the Pegasus challenge

Moonshadow · Post by **Moonshadow** » 2003-01-24 03:40am

ok heres an idea. Think of a way to free the USS Pegasus from the asteroid its stuck in. You can us any method as long as the Pegasus survives intact. You might want to find a copy of "The Pegasus" to get an idea of what kind of problems you are dealing with. good luck.

Moonshadow · Post by **Moonshadow** » 2003-01-24 03:02pm

"tumbleweeds roll by"

Ok then i geuss this means everyone is um... busy thinking up ideas for their answers right? Hello? Anyone? ........Damn

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-01-24 05:14pm

Why would you want to free the Pegasus? It's like what, a Constellation class?

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2003-01-24 05:19pm

You want to free it to take phasecloak thingy I guess.

If you can use any means then I would go into the inside of the asteroid and activate phasecloak and use that to escape.

If you can't do that, then I'd blast the asteroid apart with a huge amount of missiles or something like that.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-01-24 05:28pm

But they already took the phasecloak out of the ship.

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2003-01-24 05:37pm

I assumed that it was still there since that would be the most likely reason to want to retrieve the ship.

If there is no phasecloak, then I would have them bombard the asteroid with missiles to separate the ship and the chunk of rock it's embedded in from the main part of the asteroid. Cut off the rock still stuck to the ship with laser cutters. Anything else with hand tools

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-01-24 07:30pm

Missiles in trek? Only the Delta Flyer had those, lol. Hell, I would just use the phasecloak (what the Rommies don't know won't hurt em), reenter the asteroid, decloak, beam over a team to destroy the computer systems of the ship and crap, then just leave after retreiving the team.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-24 09:08pm

Aya wrote:Missiles in trek? Only the Delta Flyer had those, lol. Hell, I would just use the phasecloak (what the Rommies don't know won't hurt em), reenter the asteroid, decloak, beam over a team to destroy the computer systems of the ship and crap, then just leave after retreiving the team.

All Trek "torpedoes" are guided missiles, though there guidance systems leave much to be desired.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2003-01-24 11:11pm

I would simply carve it out with phasers. It should be possible to do that without causing the ever dangerous zero-gee cave-in

Moonshadow · Post by **Moonshadow** » 2003-01-25 01:52am

well i geuss the reason is to recover it because it would be a great challenge to do so. And its an Oberth Class not a Constellation Class. However it wasn't just your run of the mill Oberth because it was the testbed for other experimental technology( aside from the phasecloak) like weapons and shields. I bet it could take on quite a few normal Oberths in a fight. Who knows what other high tech goodies it has on it.( though they might be obsolete but still)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-25 01:55am

You can't recover it; the portion of the ship that is embedded in rock is lost. Its structure has been mixed with the rock at the molecular level, so it's pretty much gone. You could recover, at most, half of a ship. Might as well just drop a seismic charge in there, blow the asteroid apart, and then send in a salvage team to look for useful bits.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-25 02:04am

Given the nature of Federation construction, the outer hulls appear to be the main strength of the design; I doubt the thing could be gotten back to a major base for repairs. Stripping the hulk for parts and hauling for any of the more valuable structural materials is probably the best option.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-25 02:15am

Whoops, I shouldn't have mentioned seismic charges as a quickie way of getting the ship out, since we're talking about pure ST. Sorry; bad habit.

I'd say that they should send in shuttles carrying salvage teams to look for all the useful bits, and then destroy the hulk as any competent military would do. In the original episode, they left the Pegasus, still partly intact and even partly functional, inside the asteroid for the Romulans to take apart at their leisure. They didn't blow it up, they didn't leave a bomb on it ... unbelievable.

And yes, I know about how Data thought there were dangerous gravitational and magnetic field fluctuations; all I can say is that he's an idiot. We know what kind of gravitational and magnetic field strength we're going to get in a 5km wide asteroid, and they're nothing to get excited about. The fact that Data thought otherwise does not make him correct; it makes him stupid. Send in the damned shuttles.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-25 02:20am

Send in the Photon torpedoes if all else really does fail. They should know exactly where to hit the ship to blow its computers and to set off the fuel supply.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2003-01-25 12:20pm

Darth Wong wrote:

And yes, I know about how Data thought there were dangerous gravitational and magnetic field fluctuations; all I can say is that he's an idiot. We know what kind of gravitational and magnetic field strength we're going to get in a 5km wide asteroid, and they're nothing to get excited about. The fact that Data thought otherwise does not make him correct; it makes him stupid. Send in the damned shuttles.

