Anyone else think Section 31's Dominion plan was bad?

[NecronLord]

I think everyone is forgetting something.

Section 31's plan left ODO alive.

Section 31 didn't try to wipe out the dominion, they were going for a coup.

Err... what? Odo was dying of the disease the same as the other founders.

Unless you're theorizing this was unintentional and only happened because Odo was turned human/back to a changeling and then melded again. But I don't think it's ever mentioned in the series itself.

Bashir speculates that they don't.

BASHIR: Section Thirty One. They used you as a carrier, hoping you would pass on the disease to the Founders. I'm sure you were never meant to develop symptoms.
ODO: I don't care whether they meant to kill me or not. The reality is the Federation set out to destroy my people.
BASHIR: Section Thirty One aren't part of the Federation> They're a rogue organisation that
ODO: Don't split hairs with me, Doctor. They used me as an instrument to try to commit genocide. Now we may be at war with the Founders, but that's no excuse

It's a stupid plan if they want a coup anyway. How happy does he seem about the genocide of his people there? Really? Even if he becomes God of the Dominion, I can't see him failing to demand punishment of the Federation. And he would certainly find out that he'd been the carrier, and after that, well, he is a policeman. Basic deductions are his job.

[Crazedwraith]

Fair enough. My memory for late DS9 is not as specific as I thought.

[FaxModem1]

Quite. I note that seven talks about the difference between ability and knowledge in one of those, but yes. As I said, it's speculative, but there's no reason to think that the borg technology was replicable, and various forward timelines don't have it.

They don't even have it aboard 29th century timeships. The Aeon pootles along at warp in Future's End.

Considering it opened up right next to Voyager, then bang, right next to Earth(though in the wrong year), I think whatever it has severely outclasses slipstream.

Spock's jellyfish ship in the reboot doesn't have it (even when getting to Hobus was a priority and it's said to be 'our fastest ship'!) sixteen years after Voyager's return.

Warp itself in the alternate universe is odd, it seems to only take moments, not hours, days, or months. Plus, Spock had 'little time', so he might not have been able to acquire any crystals. And young Spock was using it some time after it had arrived, so presumably the crystals had cracked or whatever they do that makes them unusable.

The renegade Q states that it will be another century (2472) before humans will reach the Delta Quadrant, apart from Voyager.

The guy was also sealed in a comet for centuries, and so he missed the effects that time travel, Q making the UFP meet the Borg, and his subsequent death prevents him from seeing Janeway bending time all willy nilly. Also, there were already humans in the Delta Quadrant, we saw them the season before, on the human colony in "The 37s", so for an omniscient being, he was wrong on that front.

[quote[It's not on the Defiant or mentioned in DS9's future episode (The Visitor) in the future.[/quote]

That one also didn't include a Dominion war. Does that mean that the Dominion never invaded the Alpha Quadrant in that timeline, and that Section 31's plan worked? We also didn't see much, if any, warp travel itself in the episode, as any transitions were covered by old Jake's narration.

What is it about Trek that makes people go 'reverse engineering will totally happen?' And usually only that the Federation will be the ones doing it. Regardless, every canonical future timeline features warp as the predominant method of propelling federation starships for centuries to come.

This is getting rediculous. We've been talking about this two-episode wonder for pages now. Demonstrate the adaptation of slipstream in the future, when we see various future episodes where it is not in evidence, using canon sources, or concede that either they chose not to for some reason (safety) or cannot (lacking parts) people.

Maybe its because one thing the Federation shows is that their technology is progressing, and they are inventing new technologies and faster ways of travel, as well as improvements in other areas. The Klingons focus solely on warfare, and their culture discourages scientific breakthroughs, the Romulans welcome new technologies, but their tech seems more focused on weaponry and stealth, as seen with their thalaron weapon and their trying out of new cloaks that nearly destroyed a warbird and the Enterprise-D. The Cardassians are essentially wiped out as a culture, but seemed to be a generation behind everyone else, at least militarily. The Ferengi buy weapons from everyone else, so that seems to be their main method of advancement.

