyway) to senior NCO for Transporter Ops aboard the flagship doesn't seem like a particular step down, and on DS9 he seems have been senior NCO for the whole station.

Also in regards to the Enterprise (NCC-1701-D) while it doesn't come up often it's implied (if not outright stated) that Data is the head of the Science department, it's possible that his position as the head of the Ops department is a more senior one which is why he wears gold and not blue.

Interestingly the uniform you wear might not always be the most senior position you hold, Spock was the XO of the Enterprise (NCC-1701) and did wear the blue of science instead of the gold of command. While Riker and "Number one" wore the respective colors for the command branch during their time as XO.

Lord Revan wrote: ↑2023-08-08 01:26pm Also in regards to the Enterprise (NCC-1701-D) while it doesn't come up often it's implied (if not outright stated) that Data is the head of the Science department, it's possible that his position as the head of the Ops department is a more senior one which is why he wears gold and not blue.

I think by the TNG-era, by and large "Operations" encompasses "Science" as a bridge position and potentially is responsible for overall science, erm, operations on the ship. The individual science discipline heads then report to Operations.

This is total and complete conjecture with only weak, observational evidence but *I THINK* a Senior-level/Bridge "Science Officer" is only present on smaller ships/bases that don't have large, individualized science departments. The 1701 has a smallish crew and we never hear of entire science departments... they have, on occasion, a few specialists around. So... they have a "Science" officer who is a generalist who can do a bit of everything. Same with DS9, there's no science departments, so they got Dax as a "Science" officer.

On bigger ships, like the E-D, they don't NEED a science generalist. They have specialists for everything. They just need someone to organize it all, which gets lumped into operations.

Voyager is something of an outlier with Harry Kim essentially pulling the same duty as Data, but on a smaller ship... that's where I think some Captain's prerogative comes in. Janeway COULD have potentially had a Science Officer on the bridge, but she didn't need one. Janeway WAS a science officer herself. So even though Voyager didn't have huge science departments, she could handle the science generalist role herself and just needed an Ops chief.

Interestingly the uniform you wear might not always be the most senior position you hold, Spock was the XO of the Enterprise (NCC-1701) and did wear the blue of science instead of the gold of command. While Riker and "Number one" wore the respective colors for the command branch during their time as XO.

Which is why i'm going with positions not always coinciding with department.

Although I do think that's another thing that changed a bit from the 23rd to 24th centuries. I don't think there was a full-time, pure XO position. There was a "First Officer", who ALSO held another position. Department didn't matter, just the most senior officer.

Later on, the XO position becomes full-time in Command Department.

Evilchumlee wrote: ↑2023-08-08 04:46pm Voyager is something of an outlier with Harry Kim essentially pulling the same duty as Data, but on a smaller ship... that's where I think some Captain's prerogative comes in. Janeway COULD have potentially had a Science Officer on the bridge, but she didn't need one. Janeway WAS a science officer herself. So even though Voyager didn't have huge science departments, she could handle the science generalist role herself and just needed an Ops chief.

Kim is usually low rank for Ops, Data is unusually high. SNW/Disc seems to have LTs in the slot. (Mitchel and Owosekun respectively). Data may only have high rank because he's also the second officer. (But otoh when Data "dies" Worf moving to ops is seen as a promotion)

Although I do think that's another thing that changed a bit from the 23rd to 24th centuries. I don't think there was a full-time, pure XO position. There was a "First Officer", who ALSO held another position. Department didn't matter, just the most senior officer.

Later on, the XO position becomes full-time in Command Department.

Except Una is command Division. I can't remember if Saru was command or science when he was Lorca's Number 1. Captains having a certain latitude about organisation makes senses as an explanation to paper over all the cracks in the franchise continuity.

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Some one mentioned Pike's promotion to fleet captain before in relation to this discussion (or maybe it was the captain's rank on!) And that led to these thoughts that don't fit anywhere else:

Tangentially, given the Hornblower/Age of sail royal navy inspiration of Star Trek, Fleet Captain being a temporary position really works apart from it being descripted as a promotion. In the RN of Napoleonic times Commodore wasn't a rank, it was a writ of authority give to trusted captains. (promotion to admiral being done strictly on seniority). Fleet Captain feels like a good equivalent to 2nd class commodore that is someone who commands multiple ship while directly captaining one of them. A 1st class commodore is an Admiral writ small with a flag captain commanding their ship while they command the fleet/squadron/whatever.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2023-08-08 05:22pm Kim is usually low rank for Ops, Data is unusually high. SNW/Disc seems to have LTs in the slot. (Mitchel and Owosekun respectively). Data may only have high rank because he's also the second officer. (But otoh when Data "dies" Worf moving to ops is seen as a promotion)

I do think it somewhat depends on the ship.

