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The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-07-02 10:07pm

The Bakku would have been relocated, Data was the reason the Enterprise was even there.

Pretty much, yeah.

Does that mean the Feds get practical immortality in this timeline? That's such a huge game-changer we could have a whole thread just discussing the implications of that.

Combine that with the timeline idea where Kirk survives Generations and...damn. Maybe he'd be back in command of the E-E at First Contact, with Spock, McCoy and Scotty along for the ride

Eternal_Freedom wrote: ↑2019-07-03 12:09pm

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-07-02 10:07pm

The Bakku would have been relocated, Data was the reason the Enterprise was even there.

Pretty much, yeah.

Does that mean the Feds get practical immortality in this timeline? That's such a huge game-changer we could have a whole thread just discussing the implications of that.

Combine that with the timeline idea where Kirk survives Generations and...damn. Maybe he'd be back in command of the E-E at First Contact, with Spock, McCoy and Scotty along for the ride

Well, he'd probably need a couple years in Starfleet Academy refresher courses to bring him up to date on the changes to both technology and procedure since his day, but he's James Tiberius Kirk. I'm sure he'd manage.

I call this the Dominion Is So Completely Fucked timeline.

Kirk survives Generations and gets a command?

He'll win the Dominion war by seducing the Female Changeling, and screwing her brains out so hard, he cures her of the Section 51 virus, so she can cure the Great link.

Actually they probably just Turned On the camera that was still there from season 1 where Picard was peeping around that Klingon wreck through the VISOR.

Regarding the Borg, I think there's actually wiggle room in the time line. The FIRST Borg encounter was Q's fault, the best of both worlds was the same cube, I think seven commented that "It was why the Borg took interest in the federation to begin with" which could have... At a stretch, just meant the second attempt to assimilate Earth.

First encounter: Borg access the Enterprise and recognize the ship's general lineage, but not the specific ship that destroyed their friends in the past. Enterprise escapes through mysterious finger snapping and the Borg just meander along that route until they find Earth. Cube is defeated by Data's Hack, but ultimately the Borg conclude the federation isn't a big deal. There's not much there they don't have, one cube can take the down at any time, no biggie.

Enterprise E shows up, Borg realize there's a time loop in play and send the cube knowing that just the sphere has to go back, so asismilation is a bonus but no big deal.

Alternate (original time line):
Borg dont go back in time, Cochrane launches his ship, practically no changes to the timeline, Borg might not even bother the federation specifically after Best of Both world's, because there's nothing really worth the effort there. First contact might not happen without the Enterprise E, and if Enterprise D is even just missing in action, the E might not be commissioned for a much longer period of time.

Themightytom wrote: ↑2019-07-05 03:48pm Actually they probably just Turned On the camera that was still there from season 1 where Picard was peeping around that Klingon wreck through the VISOR.

Regarding the Borg, I think there's actually wiggle room in the time line. The FIRST Borg encounter was Q's fault, the best of both worlds was the same cube, I think seven commented that "It was why the Borg took interest in the federation to begin with" which could have... At a stretch, just meant the second attempt to assimilate Earth.

Was it ever explicitly stated to be the same cube, or just theorized?

In any case, its heavily implied that the Borg were poking around the Neutral Zone before then. The war was coming, whether Q acted as he did or not (its often theorized that Q was actually helping the Federation, in a twisted way, by giving them a heads-up about what was coming, and some of the Q Who dialogue seems to support that IIRC).

First encounter: Borg access the Enterprise and recognize the ship's general lineage, but not the specific ship that destroyed their friends in the past. Enterprise escapes through mysterious finger snapping and the Borg just meander along that route until they find Earth. Cube is defeated by Data's Hack, but ultimately the Borg conclude the federation isn't a big deal. There's not much there they don't have, one cube can take the down at any time, no biggie.

Enterprise E shows up, Borg realize there's a time loop in play and send the cube knowing that just the sphere has to go back, so asismilation is a bonus but no big deal.

Hmm, would the Borg have known that the E-E existed before they sent that cube? Was their any contact between the Federation and Borg that would have allowed them to know that between Generations and First Contact? I don't think so.

But in any case, the designs are similar enough that they ought to have been able to put it together on that alone.

Alternate (original time line):
Borg dont go back in time, Cochrane launches his ship, practically no changes to the timeline, Borg might not even bother the federation specifically after Best of Both world's, because there's nothing really worth the effort there. First contact might not happen without the Enterprise E, and if Enterprise D is even just missing in action, the E might not be commissioned for a much longer period of time.

Maybe the Borg would have made the Federation less of a priority, or come later, without the loop, yeah.