Another thing all these cultures have in common is that they are rather monolithic, and so aren't as open to new ideas as the Federation, who welcomes new ideas and cultures at all times.

The Dominion and the Borg, however, could also keep apace, as both cultures seem to embrace the diversity and finding of new technologies.

[NecronLord]

If you're going to reject all those with 'maybe there was a slipstream drive behind the curtain' or 'maybe that nigh-omniscient being didn't know what he was talking about' then you're basically demanding I prove a negative.

I have shown positive evidence that warp drive is in use on the fastest ship fifteen years later. I've shown that there are severe problems with slipstream.

Can you show positive evidence of slipstream? Positive evidence that these problems can be solved?

No, therefore the only conclusion reasonably possible is that warp remains the premier FTL system of the Federation at least to the time of the Jellyfish and presumably beyond.

[Tribble]

They don't even have it aboard 29th century timeships. The Aeon pootles along at warp in Future's End.

Do they even need conventional propulsion in the 29th century? The Aeon was able to go from 29th Century to where Voyager was located in the DQ in the 24th Century. It was also able to transport Voyager from 20th Century Earth to the 24th Century DQ without problems. Janeway specifically asked if Braxton would just transport Voyager to the 24th Century AQ, and while he said he could he wouldn't due to the Temporal Prime Directive.

Also, the Aeon was basically a one-man shuttlecraft. We never really saw the capabilities of a full size starship like the USS Relativity, apart from its time abilities. The USS Relatively was able to transport people across multiple time periods and locations. If you're able to transport people to any place, any time, conventional travel becomes pretty moot.

Spock's jellyfish ship in the reboot doesn't have it (even when getting to Hobus was a priority!)

IIRC Spock's craft came from the year 2387, and "Endgame" occurred in 2378. No one is saying that the moment Voyager appears, the Feds have slipstream/transwarp drive. It could take years or even decades before they have the ability to design a ship, let alone build it.

Besides which, if you want to go by the continuity of those movies we get into issues like Khan having tech that was able to transport him from Earth to Qu'nos, and warp travel appearing to be much faster than what we see in the "regular" universe.

The renegade Q states that it will be another century (2472) before humans will reach the Delta Quadrant, apart from Voyager.

To be specific:

Q: "What have you done now, Q? Well now, isn't this just fine? Humans aren't supposed to be in this quadrant for another hundred years!"
Quinn: "I didn't bring them here. Nothing to do with me!"

This is another instance of "humans are doing things that the Q didn't expect". Remember that Q made a similar remark in "Q-Who" when he complained that the Federation was exploring and expanding faster then the Q were anticipating. Well, Voyager was there, so clearly he was wrong. An odd thing to say given that he's supposedly omnipotent.

It's not like that means much anyways. There was several times in the show where Voyager was "supposed" to have been destroyed, but that didn't stop them from changing the timeline did it? Voyager was also "supposed" to take longer to get back to the AQ, but that didn't stop Future Janeway from altering things so they got back in 7 years. After what appearing to destroy the Borg, no less. Imagine the changes to the timeline that caused. If they are able to alter time that radically, it's certainly possible that Voyager's return could change things and open up the DQ sooner than it "should" have.

It's not on the Defiant or mentioned in DS9's future episode (The Visitor) in the future.

Alternate timeline, plus Jake was trying to re-create the exact events which led to the accident, and having an entirely different type of propulsion system would make that rather difficult, wouldn't you think?

What is it about Trek that makes people go 'reverse engineering will totally happen?'

Because that happens quite a bit in Star Trek. Again, the Voyager crew was able to create a working Slipstream drive within days of encountering the "USS Dauntless" and without any evidence of exotic parts and materials being used. Why do you think Utopia Plantia would fail to do any better, especially after getting all of Voyager's research and prototypes? I'll admit the second Slipstream drive they built could pose a much bigger challenge, since it was exponentially faster and was explicitly stated to require exotic materials / tech.

And usually only that the Federation will be the ones doing it.

Never said that, though the Federation might have a head start with whatever tech Voyager brought back, since it was their ship afterall(surprise!)

Regardless, every canonical future timeline features warp as the predominant method of propelling federation starships for centuries to come.