On the E-D, Ops is absolutely seen as the "highest" position.

Except Una is command Division. I can't remember if Saru was command or science when he was Lorca's Number 1. Captains having a certain latitude about organisation makes senses as an explanation to paper over all the cracks in the franchise continuity.

SNW does throw a bit of a wrench in that, but oddly enough DSC still works. Saru is still Science Officer after becoming XO.

Although, i'm not sure Una isn't Tactical, which actually seems to fall under Command in the era... and tends to get the odd designation of "Navigator"... Chekov was in Gold, was the "Navigator" while Sulu was "Helmsan", but the "Navigator" was definitely responsible for firing the weapons...

I really do think given Starfleet's generally lax organization all around, alot of this really truly is just up to the Captain. Una definitely at one time was "Navigator", even recently as DSC S2. Pike may have just found her more valuable pulling full time XO duty and working as more of a "bridge floater", manning whatever station might be most beneficial at the moment.

Some one mentioned Pike's promotion to fleet captain before in relation to this discussion (or maybe it was the captain's rank on!) And that led to these thoughts that don't fit anywhere else:

Tangentially, given the Hornblower/Age of sail royal navy inspiration of Star Trek, Fleet Captain being a temporary position really works apart from it being descripted as a promotion. In the RN of Napoleonic times Commodore wasn't a rank, it was a writ of authority give to trusted captains. (promotion to admiral being done strictly on seniority). Fleet Captain feels like a good equivalent to 2nd class commodore that is someone who commands multiple ship while directly captaining one of them. A 1st class commodore is an Admiral writ small with a flag captain commanding their ship while they command the fleet/squadron/whatever.

This makes alot of sense to me. We really don't see "Fleet Captain" very often at all.

It wouldn't surprise me if "Fleet Captain" is always a temporary rank, with "Commodore" being a more permanent version of it, although often still seldom used.

I think the general terminology from that still works. "Fleet Captain" is a rank bestowed on a temporary basis to give additional authority when necessary. "Commodore" is an uncommon rank, something of a permanent "Fleet Captain" given when the situation requires it.

La Forge in PIC S3 makes sense... he commands a station and several ships. Granted, the ships are all museum ships... BUT he does "command" them. He's not quite an Admiral...

I can see "Commodore" being a position-dependent rank. Higher than a Captain, but not functioning in an Admiral capacity. It's not particularly often that happens, but when it does, there's a rank for it.

Just got around to the musical episode and isn't SNW a little early for K'T'ingas? They didn't show up until TMP, period appropriate would've been D7s or something even earlier.

Batman wrote: ↑2023-08-09 08:15pm Just got around to the musical episode and isn't SNW a little early for K'T'ingas? They didn't show up until TMP, period appropriate would've been D7s or something even earlier.

I think they're implying D-7 and K'T'inga are the same thing same way then as those are using the model for D-7 from DSC not the Movie model. It's possible that D-7 was the "project name" for the ship (like the various "object" tanks the Soviets made) while "K'T'inga" is the actual ship class name and what we see from TMP onwards is a refit like with the Connie.

Batman wrote: ↑2023-08-09 08:15pm Just got around to the musical episode and isn't SNW a little early for K'T'ingas? They didn't show up until TMP, period appropriate would've been D7s or something even earlier.

That was an odd name drop. Looks like we're going with "D7 IS K'Tinga" now.

My take on it, being somewhat of a canon literalist and generally trying to make EVERYTHING work even when it absolutely doesn't, that "D7" is a more general classification for the type of ship, while "K'Tinga" is the actual class name.

Some D7's are K'Tinga's, but all K'Tinga's are D7's.

It actually reconciles a few things. The Discovery "D7" that showed up in Season 1... ugh... which was not even close. Also the D7 that showed up in Voyager, that was like, somewhere between an old school D7 and a K'Tinga.

The slightly more annoying part is that the model used is the DSC D7, not... a K'Tinga as we know them. nuTrek really likes to change ships for no good reason, but it seems like there are just multiple versions of D7 K'Tinga's now.

It's not outlandish... Klingons tend to be totally ok using the same basic hull design for multiple ships over multiple generations. A 22nd century "D5" is effectively visually identical to a 23rd century D7, just like there are several iterations of the Bird of Prey.

SNW S2 Finale spoilers

Good:
*Hints there's more to the Gorn than Season 1 implied. Excellent.
*Ortegas is awesome.
*M'Benga and Chapel's conversation while treating the sick.
*Gorn CGI is damn good for a tv show, they must have been saving all season for this
*zero g punch up on Cayuga's bridge.
*Scotty's reunion with Pellia.