Still, First Contact would play out differently, and you'd expect the ripple effects of that to be massive.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-07-05 10:04pm

Themightytom wrote: ↑2019-07-05 03:48pm Actually they probably just Turned On the camera that was still there from season 1 where Picard was peeping around that Klingon wreck through the VISOR.

Regarding the Borg, I think there's actually wiggle room in the time line. The FIRST Borg encounter was Q's fault, the best of both worlds was the same cube, I think seven commented that "It was why the Borg took interest in the federation to begin with" which could have... At a stretch, just meant the second attempt to assimilate Earth.

Was it ever explicitly stated to be the same cube, or just theorized?

In any case, its heavily implied that the Borg were poking around the Neutral Zone before then. The war was coming, whether Q acted as he did or not (its often theorized that Q was actually helping the Federation, in a twisted way, by giving them a heads-up about what was coming, and some of the Q Who dialogue seems to support that IIRC).

First encounter: Borg access the Enterprise and recognize the ship's general lineage, but not the specific ship that destroyed their friends in the past. Enterprise escapes through mysterious finger snapping and the Borg just meander along that route until they find Earth. Cube is defeated by Data's Hack, but ultimately the Borg conclude the federation isn't a big deal. There's not much there they don't have, one cube can take the down at any time, no biggie.

Enterprise E shows up, Borg realize there's a time loop in play and send the cube knowing that just the sphere has to go back, so asismilation is a bonus but no big deal.

Hmm, would the Borg have known that the E-E existed before they sent that cube? Was their any contact between the Federation and Borg that would have allowed them to know that between Generations and First Contact? I don't think so.

But in any case, the designs are similar enough that they ought to have been able to put it together on that alone.

Alternate (original time line):
Borg dont go back in time, Cochrane launches his ship, practically no changes to the timeline, Borg might not even bother the federation specifically after Best of Both world's, because there's nothing really worth the effort there. First contact might not happen without the Enterprise E, and if Enterprise D is even just missing in action, the E might not be commissioned for a much longer period of time.

Maybe the Borg would have made the Federation less of a priority, or come later, without the loop, yeah.

Still, First Contact would play out differently, and you'd expect the ripple effects of that to be massive.

It's theorized but not confirmed that the J-25 Cube is the same as the one in BOBW. For that matter, it's likely that the Borg Ship from the Neutral Zone was a Cube as well given how it scooped the Fed/ Romulan outposts in the neutral zone. We know that Cubes were prowling around Fed Space for decades given what happened to the Hansens.

It's hard to tell if the time-travel events of First Contact / ENT Regeneration always occur and are "fixed-points" given that loops and alternate timelines happen in Star Trek."However, "Q-Who" indicates that Q had already messed with the timeline. According to Guinan (who is time sensitive), Q set things into motion and brought official First Contact with the Borg far sooner than it was supposed to be. While the Borg apparently decided that the Feds weren't worth invading after they destroyed the outposts along the Neutral Zone, they clearly changed their mind after the events of J-25. I don't think it has to be some grand scheme on Q's part - he's infamous for being temperamental and causing chaos everywhere he went. Picard believed that Q did the right thing for the wrong reason by kicking them out of their complacency, and I don't think subsequent events contradict this. Q might have sent the E-D to J-25 knowing full well that by doing so he would create a loop and/or alternate timeline, and did it just to put Picard and Riker back in their place.

That being said, this is past the point of "Q-Who" and BOBW, so the Borg invasion in STFC would likely still happen. The Feds had already managed to knock the Cube's shields down, cause heavy damage to its outer hull (including the weak point) and cause power fluctuations before the E-E showed up. Even without the Enterprise and Picard's knowledge absence I think Starfleet would still win eventually, though with heavier casualties. Again, the time-travel may or may not happen, depending. I imagine the additional casualties wouldn't help when the Feds end up facing the Dominion.

I don't think so, the entire theme of First Contact was to restore the timeline. If they hadn't done so, they should have noticed when they got back so it stands to reason the original timeline wasn't so different from the one that resulted.

Themightytom wrote: ↑2019-07-05 10:51pm I don't think so, the entire theme of First Contact was to restore the timeline. If they hadn't done so, they should have noticed when they got back so it stands to reason the original timeline wasn't so different from the one that resulted.

The entire theme was to try and restore that particular timeline- they’d never know what the timeline would look like without J-25 and subsequent events happening since Q would have already changed it, from their perspective.

That wouldn’t be the only time Q creates new timelines either, as he does something similar in “All Good Things”. And we see that there are an infinite number of alternate timelines in “Parallels”, so it’s not like a fixed loop is strictly necessary.