Do we actually see how starships usually travel in future timelines? The only instance I can think of where we saw ships in action for any significant length of time was in ENT, where we saw the final battle against the Sphere builders in the 26th century. That doesn't actually help us though because like most Star Trek battles, the battle appeared to take place in normal space.

This is getting rediculous. Demonstrate the adapatation of slipstream in the future, when we see various future episodes where it is not in evidence, using canon sources, or concede people.

There is little evidence to suggest what forms of propulsion are being used, other than by the 29th Century Federation tech had reached the point where apparently a one man shuttle can form rifts to cross the galaxy and/or travel in time, and take other starships along with it. Also, by the 29th Century full-size starships like the USS Relativity could apparently send people across space / time to a point of their choosing. By the 31st Century it appeared as though time and space travel could be done with hand-held devices.

Just to nail the coffin lid shut on this thing.
The Federation's fastest ship went to warp, not slipstream.

If that's the Federation's fastest ship at time that's pretty damn sad seeing as it was outrun by a freighter. Does the dialog actually state that it was the fastest ship in Starfleet? Was its max warp ever stated on screen? My understanding was that it was the fastest ship the Vulcan Science Academy had at the time, and at least according to the movie's website and the novelization I recall it's max speed being warp 8. YMMV on whether or not you want to take the novelization or the movie website as canon, though that doesn't contradict anything we see on screen.

And again, in any event there was only 9 years between "Endgame" and when Spock's ship headed to Romulus. It's certainly possible that Starfleet hadn't been able to crack the Slipstream drive tech by that point in time, or the first vessels were only in the planning phase.

It would make sense for there to be some intermediate steps taken between the 24th-29th centuries, and using the Quantum slipstream may have been one of them. But according to you, nothing happened for 500 years, then the Feds were suddenly able to go from conventional warp travel to building starships that could cross the galaxy and/or time travel at will. Sure.

[NecronLord]

No, I'm not saying nothing happened. I'm saying demonstrate positive proof. You're basically saying it's going to happen, because you're influenced by computer games and novels. There's no evidence other than those that the problems can be solved in any timescale relevant to dealing with a mooted second Dominion invasion.

It's a two-episode wonder, nothing more than that, and not a key part of the continuity. We should confine ourselves to discussing such things.

As for the transwarp transporter, I always assumed that future-Spock had learned how to make it work from study of the Dominion ones, as the Dominion also had a multi-light-year teleporter.

[Tribble]

No, I'm not saying nothing happened. I'm saying demonstrate positive proof. You're basically saying it's going to happen, because you're influenced by computer games and novels. There's no evidence other than those that the problems can be solved in any timescale relevant to dealing with a mooted second Dominion invasion.

It's a two-episode wonder, nothing more than that.

Naturally it's no more possible to demonstrate positive proof than to demonstrate positive proof that Voyager actually made it back to Earth. As Chuck pointed out for all we know a comet struck Voyager and blew it up the moment the end-credits rolled, and "Admiral Janeway" could actually be a changeling in disguise. Everything after "EndGame" is pure speculation, since we don't get to see the day-to-day tech that the Federation has after that point.

I'm not saying it's going to happen within a relevant timescale (since we obviously really don't know anything past Voyager / Star Trek Nemesis), only that IMO it's likely that the Federation would make some headway with with Voyager's first Slipstream drive, which had fess issues to deal with than the second one. I could see Starfleet developing prototype ships within the next couple of decades, given what Voyager was able to accomplish on its own. Would that change the outcome of a full scale war with the Dominion? Probably not, though you never know when having a couple of ships which could out-strip your opponents would come in handy. If absolutely necessary they could even retrofit existing Intrepid class ships with the drive for emergency use, since we know that ship-class should be able to handle the slipstream for up to an hour.

As for the transwarp transporter, I always assumed that future-Spock had learned how to make it work from study of the Dominion ones, as the Dominion also had a multi-light-year teleporter.

It could be a combo of that and the Iconian gateway tech. Is it ever stated that only Spock knew, or was it common tech by then? We know that 23rd century tech was capable of utilizing the equation... once the Feds discovered it and deployed it on a mass scale they wouldn't really need that many starships anymore, would they? I suppose the transporter could still be blocked by shields though...