This is probably going to sound stupid/wishful thinking etc, but I recently thought up a theory on Data's really, really dumb analysis of the asteroid:

Data simply lied. He wanted to see what was in there, so once he knew they weren't going to blow it up, he told them they couldn't take a shuttle, and that they couldn't survive if the cavern collapsed during phaser drilling. I don't know, it made sense then, and we know he can lie (The Most Toys-he was firing the disrupter when beamed up, but when asked about it he denied it). The rest of the crew would never suspect because he supposedly infailiable, and they are dumb. (shrugs)

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-25 06:02pm

The Silence and I wrote:Darth Wong wrote:
And yes, I know about how Data thought there were dangerous gravitational and magnetic field fluctuations; all I can say is that he's an idiot. We know what kind of gravitational and magnetic field strength we're going to get in a 5km wide asteroid, and they're nothing to get excited about. The fact that Data thought otherwise does not make him correct; it makes him stupid. Send in the damned shuttles.
This is probably going to sound stupid/wishful thinking etc, but I recently thought up a theory on Data's really, really dumb analysis of the asteroid:

Data simply lied. He wanted to see what was in there, so once he knew they weren't going to blow it up, he told them they couldn't take a shuttle, and that they couldn't survive if the cavern collapsed during phaser drilling. I don't know, it made sense then, and we know he can lie (The Most Toys-he was firing the disrupter when beamed up, but when asked about it he denied it). The rest of the crew would never suspect because he supposedly infailiable, and they are dumb. (shrugs)

Quite simply, it is absurd to assume that Data is incorrect. We have this asteroid and Data flat out states that sending a shuttle in will be dangerous. He has no reason to lie and I am going to believe data more then your claims about his being an idiot. What this means is the asteroid itself has something screwy going on.

As to The Most Toys. Data did not lie. They beamed data up a faction of a second after he fired the weapon. The weapon was disarmed in transport, then Riker asked Data if there was a malfunction as to the sidearm having an energy discharge. Data said there was no discharge. He admited to having fired the weapon.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-25 07:05pm

Alyeska wrote:Quite simply, it is absurd to assume that Data is incorrect. We have this asteroid and Data flat out states that sending a shuttle in will be dangerous. He has no reason to lie and I am going to believe data more then your claims about his being an idiot. What this means is the asteroid itself has something screwy going on.

How is it absurd? That asteroid is obviously made of ordinary rock, and even if we assume it's generously laced with heavy metals, it's not going to have anywhere near the gravitational field that a moon or planet would have. As for the magnetic fields, we know how those work too, and unless there is molten metal churning around the inside of that asteroid, they should be insignificant (and frankly, even if there is molten metal churning around in there, it will still be extremely weak).

In short, we have no observation of these grav/mag fields. We have numerous scientific reasons to believe that these grav/mag fields are inconsequential. We have no observed deformation of the Pegasus frame even though it's been sitting in the rock with its systems powered down and SIF turned off for many years. We have the appearance of the asteroid. We have known electromagnetic interference in that region of space, which was screwing up their sensors and which can potentially almost blind them. We have heavy ionizing radiation that they inundated the asteroid with in order to further confuse sensors, completely blinding Romulan sensors to the presence of the Pegasus (note: Data uses readings from these same screwed-up sensors at face-value to come to his conclusions).

And against all of that, what do you have? The assumption that Data could not possibly be incompetent.

Sorry, but that's no contest. It's not Data's word against mine; it's Data's word against science, logic, and observation.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-25 07:08pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Quite simply, it is absurd to assume that Data is incorrect. We have this asteroid and Data flat out states that sending a shuttle in will be dangerous. He has no reason to lie and I am going to believe data more then your claims about his being an idiot. What this means is the asteroid itself has something screwy going on.
How is it absurd? That asteroid is obviously made of ordinary rock, and even if we assume it's generously laced with heavy metals, it's not going to have anywhere near the gravitational field that a moon or planet would have. As for the magnetic fields, we know how those work too, and unless there is molten metal churning around the inside of that asteroid, they should be insignificant.

In short, we have no observation of these grav/mag fields. We have numerous scientific reasons to believe that these grav/mag fields are inconsequential. We have no observed deformation of the Pegasus frame even though it's been sitting in the rock with its systems powered down and SIF turned off for many years. We have the appearance of the asteroid. We have known electromagnetic interference in that region of space, which was screwing up their sensors and which can potentially almost blind them. We have heavy ionizing radiation that they inundated the asteroid with in order to further confuse sensors (completely blinding Romulan sensors to the presence of the Pegasus (note: Data uses readings from these same screwed-up sensors at face-value to come to his conclusions).

And against all of that, what do you have? The assumption that Data could not possibly be incompetent.

Sorry, but that's no contest. It's not Data's word against mine; it's Data's word against science, logic, and observation.

And how do you know its made of ordinary rock? We know the following about the asteroid. It had enough gravity flucations that shuttles weren't going to be risked. We know that the Romulans were able to collapse the entrance, and that requires gravity. We know that the Enterprise was unwilling to blast its way out because they feared collapse, which comes from gravity. A 5km asteroid doesn't have enough gravity like that if its made of ordinary materials. We know that it can't be made of ordinary materials because of the last two examples. From the first example we know something VERY screwy is going on because not only does it have significant gravity, it flucuates. You are assuming its a perfectly normal asteroid then using that t invalidate the examples. I have just shown how the examples clearly show this is not an ordinary asteroid and there are a lot of unknowns in the situation.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-25 07:30pm

Alyeska wrote:And how do you know its made of ordinary rock?