I wouldn’t be surprised if acts like creating timelines / timeloops just because he felt insulted was exactly the kind of thing that got him kicked out of the Continuum and having his powers stripped tbh. Not to mention torturing other species for fun.

Tribble wrote: ↑2019-07-05 11:05pm

Themightytom wrote: ↑2019-07-05 10:51pm I don't think so, the entire theme of First Contact was to restore the timeline. If they hadn't done so, they should have noticed when they got back so it stands to reason the original timeline wasn't so different from the one that resulted.

The entire theme was to try and restore that particular timeline- they’d never know what the timeline would look like without J-25 and subsequent events happening since Q would have already changed it, from their perspective.

That wouldn’t be the only time Q creates new timelines either, as he does something similar in “All Good Things”. And we see that there are an infinite number of alternate timelines in “Parallels”, so it’s not like a fixed loop is strictly necessary.

Sorry Tribble I actually agree, I just posted at nearly the same time as you. I was responding to TRR's prediction that TFC would still happen but vastly different.

Q could totally change the timeline without there awareness, this is demonstrated when, in most of the times he does so, only the people he chooses are aware, All Good Things being one example, Picard's It's A Wonderful Life homage, another, where he relives his entire life without risk and no one around him notices. It IS possible he just shuffles the deck rather than recreating whole new realities with the snap of his fingers, and as she has demonstrated, Guinan might be the only one who notices.

Themightytom wrote: ↑2019-07-05 11:46pm

Tribble wrote: ↑2019-07-05 11:05pm

Themightytom wrote: ↑2019-07-05 10:51pm I don't think so, the entire theme of First Contact was to restore the timeline. If they hadn't done so, they should have noticed when they got back so it stands to reason the original timeline wasn't so different from the one that resulted.

The entire theme was to try and restore that particular timeline- they’d never know what the timeline would look like without J-25 and subsequent events happening since Q would have already changed it, from their perspective.

That wouldn’t be the only time Q creates new timelines either, as he does something similar in “All Good Things”. And we see that there are an infinite number of alternate timelines in “Parallels”, so it’s not like a fixed loop is strictly necessary.

Sorry Tribble I actually agree, I just posted at nearly the same time as you. I was responding to TRR's prediction that TFC would still happen but vastly different.

Q could totally change the timeline without there awareness, this is demonstrated when, in most of the times he does so, only the people he chooses are aware, All Good Things being one example, Picard's It's A Wonderful Life homage, another, where he relives his entire life without risk and no one around him notices. It IS possible he just shuffles the deck rather than recreating whole new realities with the snap of his fingers, and as she has demonstrated, Guinan might be the only one who notices.

No worries, I just thought you typed really fast

Would Kirk still pop out in Generations? He only left the Nexus because Picard went in and convinced him to leave. And that only happened because Picard decided that being able to go "any place, any time" meant going back a few minutes to try and beat Sauron in hand-to-hand combat again, and thus he needed help. He didn't even know Kirk was in there until Echo Guinan told him.

I'm pretty sure he'd still be in the Nexus trying to make an omelet or something.

I guess it would depend on whether whichever officer gets the assignment instead of Picard follows his plan of beaming over to the planet, and gets sucked into the Nexus. If so, Guinan might point them to Kirk for backup as well. Or maybe not- maybe she only did that because she's friends with Picard.

Of course, that would depend on Soran surviving the station attack in this altered timeline, and escaping Federation custody long enough to carry out his plan.

Kirk will not leave the Nexus until someone convinces him to do it.
It is unlikely enough for them to even know Kirk is in the Nexus because that came around from magic Guinan.

That said, if someone does get into the Nexus... maybe they will take the fucking hint and use the 'any time' aspect to do some really interesting things to the ST timeline.
I.E Kirk never gets lost with the E-B
Tells the Federation about the Borg, Dominion etc ...

Soran - This guy took advantage of an emotionally devastated Picard and Data. Another Federation ship and crew should not fall for that... unless of course it ended in a substitution of the Voyager crew in place of Enterprise.

First Contact - This might not happen. It kinda depends on interpretation of Voyager timeline of S8472. Picard is not going to help the Borg so S8472 will obliterate the Borg without mercy which could throw off the Borg attacking Earth. Alternatively, the Borg may have been trying to move to the Alpha Quadrant to get away from the ass kicking they were getting in the Delta Quadrant or create a new universe they could escape to. Entirely depends on interpretation of the time travel mechanics and continuity.