Eh:
*Chapel is the sole survivor of the Cayuga by dint of saved by canon.
*Wreckage around Chapel was ''tin foil''.
*God mode Engineer Scotty. I wanted less TOS characters not more.
*Gorn are more xenomorphy than ever, especially with the focus on the tail of the adult Gorn.
*Enterprise is once again being rocked by fire and people are dying and no orders to return Fire?!
*Cliffhanger. Ugh.


Huh:
* What was up with Spock wanting to apologise to Chapel? Maybe this was written with the script for Subspace Rhaposdy to hand? But she dumped him, he has nothing to apologise for as far as I remember.

Ghetto edit: Maybe this was written without the script for Subspace Rhaposdy to hand?

Or there was a deleted scene from SR?

I don't know how I felt about this one.

One of my first things is... ugh Scotty. I don't even mind that he's there but don't love the characterization. Simon Pegg got away with "goofy alive squirrelly" Scotty because he's just, really good. This guy... just... no. Scotty was always kind of a bad ass. This guy very much was not. I'm fine with the whole miracle worker schitck, even though it's almost sort of canon that it was an exaggeration. But... damn they could have done better than that.

I absolutely despise these Gorn. Why are they are raving, barbaric monsters? Why does Starfleet know so much about them? Why use the Gorn if you're not going to even attempt to make them Gorn? Just make a weird new alien to be your monster aliens.

Ortegas got some time. Cool. Low key becoming one of my favorite characters on the show, and more shocking because I thought I would just be annoyed by her. I had a very wrong first impression/assumption Oretegas was going to be a "lesbian power!" character. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, just not for me. But turns out... I was totally wrong. She's actually pretty awesome.

I continue to generally dislike the focus on Chapel. I just don't find her to be likable and show is trying SO hard to make Chapel happen, at the expense of other, better characters.

The cliffhanger is fine, kind of a Trek tradition. My qualm here is that we're getting a situation with similar implications to last seasons finale... Pike is still very much on the "Let's talk it out" thing, which is EXACTLY why so many problems happened in the last seasons finale. I feel like the next part will totally be resolved with peacefully by the end, which throws the themes all over the place.

I had an idea for the Gorn... I don't think it's where they are going, but I think it could be kind of neat... given the Gorn have become essentially Xenomorph's, lean into it. Gorn are super reptile-alieny right now but... what if the offspring implanted into other races take on some of their traits? It might end up with something a bit more humanoid by the time Kirk fights one on Cestus III.

* What was up with Spock wanting to apologise to Chapel? Maybe this was written with the script for Subspace Rhaposdy to hand? But she dumped him, he has nothing to apologise for as far as I remember.

I think it's more Spock feeling bad. Chapel got GREAT news about a life-changing event and the only thing Spock took away from it was "I'm getting dumped".

Given my general dislike of Chapel now, it does make me happy that a few years later, she throws herself at him repeatedly and Spock is just like "Nah, i'm good."

Is it me, or did the Gorn unprovokedly attack and destroy the Cayuga in what to everyone's knowledge (except the Gorn's maybe) was international waters? How is that NOT an act of war? I think they're overdoing the (the Federation will avoid conflict at ANY cost aspect of TNG+ Trek.

Batman wrote: ↑2023-08-11 07:55pm Is it me, or did the Gorn unprovokedly attack and destroy the Cayuga in what to everyone's knowledge (except the Gorn's maybe) was international waters? How is that NOT an act of war? I think they're overdoing the (the Federation will avoid conflict at ANY cost aspect of TNG+ Trek.

I think it was alittle more than that.

The Federation THOUGHT that colony was in "international waters". The Gorn disagreed, the communication from the Gorn indicated they claimed the system.

So there's a few options...
The Federation can reject the claim and attack... causing a war.
The Federation can recognize the claim and attack anyway... causing a war.
OR
The Federation can accept the claim and... not really do anything. No war.

The last option tracks with the Federation we know. They tend to frown upon leaving Federation space and making colonies, and tend to take the position "too bad, told you so" when something happens to them.

Contrary to what you said, go back to the S1 finale and part of the entire theme of that was sometimes trying to find the peaceful solution is the wrong answer.

The Gorn declared they claimed that space AFTER THE FACT. Unless you want me to believe the the Federation knowingly let the colony be established in what was KNOWN to be GORN space, it WAS international waters far as they knew. If the Gorn wanted that space they should've told people.

Batman wrote: ↑2023-08-11 09:10pm The Gorn declared they claimed that space AFTER THE FACT. Unless you want me to believe the the Federation knowingly let the colony be established in what was KNOWN to be GORN space, it WAS international waters far as they knew. If the Gorn wanted that space they should've told people.

