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Elheru Aran wrote:

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:Just got back from it. Enjoyed it greatly. The visuals of the Star Base were amazing. And it felt like it was really trying to be star Trek. With Pegg writing I guess it's no surprise there seemed to be more Scotty moments but it felt likely everyone really got at least a couple of moments in the spotlight. I think least used was Chekov which they probably regret now.

The dual dedications at the end made me sad.

Eta: How fast was the Franklin was supposed to go? I swear Scotty said it was the first to get past Warp 4. But that would make it slower than the NX Class it was later than being a post xindi/romulan war ship. Unless the re calibrated the warp scale or something.

Starfleet ships have long service lives. She may have been retrofitted with a Warp 5 engine, or she may have just been kept in service because Warp 4 was perfectly adequate for less long-haul work than Enterprises mission profile.

Or Kelvinverse NX-01 was slower. There's any number of ways to rationalize it, mostly because we aren't 100% sure how much carries over between old Trek and new Trek.

Transporter tech seems more primitive as well. Franklin's transporters were explicitly cargo only until Scotty got to them. It's always annoyed me that people take pre-Kelvin stuff to be prime canon. It's a reboot I tend to think it's all new and ENT is at very best on 'broad strokes' canon to NuTrek films.

MACOs were a thing and the xindi war, and phase canon and spatial torpedeos. But the specifics probably not. It makes sense if we go with Prime-TOS idea of the romulan war being fought with very primitive ships.

Crazedwraith wrote:

Elheru Aran wrote:

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Starfleet ships have long service lives. She may have been retrofitted with a Warp 5 engine, or she may have just been kept in service because Warp 4 was perfectly adequate for less long-haul work than Enterprises mission profile.

Or Kelvinverse NX-01 was slower. There's any number of ways to rationalize it, mostly because we aren't 100% sure how much carries over between old Trek and new Trek.

Transporter tech seems more primitive as well. Franklin's transporters were explicitly cargo only until Scotty got to them. It's always annoyed me that people take pre-Kelvin stuff to be prime canon. It's a reboot I tend to think it's all new and ENT is at very best on 'broad strokes' canon to NuTrek films.

MACOs were a thing and the xindi war, and phase canon and spatial torpedeos. But the specifics probably not. It makes sense if we go with Prime-TOS idea of the romulan war being fought with very primitive ships.

Yeah, we're going to have to resign ourselves to the fact that the JJverse is going to take a very fast and loose approach to incorporating elements from old-Trek in their new timeline. Some are in there better than others, but so far the Kelvinverse has been almost a ground-up rewrite of TOS' history, and that includes pre-TOS material now apparently.

EDIT: Hell, the design of the Kelvin itself lends credence to that notion-- as far as I know, there are no single nacelle starships in Trek canon other than some weird background props of ship wreckage in Wolf 359 that the production cobbled together from bits. It suggests that their use of warp drive may have developed slightly differently than it did in prime canon-- Kelvinverse NX-01 could have had only one nacelle, or perhaps three, or four, or five... we don't know.

I consider the Kelvin a zero nacelle design. Both the top and bottom cylinders looked like engineering hulls to me. The top had the shuttlebay and both had nav deflector-ish looking features front (hell the bottom one had them at both ends). Neither looked very much like a Warp nacelle.

Elheru Aran wrote:

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:Just got back from it. Enjoyed it greatly. The visuals of the Star Base were amazing. And it felt like it was really trying to be star Trek. With Pegg writing I guess it's no surprise there seemed to be more Scotty moments but it felt likely everyone really got at least a couple of moments in the spotlight. I think least used was Chekov which they probably regret now.

The dual dedications at the end made me sad.

Eta: How fast was the Franklin was supposed to go? I swear Scotty said it was the first to get past Warp 4. But that would make it slower than the NX Class it was later than being a post xindi/romulan war ship. Unless the re calibrated the warp scale or something.

Starfleet ships have long service lives. She may have been retrofitted with a Warp 5 engine, or she may have just been kept in service because Warp 4 was perfectly adequate for less long-haul work than Enterprises mission profile.

Or Kelvinverse NX-01 was slower. There's any number of ways to rationalize it, mostly because we aren't 100% sure how much carries over between old Trek and new Trek.

It is not 100% confidence, but I am generally willing to say that a good chunk is carrying over from Enterprise, because the shift in timeline happened after Enterprise. Keep in mind that people were really nervous about using transporters for people even in Enterprise, so they may not have caught on culturally for a while and may not have made it into an overhaul.

Elheru Aran wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:

Elheru Aran wrote:
Or Kelvinverse NX-01 was slower. There's any number of ways to rationalize it, mostly because we aren't 100% sure how much carries over between old Trek and new Trek.

