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First of all, I'm not going into this with the intent of trivializing any real world peoples which have been the victims of Racism, Colonialism, Systematic Oppression and so forth. This is about fictional characters in a fictional world in which real world monsters are used as a meter stick.

I am aware of the real life parallels that are invoked in the regards to the Cardassians and the Bajorans, most specifically the analog of Jews and Nazis. However from what I can gather they fail to live up to the severity that these analogs.

First and foremost is the Holocaust analog. This does not fit because the Holocaust was a plan which had systematic eradication as an end goal. Every single last Jew: man, woman, child, elder and infant was seen by the Nazis as an irredeemable dyed in the wool enemy of the Ayran Race and needed to die. They were either to be killed or exploited until they could not work and then killed and they were rather successful doing this. The Polish Jewish population went from 3 million to 200,000. The main thrust of the Holocaust happened between 1942 and 1944 when the Death Camps were in full swing. In contrast Cardassia's occupation of Bajor lasted about 50 Years and there was still a decent sized Bajoran population on Bajor itself.

Of course, there is a wide spectrum between a decent state of affairs and being the targets of an extermination campaign. As such we could consider the Death Tole of the Bajoran population. This is listed as 15 Million. Spread out over 50 years, this adds up to 300,000 people. Now that is a lot of people dead, make no mistake, but one must consider other factors. Bajor is listed as having a population of 3.8 Billion. Given that the Bajoran civilization is supposed to be tens of thousands of years old, we can assume that this is fairly stable. This means that every year you had a one in 12,666.6666667 chance of dying from the Cardassian Occupation on Bajor. In contrast every year you have a 681.25 change of dying from smoking in the United States.

Compare this to the Nazis during the Great Patriotic War which killed 27 Million Soviets in WWII, among them about 20 million civilians killed by the nazis through direct military action, executions, killing factories, starvation, zero concern for collateral damage and similar between 1941-45 (this includes Soviet Jews) which had a population of 188 million pre war. Or the Japanese who did not have mass-eradication like the Holocaust or Generalplan Ost on their mind but killed 15-20 million people in China between 1937-45 which had a population about 500,000,000.

I'm sure being beaten by an Obsidian Order agent in a locked room was horrible as was working in the mining complexes described in Duet. But as it stands Cardassian Occupation seems like the nicer variety of 19th colonialism.

Zor

Is it as bad as the Holocaust? No, unless you just count death toll without accounting for the percentage of the population killed or the amount of time over which it occurred.

But as you said, there's a giant gap between "as bad as the Holocaust" and "not horrible".

The Holocaust analogy comes closer at the end of the occupation, where the Cardassians want to kill large amounts of the Bajoran civilian population in retaliation for them having to abandon Bajor. As it turned out, Gul Dukat thought that was too extreme, so they just poisoned the land instead.

So at the start, it was shit, but not necessarily Holocaust level of horribleness, but the end it was starting to get there given the Cardassians poisoned the land. I suspect without UFP aid, the Bajorans may have had a total economic collapse after the Cardassians instituted their poisoning the wells tactic.

Well, extermination of the Bajoran population wasn't a goal, just a bit of a side effect if it continued on forever. Remember, they stripmined the planet, raided temples and cities of cultural artifacts, destroyed entire ecosystems and made huge swaths of land unusable. Think more of Red China's destruction of Tibet, with them being punished for being independent.

Don't forget that the Cardassians used labour camps and enslaved Bajorans for this purpose.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: ↑2019-05-09 11:04am Don't forget that the Cardassians used labour camps and enslaved Bajorans for this purpose.

Ya, I got the impression that the only reason the Bajorans weren’t wiped out was because the Cardassians wanted to use them as slaves. Killing them all would have been a waste of resources.

Considering Dukat's statement that colonization of the planet was Cardassia's goal, it seems that wiping out the native population would have been the first thing you should do.

That way, they're not getting in the way of your efforts. Wipe them out, then send in automated labor with minimal oversight.

That doesn't sound much like colonization though

Batman wrote: ↑2019-05-11 07:33pm That doesn't sound much like colonization though

Why not? Colonization is to process of moving your lifeform/lifeforms to a completely new habitat.

In the case of a planet, with sentient locals that would object, removing them would be the logical first step.
Most places colonized in North America, driving out the natives was a priority.
On a planetary scale, extermination/genocide is the most effective option.

Disgusting, brutal, but true.

The Cardassians were more interested in the resources, so keeping the Bajorans alive to mine and farm and husband animals makes sense. They just went out of their way to crush Bajoran culture and turn them into a race of helots, and later Dukat remarks that his reputation with the Central Command declined after the withdrawal because he didn't kill every last Bajoran he could.

And a lot of the Holocaust comparisons come from the episode "Duet" and the descriptions of Gallitep and how its commandant was said to have behaved. The implication that it was a concentration camp, and that its leader ordered the slaughtering of the prisoners should withdrawal happen, has some pretty nasty implications. Although apparently the Bajoran resistance was actually able to liberate the camp. Presumably used Trektech to stop Cardassian transporters from being employed or something.