It wasn't known space, but the Federation also didn't "allow" anything. Some people went and made a colony outside of Federation space.

It gets attacked.

When Starfleet shows up and says "WTF", the Gorn send them a map showing their claim.

The Federation doesn't know much about the Gorn at all at this point. That's a danger of setting up colonies outside of known Federation space... it's... an unknown area. Did the Gorn just come in and claim it after the fact? Maybe... it's also kind of irrelevant. That colony as not under Federation jurisdiction. Even if the Gorn claimed it after the fact... it changes nothing. The Federation should have acted sooner to get the colony to join.

The only issue here is the destruction of Cayuga (and Scotty's ship). But I also understand that, given how the Federation operates. They are incredibly war averse and absolutely will let things go that others would take as instant war. The Federation is likely looking at the destruction of Cayuga as unfortunate, but it was in Gorn territory and the Gorn haven't otherwise been hostile in the situation (specifically NOT attacking Enterprise, just marking their borders off.)

As for more on the episode, I am curious where it goes. Kind of the whole point of TOS "Arena" was that... the Gorn, despite looking like monsters, were not actually monsters. SNW is going in a REALLY weird direction if they're going to try to be like "Wait, no, they're not monsters afterall!" despite being about as evil and horrific as a monster can possibly be.

There were a few hints, like the note that the young Gorn weren't fighting and trying to establish dominance.

There has to be a twist coming. I'm going to call 100% right now, the crew the Gorn abducted won't be harmed. Here's a theory... we'll see how close I get.

There is a stark difference between Mature Gorn and Young Gorn. Young Gorn ARE almost mindless monsters driven by base instincts to breed and hunt. Mature Gorn spend a good deal of their time reigning in the young Gorn... what we are seeing here is actually a rescue operation by the Mature Gorn... they are trying to keep the Federation away to try to prevent more people from getting hurt and contain their young. They didn't claim the planet because they wanted it, they were setting a quarantine.

It's an unfortunate part of the Gorn species' that their young are just out control, which makes other races see them as "monsters". They try to keep a lid on them as much as possible, but it's not always possible.

That OR something similar to expanded "Predator" lore... the attacking monster Gorn are actually a small, renegade faction who don't give a shit about rules. The Gorn Hegemony proper works to try to stop them.

The "big" twist here is that the Gorn on the Cayuga wreckage wasn't trying to kill anyone... he was trying to rescue Chapel.

I'm going to hate myself for asking this, but what in the name of hell is a Moopsie? I'm not sure if it's from this series or Lower Decks and I'm not sure how to find out without spoilers.

Being unafraid of spoilers. Apparently it's from the very latest Lower Decks episode.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Moopsy obviously spoilers, i don't think it can be described without spoiler.
Spoiler

That's alright, I'm not bothered about Lower Decks spoilers: That show's tone just doesn't do it for me.

*reads the wiki page*

Well, that's a thing.

Farscape did that, her kind were used to remove the non-vegetable life from a "botanical park" asteroid.

Well I just got the season on disc and finished the last episode, not sure I'm a fan of the cliffhanger that boils down to Pike making up his mind on what he's going to do even as the Gorn are firing on the Enterprise.

The being war-averse thing never sat right with me to begin with and is a recurring theme since ignoring casus belli by the other side seems to be their default setting. It's a wonder more races haven't cottoned on to that fact.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: ↑2024-01-18 10:00pmThe being war-averse thing never sat right with me to begin with and is a recurring theme since ignoring casus belli by the other side seems to be their default setting. It's a wonder more races haven't cottoned on to that fact.

Yes, the Federation is rather averse to getting into a war. But look at how things went when the Federation entered a war. Can you come up with any examples where which could be seen as a win for the other side ?

Then there is General Order 24. We don't know exactly what it says, only that the Enterprise threatened to devastate a planet when it applied in A Taste of Armageddon. I suspect that it defines when a Starfleet captain must stop attempting to peacefully negotiate and make full use of whatever military options they have. Even if they would be starting a war.

I can see no reason to keep the General Orders a secret.

All of which would go a long way to convincing everyone else that, while they can push the Federation further than they can push most factions, they don't want to push the Federation too far.

The 7-part book series Star Trek: Vanguard comes to mind since both things happened and is in fact set in the same era, during Kirk's original tenure as captain.

• The destruction of the USS Bombay at the hands of the Tholians, an act of war which was actually covered up instead of the truth becoming public, with one hapless reporter being the fall guy.
• Following a Shedai attack which destroyed a Federation colony on Gamma Tauri IV and slaughtered the colonists, in retaliation General Order 24 was immediately issued against the planet which consisted of bombardment by the orbiting Constitution-class USS Endavour, with a nearby Klingon ship lending a hand, which glassed the planet.