Transporter tech seems more primitive as well. Franklin's transporters were explicitly cargo only until Scotty got to them. It's always annoyed me that people take pre-Kelvin stuff to be prime canon. It's a reboot I tend to think it's all new and ENT is at very best on 'broad strokes' canon to NuTrek films.

MACOs were a thing and the xindi war, and phase canon and spatial torpedeos. But the specifics probably not. It makes sense if we go with Prime-TOS idea of the romulan war being fought with very primitive ships.

Yeah, we're going to have to resign ourselves to the fact that the JJverse is going to take a very fast and loose approach to incorporating elements from old-Trek in their new timeline. Some are in there better than others, but so far the Kelvinverse has been almost a ground-up rewrite of TOS' history, and that includes pre-TOS material now apparently.

EDIT: Hell, the design of the Kelvin itself lends credence to that notion-- as far as I know, there are no single nacelle starships in Trek canon other than some weird background props of ship wreckage in Wolf 359 that the production cobbled together from bits. It suggests that their use of warp drive may have developed slightly differently than it did in prime canon-- Kelvinverse NX-01 could have had only one nacelle, or perhaps three, or four, or five... we don't know.

Keep in mind that in the original series Kirk and Co travelled backwards in time on several occasions, which could have had long term ramifications on the time line. With the time line changing, it's possible depending on the rules time travel in Trek, that these events never happened thus meaning that although the point of diversion was in 2233 earlier events could still have been changed.

As an example in this timeline the events of Tomorrow is Yesterday would never have happened. The Enterprise wouldn't have been detected in the skies above america in 1969. For all we know this chain of events could have done something like alter WWIII (by having the American's be slightly less paranoid for example). This would then explain how things like London has most of it's modern day architecture intact and may have met the Vulcan's on a better footing, giving us better ships and technology in the Nu Verse.

Yeah there's a lot of maybes and perhaps in this theory but it works in my head.

I just saw it today and I liked it. I'm glad that they avoided many of the clichéd pitfalls- at one point I was sure there was going to be a Designated Girl Fight between the Action Girl and her opposite number. I was also expecting her Universal Translator to break at the worst possible moment- needless to say, neither of those things panned out

I wouldn't have blamed Kirk if he'd shot her right then and there when they were on the planet's surface.

I have to say I liked all the links they made to Enterprise, from the mention of the Xindi, to the MACOs, to the Akiraprise lookalike (which was an infinitely better choice than a Daedalus or something). Maybe because I can imagine all the Ent-bashers going into heart failure with each mention!

That there was a new more advanced ship in the works- was that why the Enterprise getting literally torn to pieces not such a big deal to me? I mean the nacelles got ripped off, the ship was stabbed to the point there wasn't an intact square meter left and the saucer section got torn from the engineering hull! And all of this happening in the first half hour of the film?

I can't help but feel that if it was the USS Vengeance there instead it would have at least been able to put up a better fight- that said, you knew it had to be a pretty important McGuffin if the bad guy happily kicked the crap out of the Enterprise just to get hold of it.

I too wish the new Ent-A wasn't just a carbon-copy of the original, despite being described as more advanced. That's one thing from the films I wish they didn't rehash. I was hoping for a good counterpart to the Vengeance- maybe a similar overall shape but sleeker and less blocky, a more solid saucer snd a lighter, shinier paintjob.

I just get the feeling that the new ship would be just as outclassed as the old if they were to face the same opponents again. It would help if the Ent-A was an actual new design, or just the Kelvinverse's version of a refitted Connie

It would come as no surprise if they altered the warp scale, Trek has definitely used several in its various iterations.

While it was revealed that the saucer section was extremely tough, it should be noted that it couldn't actually be salvaged (both in Generations and here). It seemed that the manoeuvring thrusters must have been linked in series or something because when Kirk fired his weapon it didn't just trigger one it triggered all of them.

It's funny, the Big Bad makes a huge deal about counting on Kirk coming to rescue his crew so that he can get the McGuffin from him... only it turns out to be the backwards-facehugger woman who was concealing it in her head- hard cheese that she would be its first victim. Did anyone else notice the apparent Wraith parallels with the whole "drain life through the palms" thing?

GHETTO EDIT: Something else that occurred to me in the "military in all but name", the Klingons of all people get in on the act too by referring to their fleet as the "Klingon Defence Force". Which is pretty weird given they're the most warlike race of all...

Well, North Korea calls itself the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Governments bullshit all the time.

GHETTO EDIT: Something else that occurred to me in the "military in all but name", the Klingons of all people get in on the act too by referring to their fleet as the "Klingon Defence Force". Which is pretty weird given they're the most warlike race of all...