I think the Federation would be able to beat the Cube eventually. The costs might be significantly higher to the point the Federation is weakened in the war against the Dominion but the outcome should still remain the same as it was. All the players are still in play for the Dominon War to play out like it did unless the Borg successfully go on a rampage in the AQ until they get hunted by S8472 anyway. (With Picard and the E-D Stardrive section leading the charge for an extra laugh)

This ignores the time travel aspect of the Borg which is a completely open to interpretation of mechanics.
If you think the Borg came because they were summoned... either that signal never goes out and the Federation timeline becomes a paradox or the Borg come and assimilate the Federation in the past leading to a paradox that should break the universe or create a new one that has nothing to do with Picard and co. stuck in the Delta Q universe.

Insurrection - Without Picard and Data... the Federation improves medical tech. That said, I doubt it would completely change the Federation. If the plan worked and they concentrated the youth magic, would the Sona really give that up ?
They need it to live and the Federation would be in an awkward position trying to take it by force.
Even if they did take it / worked out a deal to have it... the magic would be limited to what they take from the planet which results in a finite resource. They cannot replicate it and no other planet supposedly has this magic.

I can actually see the Federation collapsing from civil war because they cannot distribute this magic to everyone fast enough or the entire galaxy erupting into war to obtain the magic for themselves.

Nemesis - This is a bit of an interesting one.
Would Picard and Co. be back by now ?
Would Picard be the Admiral ordering another ship to investigate Shinzon and co. ?

Overall, I can either see this film working out mostly the same if the writers remained consistent with more plot contrivance or completely different because the characters have altered significantly.

Themightytom wrote:

Now that I think of it what about that wormhole which leads from the AQ to the DQ? While the entrance in the DQ is unstable the E-D crew would likely make their way to its last known coordinates and see if there was someway to lure it over long enough to make the journey home. Voyager was able to do it and they only failed because of Janeway’s ridiculous insistence on capturing the Ferengi at all costs. IMO Picard would have handled that situation a lot better; even if we assumed Picard was determined to get the Ferengi off the planet he probably would have just offered them a ride home right from the start. And even if they refused he certainly wouldn’t have beamed them back down onto the planet like Janeway did.

If the E-D is able to pull that off (and I don’t see why they couldn’t) it’d be a pretty short trip overall. Once back in the AQ they may even find a way to stabilize the DQ side of wormhole permanently, or set up a beacon on the DQ side so that they could draw the wormhole to that location when needed. That would open up some interesting possibilities IMO.

If they made it back then, what would be going on? Would it be around the time of STFC?

Tribble wrote: ↑2019-07-07 11:30pm Picard decided that being able to go "any place, any time" meant going back a few minutes to try and beat Sauron in hand-to-hand combat again, and thus he needed help.

That's an amazing typo but I don't think Picard can beat Sauron in hand to hand combat even with Kirk's help.

NecronLord wrote: ↑2019-07-13 05:16pm

Tribble wrote: ↑2019-07-07 11:30pm Picard decided that being able to go "any place, any time" meant going back a few minutes to try and beat Sauron in hand-to-hand combat again, and thus he needed help.

That's an amazing typo but I don't think Picard can beat Sauron in hand to hand combat even with Kirk's help.

On the plus side, I think the Picard speech to The Mouth of Sauron would be an amazing way to end the Lord of the Rings trilogy as he makes everlasting peace between the Orcs and Numenor.

The wormhole was in season 3, so there's no guarantee the same things would happen that brought Voyager there, a galaxy class is also slower than an intrepid, but if they DID find the Ferengi there I am sure the avalanche of stupid mis-stakes that screwed the Voyager wouldn't happen. The Doctor took his time reporting the crewman's injury, Tuvok waited for Janeway to tell him to close the shuttle bay doors, even Tom was busy narrating his plan to head to the wormhole instead of just doing it, that was a whole three stooges level debacle, where on a Galaxy class ship, they'd probably still be looking for the shuttle bay.

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-07-13 05:24pm

NecronLord wrote: ↑2019-07-13 05:16pm

Tribble wrote: ↑2019-07-07 11:30pm Picard decided that being able to go "any place, any time" meant going back a few minutes to try and beat Sauron in hand-to-hand combat again, and thus he needed help.

That's an amazing typo but I don't think Picard can beat Sauron in hand to hand combat even with Kirk's help.

On the plus side, I think the Picard speech to The Mouth of Sauron would be an amazing way to end the Lord of the Rings trilogy as he makes everlasting peace between the Orcs and Numenor.

I just hope they wait until Data removes his emotion chip before they have him carry the Ring. Even though, an android Nazgul would probably have a sick name like The Steel Terror.