Solauren wrote: ↑2019-05-11 07:50pm

Batman wrote: ↑2019-05-11 07:33pm That doesn't sound much like colonization though

Why not? Colonization is to process of moving your lifeform/lifeforms to a completely new habitat.
In the case of a planet, with sentient locals that would object, removing them would be the logical first step.
Most places colonized in North America, driving out the natives was a priority.
On a planetary scale, extermination/genocide is the most effective option.
Disgusting, brutal, but true.

Oh I absolutely agree.

then send in automated labor with minimal oversight

sounds a lot more like strip mining than actual colonization though

Batman wrote: ↑2019-05-11 08:43pm

Solauren wrote: then send in automated labor with minimal oversight

sounds a lot more like strip mining than actual colonization though

At the level of technology shown on DS9 by the Cardassians, they should be able to do things like robotic automated farms, demolitions equipment, and building construction.

Hell, modern Earth has what you could call 'ancestors' of that type of equipment. You just need to figure out how to make them 'wireless'/remote control.

i.e "Okay, this entire valley is farm land. All the farmers are dead. Beam up their equipment for recycling, and beam down our robotic farming vehicles"
i.e "This location is perfect for a city, but it's architecture is bajorian. Send in robotic construction machinery to tear it down, then to build new buildings."

You know, for a guy that's supposed to be Batman, you're showing a lack of imagination (and understanding)

Solauren wrote: ↑2019-05-12 11:34am

Batman wrote: ↑2019-05-11 08:43pm

Solauren wrote: then send in automated labor with minimal oversight

sounds a lot more like strip mining than actual colonization though

At the level of technology shown on DS9 by the Cardassians, they should be able to do things like robotic automated farms, demolitions equipment, and building construction.

Hell, modern Earth has what you could call 'ancestors' of that type of equipment. You just need to figure out how to make them 'wireless'/remote control.

i.e "Okay, this entire valley is farm land. All the farmers are dead. Beam up their equipment for recycling, and beam down our robotic farming vehicles"
i.e "This location is perfect for a city, but it's architecture is bajorian. Send in robotic construction machinery to tear it down, then to build new buildings."

You know, for a guy that's supposed to be Batman, you're showing a lack of imagination (and understanding)

You still need Bajoran women to be 'comfort women', so you need some of them alive. Also, the whole point of the Cardassians is that they suck at implementing their technology towards anything that isn't war. You know, like how a lot of totalitarian regimes do with their resources to keep the regime going.

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-05-12 11:54am You still need Bajoran women to be 'comfort women', so you need some of them alive. Also, the whole point of the Cardassians is that they suck at implementing their technology towards anything that isn't war. You know, like how a lot of totalitarian regimes do with their resources to keep the regime going.

Actually, I believe part of the reason for the 'comfort women' was it was considered dangerous to bring families to Bajor.
Kill all the Bajorians, it's now safe to bring families.

Comfort Women is just an asshole power play, and with automated labor, not needed.

And I never caught that 'the whole point of the Cardassians'. With their introduction, I got the impression they were 'late comers' to the galactic scence, compared to the UFP + it's contemparies, and were fighting for a place. As a result of that late-coming, they were behind in tech by a few decades (more advanced then TOS/Movie Era, but less advanced then TNG).

That's not 'suck at implementing', that's 'behind the times'. BIG difference.

Perhaps the less automated nature of the occupation also serves as a labour sink for Cardassia's junta, while simultaneously giving a crisis which said junta can use to suppress dissent.

"Join up now, slaughter Vedeks for the glory of Caddassia! Also, if you don't agree shut up because we're at waaar!"

I like that idea.

Combine it with it being a perfectly legitimate reason to have a major space installation and military force near the Federation border....

It makes the occupation of Bajor look more of an excuse then it does an actual colonization attempt.

This isn't canon, but in the DS9 novel Fearful Symmetry, Illiana Ghemor brings this up with one of her colleagues in the Obsidian Order, in that Bajorans don't want them there, it's not cost effective to really be there due to the Bajoran Resistance, and public opinion(such as it is) is wavering on being there. (There's a whole Iraq invasion parallel going on there), and she asks why they're there.

The response is akin to, "Because leadership took us there, and we can't have them be embarrassed by admitting defeat and leaving."

Solauren wrote: ↑2019-05-12 09:15pm I like that idea.

Combine it with it being a perfectly legitimate reason to have a major space installation and military force near the Federation border....

It makes the occupation of Bajor look more of an excuse then it does an actual colonization attempt.

It might have been a combination of several things, a legimate colonization attempt that also served as an excuse to have military assets near the federation border.

I also suspect that Cardassians might been trying to make bajorans a slave class to be used in dangerous things or as cannon fodder in wars, like the remans for the romulans or those 2 races whose names I can't remember at the moment the Son'a used.

Also we must remember just because in theory Cardassian Union had tech level to do something it doesn't mean they had it in practice, for cardassians it seems if it isn't used for the military it's irrelevant when it comes to tech, so they might not actually have automated farming tech. Not because it was too advanced for them bur rather because the priorities of the Cardassian Union goverment are piss poor.