The millitery thing reminds me of chucks reviuw of the TNG episode peak performance wich he talks about that subject and I tend to agree with on that point.
http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/t147.php
Though I suppose Picard only explorers wile Scotty meant by name only.

Did anyone else notice the apparent Wraith parallels with the whole "drain life through the palms" thing?

Ya I was totally thinking the same thing.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:GHETTO EDIT: Something else that occurred to me in the "military in all but name", the Klingons of all people get in on the act too by referring to their fleet as the "Klingon Defence Force". Which is pretty weird given they're the most warlike race of all...

Mistranslation? After all, the best defense is a good offense...

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:GHETTO EDIT: Something else that occurred to me in the "military in all but name", the Klingons of all people get in on the act too by referring to their fleet as the "Klingon Defence Force". Which is pretty weird given they're the most warlike race of all...

That's true, but there's a number of reasons for that. The first, of course, is the post Star Trek VI military contraction of the Klingon Empire and the Federation aid and alliance. They clearly have a big fleet by TNG so they probably had several major military changes as well as the social and political change that while they're not inclined to back down from a fight they also aren't likely to just seize a planet because they want it. The name change could be the result of Federation influence, changing social mores, or changing military priorities or a combination of all three. It's also important to keep in mind the English version of the name might be the Klingon Defence Force but that is a translation from a language spoken by a species that uses war and violent struggle as central tenants of existence and a metaphor for all aspects of life. Remember that the Klingons consider all members of the KDF to be warriors and they aren't going to have any doubts that the KDF are willing to fight any war the High Council and the Klingon people wish them to fight.

Esquire wrote:

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:GHETTO EDIT: Something else that occurred to me in the "military in all but name", the Klingons of all people get in on the act too by referring to their fleet as the "Klingon Defence Force". Which is pretty weird given they're the most warlike race of all...

Mistranslation? After all, the best defense is a good offense...

I was thinking the exact same thing, in addition to what Imperial Overlord specified. The word Defense might also have different connotations in the Klingon language. For example, Defense might have a somewhat broader definition, including the defense of the honor of the Klingon Empire and its leaders which we all know can include outright aggressive warfare.

I think the KDF was only really a thing in TNG and DS9 where the Klingons really were less aggressive after the Khitomer Peace. Ent And TOS refer to the Klingon Imperial Fleet instead.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

Esquire wrote:

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:GHETTO EDIT: Something else that occurred to me in the "military in all but name", the Klingons of all people get in on the act too by referring to their fleet as the "Klingon Defence Force". Which is pretty weird given they're the most warlike race of all...

Mistranslation? After all, the best defense is a good offense...

I was thinking the exact same thing, in addition to what Imperial Overlord specified. The word Defense might also have different connotations in the Klingon language. For example, Defense might have a somewhat broader definition, including the defense of the honor of the Klingon Empire and its leaders which we all know can include outright aggressive warfare.

should be noted that klingons have also been somewhat hypocritical when it comes to things like warfare. For example all klingon ships have cloaks and those cloaks are used for sneak attacks, yet if someone were to use sneak attack tactics against klingons (even using "terrain" like planets or asteroids to mask you aproach rather then a cloak), klingons would decry it as dishonorble tactics in interstellar politics version of "no fair!" when the tables are turned on them.

One intresting thing I noticed about the Franklin is that Scotty specified that she has Pulse Phase cannon (emphasis mine) and we do know that beam style phasers so exist in these movies as the Kelvin had them in addition to rapid fire pulse cannons that became the prime form of phasers in later designs.

Lord Revan wrote:One intresting thing I noticed about the Franklin is that Scotty specified that she has Pulse Phase cannon (emphasis mine) and we do know that beam style phasers so exist in these movies as the Kelvin had them in addition to rapid fire pulse cannons that became the prime form of phasers in later designs.

IIRC those were the (extremely weak) weapons the NX-01 were equipped with before it got its phase cannons. It was only in the 2009 film that phasers were actually shown to be used in point defence, shooting down projectiles in much the same was as the Phalanx did in Battleship.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:One intresting thing I noticed about the Franklin is that Scotty specified that she has Pulse Phase cannon (emphasis mine) and we do know that beam style phasers so exist in these movies as the Kelvin had them in addition to rapid fire pulse cannons that became the prime form of phasers in later designs.

IIRC those were the (extremely weak) weapons the NX-01 were equipped with before it got its phase cannons. It was only in the 2009 film that phasers were actually shown to be used in point defence, shooting down projectiles in much the same was as the Phalanx did in Battleship.

