Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9
Posted: 2016-12-12 05:31am
I'd figure the problem with Warp Strafing would more be targeting issues. The right time to fire at an STL target when an FTL must be absolutely tiny.
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Don't you notice that you are giving the evidence you asked for yourself?Lord Revan wrote:then SHOW US THAT IT IS SO RISKY!
We know that the Dominion would rather risk fighting the defenses of DS9 at Sublight instead of strafing from the safety of warp, so that risk must be quite high as the founders aren't known to care about the solids they rule.
What am I supposed to show you?Lord Revan wrote:Yet you've shown us nothing, not a single thing.
Maybe it is not the mass that makes flying within a solar system risky - especially when they are flying away from it. Maybe it has more to do with navigational hazards.Lord Revan wrote:the thing about Redemtion it was in close orbit of a STAR, you known that the Sun has more mass then the rest of solar system combinied, if going to warp from the orbit of an typical m-class planet posed signifigant enough risk that it done rarely because of that risk, then going to warp from orbit of a star would outright impossible.
That may be a reason.Crazedwraith wrote:I'd figure the problem with Warp Strafing would more be targeting issues. The right time to fire at an STL target when an FTL must be absolutely tiny.
To quote you yourself. Prove it. Prove they can make the calculations necessary. Prove they can fire their weapons in the necessary time frame. You're making the positive claim. That Warp-strafing is a viable tactic, prove it.WATCH-MAN wrote:That may be a reason.Crazedwraith wrote:I'd figure the problem with Warp Strafing would more be targeting issues. The right time to fire at an STL target when an FTL must be absolutely tiny.
Convincing it is not.
Knowing where exactly DS9 is they have enough time to calculate when exactly they have to fire their weapons. They have FTL sensors. And their weapons - especially their torpedoes - are FTL weapons and should be able to compensate for small derivations from the calculations.
WATCH-MAN wrote:I simply have asked you to provide evidence for your claim that
These were your claims and I simply wondered if they are true, if what we really know about the Star Trek universe from what we have seen on-screen supports such conclusions.
- Kirk is used to warp straight out of orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason and
- Picard orders warp speed while still in orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason.
They only have to match speed exactly for transporting - which of course makes sense because of what they're doing with molecules and it only has a 40,000km range-radius around the ship so if one is going warp 9 and the other at warp 9.0001, they're gonna be out of range in less than the 6 seconds it takes to cycle a transporter beam.FireNexus wrote:There is no evidence that warp strafing is used, so there must be a reason. Didn't the ED have to match warp with a vessel to exchange fire with it? Given how we know warp drives work, maybe crossing the boundary between the subspace bubble and the normal unwarped space is enough to shred the sensitive electronics needed for a photon.
Why in gods name would I give a list of citations and time (they're all literally the last sentences spoken per episode) if not true? haha.WATCH-MAN wrote: Yes.
And I still have to check if what you claim is correct.
They do aft fire at warp. They do it in Encounter at Far Point and Q Who off the top of my head.Sea Skimmer wrote:It would kind of make sense if warp-sublight fire did not work, because the moment your weapons left the warp bubble...you hit them. That might also explain why they can't fire aft, for physical reasons the fire at sublight speed, can't account for the relative whatever the hell we call velocity at that point part, difference. So they will never hit and keep moving with the ship. Matched speed warp-warp combat meanwhile just works.
No, never, to my knowledge.Sea Skimmer wrote:But aft at warp to sublight in that? I do not recall that ever
The Enterprise was moving sublight as it was carrying the ambassador and the Dohlman (Elaan) back to Troyius (neighboring world, same system!), and the ambassador needed time to instruct Elaan on Troyian custom to secure peace between the two worlds. A saboteur for the Klingons (Kryton) rigged the M/AM pods to explode if the Enterprise went to warp (then the dilithium crystal converter assembly is fused), so the power available was limited to impulse, so no power for phasers. The Klingon ship makes a few passes at warp 7 (firing disruptors) before the plucky intrepid heroes work out that the "common crystals" of the necklace for the Dohlman are dilitium (thus the deus ex for the fight, and the reason for the Klingon interest in the system and purpose for sabotaging the peace effort.)Simon_Jester wrote:There was another TOS episode, Elaan of Troyius, where the Enterprise's warp drive is sabotaged, and a Klingon ship attacks the Enterprise. Maneuvering on impulse power, they are unable to keep up with the Klingons, indicating that the Klingon ship is moving at warp.*
However, in this case it's unclear whether the Enterprise is unable to defend itself effectively because it's stuck at impulse while the enemy moves at warp... Or whether the Enterprise is unable to defend itself because the sabotage to the warp core took out power for the phasers.
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*Editing in a footnote: probably moving at warp. We have no special reason to think that Klingon warships are vastly faster or more maneuverable than the Enterprise, when both ships are traveling at impulse power.
Actually, it is:Lord Revan wrote:while it's not outright stated that Chang's BoP is a prototype
TUC wrote: KIRK: Hold on. ...How many of those things are there? Come on, Lieutenant!
VALERIS: Just the prototype.
Given that the range figure changes Sulu keeps calling out are decidedly sublight it sounds more like they made their approach at Warp but slowed to impulse for the actual firing run.Khaat wrote: The Enterprise was moving sublight as it was carrying the ambassador and the Dohlman (Elaan) back to Troyius (neighboring world, same system!), and the ambassador needed time to instruct Elaan on Troyian custom to secure peace between the two worlds. A saboteur for the Klingons (Kryton) rigged the M/AM pods to explode if the Enterprise went to warp (then the dilithium crystal converter assembly is fused), so the power available was limited to impulse, so no power for phasers. The Klingon ship makes a few passes at warp 7 (firing disruptors) before the plucky intrepid heroes work out that the "common crystals" of the necklace for the Dohlman are dilitium (thus the deus ex for the fight, and the reason for the Klingon interest in the system and purpose for sabotaging the peace effort.)
tl;dr - yes, warp strafing by Klingons at warp against target at impulse.
I stand corrected then I've not seen the movie in a while so, I had forgot that line (or maybe it was in the script and not the movie I cannot remember). Regardless I phrased it coservatively to make sure that there's was little to no logical reason to nitpick it to hell.Captain Seafort wrote:Actually, it is:Lord Revan wrote:while it's not outright stated that Chang's BoP is a prototype
TUC wrote: KIRK: Hold on. ...How many of those things are there? Come on, Lieutenant!
VALERIS: Just the prototype.
Ahh, but there is. Brian covered that in his Federation v. Empire video. I grant that he's few examples and, iirc, most if not all come from TOS; nonetheless, it is a viable tactic ...FireNexus wrote:There is no evidence that warp strafing is used, so there must be a reason.
Well, we do get missiles that, canonically, have the ability to close insane distances or manage insane turning radii, as good as or better than a Sprint- we just don't see them acting that way in all ways like we'd expect.Sea Skimmer wrote:Also that avoids the on screen problem of the space battle being absurdly fast and not filling time or looking too clear for the foolish viewers, the same reason why we don't get Sprint speed missiles for sci fi anything ever on screen.
I think the passes were supposed to at warp (vs impulse target), but that's the writers. The ranges certainly suggest dropping in and out of warp (or that the writers don't understand the ranges warp would involve), but it wasn't actually mentioned that the klingons dropped out of warp to fire. Turning the Enterprise at warp 2 before firing torpedoes also suggests the klingons would have been still moving at warp.Batman wrote:Given that the range figure changes Sulu keeps calling out are decidedly sublight it sounds more like they made their approach at Warp but slowed to impulse for the actual firing run.Khaat wrote: *snip Elaan of Troyius stuff*.