[NecronLord]

See, that's where we differ I think. I see Mirandas and Excelsiors still being relevant in DS9 and I imagine that the pace of progress isn't really as revolution every few minutes that seems to be the thing with a lot of fans. I don't imagine the Federation's fleet will be substantially more powerful (or the Dominion's for that matter) within fifty to a hundred years. There'll be some nice prototypes, yes, on both sides, but nothing game-changing.

Lots of people cling to one-shot things (or two shots in the case of Slipstream) like it's going to deliver the Federation galactic hegemon status within a measurable timeframe. That always seems daft to me.

[Tribble]

See, that's where we differ I think. I see Mirandas and Excelsiors still being relevant in DS9

I don't see why older ships would suddenly be irrelevant the moment Voyager returned. Even assuming the Feds could build a working prototype within a decade, it's not like they would have fleets of them immediately available. IMO it's far more likely that you'd see a gradual phase-out, and even then older ships would still play an important role in situations where speed isn't essential, such as planetary defence. Just because they could build a significantly faster starship doesn't mean the Feds have to replace all their existing ships at once. Nor does it mean they have to make all of their ships with the new engines. We still make plenty of sub-sonic aircraft even though super-sonic aircraft have been around for quite awhile.

I imagine that the pace of progress isn't really as revolution every few minutes that seems to be the thing with a lot of fans.

IMO it's not really that much of a revolution. The Feds had been doing research on trans-warp like tech for more than a hundred years, judging from the trans-warp project in ST3. It seems like the Feds theoretical knowledge of trans-warp technologies exceeded their practical capabilities. They knew exactly how trans-warp worked, they simply weren't quite good enough to build their own practical design. Much like our problems with fusion reactors today, come to think of it. Voyager would have just sped the process up by giving them some practical hands-on data, as well as their existing proto-types.

I don't imagine the Federation's fleet will be substantially more powerful (or the Dominion's for that matter) within fifty to a hundred years.

What do you mean by more powerful? If you mean the power of individual ships, I don't see why they wouldn't become significantly more powerful: A 100 years is the difference between the original Enterprize and the E-E, and there's no contest over which one would win in a fight. The Feds were able to develop quite a bit of new tech once they got the kick to their ass in "Q-Who" - within a few years of that event they had things like quantum torpedoes, adaptive shields / phasers, ablative hull armour etc. And no doubt they got a boost from all the crap Voyager brought over, particularly with the batmobile armour and transphasic torpedoes.

Or do you mean the Feds fleet power in comparison to various other AQ powers? If that's the case, I agree with you that the relative balance of power wouldn't change much, as everybody was more or less even in the tech arms race. Any advantage the Feds may have gained from Voyager could have just as easily be matched in discoveries by the other powers.

There'll be some nice prototypes, yes, on both sides, but nothing game-changing

IMO they could be well past the prototype stage, but I highly doubt the entire fleet would be composed of them. There would likely be a mixture of types and while the ratio of slipstream ships would gradually increase over time I don't think you'd see the complete replacement of regular warp drive.

Lots of people cling to one-shot things (or two shots in the case of Slipstream) like it's going to deliver the Federation galactic hegemon status within a measurable timeframe. That always seems daft to me.

Never said that, and I also think the idea is silly. I don't think the other powers would be far behind, especially if/when they discover the Feds have a working model. Even if they were significantly behind and unable to catch-up for awhile despite research/espionage etc, I doubt the Feds would be able to crank out enough of those ships to make a decisive impact in an all-out war. Matter of fact, it might be in the Feds best interests to simply collaborate with the other powers and share their knowledge with at least the Romulans and Klingons; it might make the development go along more quickly, and it would likely reduce tensions as other powers won't feel overly threatened by the Feds tech edge.

My point is that IMO the Feds are in a positon to make the "slower" slipstream drive practical within a decade or two, but that's a far cry from replacing every ship in the fleet (which they wouldn't want to do in any event for the reasons I stated earlier).