I'd have to check but I'm pretty sure it was explictly stated that NX-01 had no phase weapons before installing the 2 beam turrets and weapons it had before were some low yield plasma/particle weapons.

though the visual seems to be the same as the Enterprise and Franklin phasers in Beyond (a small(ish) red bolt fired rapidly).

Intresting side seems that the Kelvin Timeline Photon torps don't seem to proximity fuse capability as they flew thru the "bees" when fired at them.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Well, North Korea calls itself the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Governments bullshit all the time.

The general principle seems to be that if they feel they really have to put "Democratic" in their actual name, they aren't.

A decent Star Trek film, better than the "White Khan" one and back to the roots (peace versus violence).

Why is everyone saying the Enterprise A is a carbon copy of the 1701? She is clearly a refit design as she is more robust looking in both the nacelles and in the engineering section.http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/USS_E ... CC-1701-A)

Also I'm quoting from Memory Alpha here

The USS Enterprise-A was designed by Sean Hargreaves who described it as “evolutionary rather than revolutionary” in its relationship to its predecessor designed by Ryan Church. Hargreaves also stated that the Enterprise-A was designed with the vulnerabilities of the previous Enterprise being reinforced and visual nods to Matt Jefferies original design being included, such as changing the rim of the saucer from a near-verticle angle to a near-45 degree angle.

Lord Revan wrote: I'd have to check but I'm pretty sure it was explictly stated that NX-01 had no phase weapons before installing the 2 beam turrets and weapons it had before were some low yield plasma/particle weapons.

I'm 99% sure they were plasma weapons / plasma bolts in the first couple of episodes, which is then later upgraded to the phase cannons.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:One intresting thing I noticed about the Franklin is that Scotty specified that she has Pulse Phase cannon (emphasis mine) and we do know that beam style phasers so exist in these movies as the Kelvin had them in addition to rapid fire pulse cannons that became the prime form of phasers in later designs.

IIRC those were the (extremely weak) weapons the NX-01 were equipped with before it got its phase cannons. It was only in the 2009 film that phasers were actually shown to be used in point defence, shooting down projectiles in much the same was as the Phalanx did in Battleship.

Pulsed Phase Cannon were the upgraded version of phase cannon that got used in the xindi war. Spatial torpedoes were the projectile weapons they initially had before getting 'photonic torpedeos' in the xindi arc.

Presumably photonic torpedoes did not become widespread if the romulan war was fought with nukes.

Crazedwraith wrote:

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:One intresting thing I noticed about the Franklin is that Scotty specified that she has Pulse Phase cannon (emphasis mine) and we do know that beam style phasers so exist in these movies as the Kelvin had them in addition to rapid fire pulse cannons that became the prime form of phasers in later designs.

IIRC those were the (extremely weak) weapons the NX-01 were equipped with before it got its phase cannons. It was only in the 2009 film that phasers were actually shown to be used in point defence, shooting down projectiles in much the same was as the Phalanx did in Battleship.

Pulsed Phase Cannon were the upgraded version of phase cannon that got used in the xindi war. Spatial torpedoes were the projectile weapons they initially had before getting 'photonic torpedeos' in the xindi arc.

Presumably photonic torpedoes did not become widespread if the romulan war was fought with nukes.

Assuming that ships smaller than the NX-class weren't retrofitted, or more likely possessed improved versions of what they had since the ones the Enterprise carried were uterly useless.

Admiral Drason wrote:Why is everyone saying the Enterprise A is a carbon copy of the 1701? She is clearly a refit design as she is more robust looking in both the nacelles and in the engineering section.http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/USS_E ... CC-1701-A)

Also I'm quoting from Memory Alpha here

The USS Enterprise-A was designed by Sean Hargreaves who described it as “evolutionary rather than revolutionary” in its relationship to its predecessor designed by Ryan Church. Hargreaves also stated that the Enterprise-A was designed with the vulnerabilities of the previous Enterprise being reinforced and visual nods to Matt Jefferies original design being included, such as changing the rim of the saucer from a near-verticle angle to a near-45 degree angle.

It looks pretty similar - not as dramatic a jump as the Ent-B, C, D and E were from each of their predecessors. I'm holding off on stating anything about the Ent-A till some high-quality pictures make their way online, or I see the film again because it's appearance was so quick. Based on that picture I can see how they "built them up" some of the weaknesses as the quote you posted mentions. The nacelles look a bit more sturdy. The position of the saucer does seem tweaked slightly, and I do see the angle on the saucer. But the major components look the same as the ship's predecessor.

I do appreciate that after literally tearing up the Enterprise and exposing all the designs flaws the internet has railed about for years they just make essentially the same darn ship.