Themightytom wrote: ↑2019-07-15 10:07pm The wormhole was in season 3, so there's no guarantee the same things would happen that brought Voyager there

True, though I think the odds are a lot higher for the E-D than it was for Voyager- the E-D had sent Geordi and Data through the wormhole in "The Price" so they know where it can appear, even if its unstable. In fact, I would think that would be one of the areas they would head directly towards while they work on some kind of solution, since its on the path to the AQ anyways.

Themightytom wrote: ↑2019-07-15 10:07pm a galaxy class is also slower than an intrepid,

Although the E-D has a slower top speed, see my earlier post as to why IMO the E-D is at least comparable to Voyager in overall cruising speed. In a nutshell Voyager may be the faster sprinter but the E-D has at least equal if not greater fuel reserves and stamina for long distance travel, which makes sense given its original mission profile.

Themightytom wrote: ↑2019-07-15 10:07pmbut if they DID find the Ferengi there I am sure the avalanche of stupid mis-stakes that screwed the Voyager wouldn't happen. The Doctor took his time reporting the crewman's injury, Tuvok waited for Janeway to tell him to close the shuttle bay doors, even Tom was busy narrating his plan to head to the wormhole instead of just doing it, that was a whole three stooges level debacle, where on a Galaxy class ship, they'd probably still be looking for the shuttle bay.

I doubt it would even get that far; Janeway actually beamed them back down after their first encounter, thus necessitating the whole "Neelix as Grand Nagus" subplot. I doubt Picard would beam them back, and IMO he'd have a much better chance at convincing the Ferengi to leave in the first place.

NeoGoomba wrote: ↑2019-07-16 08:43am

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-07-13 05:24pm

NecronLord wrote: ↑2019-07-13 05:16pm

That's an amazing typo but I don't think Picard can beat Sauron in hand to hand combat even with Kirk's help.

On the plus side, I think the Picard speech to The Mouth of Sauron would be an amazing way to end the Lord of the Rings trilogy as he makes everlasting peace between the Orcs and Numenor.

I just hope they wait until Data removes his emotion chip before they have him carry the Ring. Even though, an android Nazgul would probably have a sick name like The Steel Terror.

*Checks name* Whoops, I assumed the spelling was the same given his name sounded so similar!

Hmmm, I agree that Picard and Kirk may have some issues in hand-to-hand combat with Sauron, though it would kind of be amusing to watch Kirk and Picard try to talk him to death. Which would be more effective, the Kirk Summation or the Picard Speech?

Data as "The Steel Terror" Nazgul would be freakin' awesome. Someone needs to make a fanfic of this

Tribble wrote: ↑2019-07-16 09:41pm

NeoGoomba wrote: ↑2019-07-16 08:43am

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-07-13 05:24pm

On the plus side, I think the Picard speech to The Mouth of Sauron would be an amazing way to end the Lord of the Rings trilogy as he makes everlasting peace between the Orcs and Numenor.

I just hope they wait until Data removes his emotion chip before they have him carry the Ring. Even though, an android Nazgul would probably have a sick name like The Steel Terror.

*Checks name* Whoops, I assumed the spelling was the same given his name sounded so similar!

Hmmm, I agree that Picard and Kirk may have some issues in hand-to-hand combat with Sauron, though it would kind of be amusing to watch Kirk and Picard try to talk him to death. Which would be more effective, the Kirk Summation or the Picard Speech?

Data as "The Steel Terror" Nazgul would be freakin' awesome. Someone needs to make a fanfic of this ASAP

But what about the Prime Directive? Or do the Valar count as a post-warp civilization, so Picard can deal with their representative Gandalf?

You know, I was just watching Caretaker, and I have to have missed something, I didn't want to open a new thread on it since this was already here, but what the hell happened to the dead and injured crew members when the Caretaker beamed the crew away? They stabilized the warp core, they made a show of bringing injured crew to Sick Bay, and then everyone was beamed out abruptly, including the injured crew. Nobody was injured on the array when they arrived, for some reason the caretaker didn't bother to heal Kim and Torres, but when Janeway did a head count, the only one missing was Kim. Did the caretaker heal everyone else over the three days they were gone?

Presumably. Can't experiment on dead specimens. At least, not the kind of "experiment" (ie, medical rape for the purposes of procreation) that the Caretaker was doing.

Isn't the majority of important systems in the saucer section?
Like the sickbay, laboratories, crew quarters, holodecks, the main shuttle bay with maintenance bays, the main computer (IIRC the engineering section has a smaller one though) and the industrial replicators (or at least the shop version seen in one episode).

So, if only the engineering section of a Galaxy-class is sent into the Delta Quadrant wouldn't that be inherently underpowered except for combat and suffer overcrowding?