I can see, and I know enough about gravity to know it's bullshit.

We know the following about the asteroid. It had enough gravity flucations that shuttles weren't going to be risked.

Circular logic. Assuming Data is correct as a premise.

We know that the Romulans were able to collapse the entrance, and that requires gravity.

A 5 km asteroid actually will have gravity, albeit weak gravity. However, it will not have gravitational "fluctuations" no matter how dense it is; this is a clear sign of their sensors being fouled by the interference and Data being too incompetent to figure it out.

We know that the Enterprise was unwilling to blast its way out because they feared collapse, which comes from gravity.

Because they're stupid. The asteroid did not even have enough gravity to collapse itself into a spherical shape or close the gaping chasm. Have you no concept at all of how gravity or mechanical deformation works?

A 5km asteroid doesn't have enough gravity like that if its made of ordinary materials.

Circular logic. Assuming Data is correct as a premise.

We know that it can't be made of ordinary materials because of the last two examples.

Circular logic. Assuming Data is correct as a premise.

From the first example we know something VERY screwy is going on because not only does it have significant gravity, it flucuates.

Circular logic. Assuming Data is correct as a premise.

You are assuming its a perfectly normal asteroid then using that t invalidate the examples. I have just shown how the examples clearly show this is not an ordinary asteroid and there are a lot of unknowns in the situation.

No, you have repeatedly tried to prove Data is correct by ASSUMING he's correct and then basically saying "since <insert one of Data's claims here>, we know that <insert same claim here> must be true".

CIRCULAR LOGIC.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-25 07:33pm

My logic is not circular. I am asserting that the dialogue is correct. You haven't actually proven Data wrong. You claim the asteroid is a normal one, but all evidence from the episodes proves otherwise.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2003-01-25 07:37pm

Aleska wrote:

As to The Most Toys. Data did not lie. They beamed data up a faction of a second after he fired the weapon. The weapon was disarmed in transport, then Riker asked Data if there was a malfunction as to the sidearm having an energy discharge. Data said there was no discharge. He admited to having fired the weapon.

Whoops! My bad on The Most Toys. Its been a while, I guess

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-25 07:48pm

Alyeska wrote:My logic is not circular. I am asserting that the dialogue is correct.

By assuming that it is correct in order to prove itself.

You haven't actually proven Data wrong.

I have shown that it is SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE! And don't give me some bullshit about suspending disbelief in this case; this is a natural phenomenon, not a sci-fi technological device.

You claim the asteroid is a normal one, but all evidence from the episodes proves otherwise.

Wrong. You are treating Data's dialogue as "evidence" when Data's dialogue is precisely the issue under discussion. This is no different than a fundie treating Biblical claims of inerrancy as evidence in a debate over Biblical inerrancy.

CIRCULAR LOGIC.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-25 07:52pm

Alyeska, I have already provided an explanation for the episode which does NOT violate the laws of physics: Data's sensors were fouled by the interference in the system.

You have completely ignored this point in favour of your assumption that Data and the sensor system are both infallible. Frankly, I cannot imagine how this actually makes sense in your mind.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-25 07:54pm

Darth Wong wrote:I have shown that it is SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE! And don't give me some bullshit about suspending disbelief in this case; this is a natural phenomenon, not a sci-fi technological device.

We also have seen cracks in the event horrizon of a black hole. We have seen impossible things happen in Star Trek. We have the observed information. You are throwing away all the onscreen evidence because what they are doing shouldn't be possible. Doesn't work that way and you know it. Some way or another this asteroid exists and we have to accept that. If you don't then all your doing is arbitrarily accepting parts of Star Trek, and thats not proper debate.

Wrong. You are treating Data's dialogue as "evidence" when Data's dialogue is precisely the issue under discussion. This is no different than a fundie treating Biblical claims of inerrancy as evidence in a debate over Biblical inerrancy.

We have no reason to think Data is incorrect. No mater how unlikely this situation is, we know it exists and we have to face that fact.

CIRCULAR LOGIC.

No. Normal logic. It was stated onscreen and further supported twice in the episode. It might not make sense, but its the situation at hand.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-25 07:57pm

Darth Wong wrote:Alyeska, I have already provided an explanation for the episode which does NOT violate the laws of physics: Data's sensors were fouled by the interference in the system.

You have completely ignored this point in favour of your assumption that Data and the sensor system are both infallible. Frankly, I cannot imagine how this actually makes sense in your mind.

I have chosen to accept the information given because we have no indication of it being incorrect. Infact Data's information is supported by the fact that the Romulan ship was able to collapse the entrance and seal the Enterprise in. That could not be done with a standard 5km asteroid. The evidence indicates time and time again that Data was correct.