Shiphandling is one thing, knowing what button to push is another.Simon_Jester wrote:Command qualification usually entails knowledge of basic shiphandling. If it didn't, you'd have a lot more captains accidentally crashing their ships by ordering them to sail into rocks or other ships or dangerous storms.
replace Voyager with enterprise
Moderator: Vympel
- Captain Seafort
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1750
- Joined: 2008-10-10 11:52am
- Location: Blighty
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
- Elheru Aran
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 13073
- Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
- Location: Georgia
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
An example, perhaps, of the pernicious influence of the Roddenberry? (Granted, he didn't really have any input on Generations IIRC, it being after his death?)Captain Seafort wrote:Shiphandling is one thing, knowing what button to push is another.Simon_Jester wrote:Command qualification usually entails knowledge of basic shiphandling. If it didn't, you'd have a lot more captains accidentally crashing their ships by ordering them to sail into rocks or other ships or dangerous storms.
Bear with me. His vision of Starfleet wasn't a military as much as it was glorified suits flying about space. The Roddenberryian concept was civilian space explorers using a quasi-military structure to run their affairs. Under these circumstances, a superior officer could have a theoretical concept of how certain operations are performed, but have little to no practical experience due to being devoted to their specialty, versus the real-world military where quite frequently officer candidates have to go through a minimum of basic training and learning certain essential functions of most roles in the military in order to perform their jobs. Does a Colonel in the USAF know how to fix a jet engine? Not necessarily, but he probably knows damn well how it works, and probably had to take one apart at some point as part of his training. Ditto radar/avionics, weapons, and so forth.
Starfleet, on the other hand, apparently does not require this type of broad knowledge base in their officers, at least in the TNG era. They believe they can afford for their officers to be extremely specialized and that if there is a shortfall in one area, they will bring in an officer who is familiar with that function. So for officers that are not expected to serve regularly in a secondary position, they might only expect them to hit the bare minimum of proficiency and allow them to get by with that. So Troi passes bridge officer certification, but her day to day job is still ship's counselor (and why the hell they have a ship's counselor sitting by the Captain on the bridge I'll never know, damn you Gene) and she rarely (almost never) has reason to put the bridge-officer certification to the test because there's always a qualified officer on hand for the most part.
I could be off base, haven't slept in a long time...
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
-
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 11926
- Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
- Location: Cheshire, England
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
Pretty. But it did have to miss out the best/most complex shot of Voyager parting the nebula thingie.Themightytom wrote:Simon covered my response. also I just discovered that somebody out there actually took the time to do this
Star trek voyager intro featuring the Enterprise-…: http://youtu.be/IWg68e9k1tQ
- Themightytom
- Sith Devotee
- Posts: 2818
- Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
- Location: United States
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
you know I just re watched the battle scene from generation and I have to say not only is Troi not incompetent but Riker can't really be blamed
here either, at least in the battle.
Troi took the helm and just literally continued the maneuver the previous pilot started, riker went back to tactical, asked worf about any tactical weaknesses and actually came up with the idea to force the BOP back into cloak. Worf only got one shot off at the BOP which didn't bother it and he didn't really bother with anything elae until he fired the one torpedo. It was really only the last torpedo from the klingons that caused the breach too.
Troi engaged impulse to get clear of the blast but the.explosion knocked the helm controls offline. Data only got auxiliary power to restore some control when they were already skimming mountains.
Maybe Crusher could have done a better job, she didnt notice the transmitter in Geordi's visor and cleared him for duty right when he got back from being tortured.
here either, at least in the battle.
Troi took the helm and just literally continued the maneuver the previous pilot started, riker went back to tactical, asked worf about any tactical weaknesses and actually came up with the idea to force the BOP back into cloak. Worf only got one shot off at the BOP which didn't bother it and he didn't really bother with anything elae until he fired the one torpedo. It was really only the last torpedo from the klingons that caused the breach too.
Troi engaged impulse to get clear of the blast but the.explosion knocked the helm controls offline. Data only got auxiliary power to restore some control when they were already skimming mountains.
Maybe Crusher could have done a better job, she didnt notice the transmitter in Geordi's visor and cleared him for duty right when he got back from being tortured.
"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
Crusher isn't an engineering officer, nor was she worried about the possibility of the visor being compromised. She was concerned with getting Geordi back on his feet. In an emergency such as the one they had, they probably couldn't afford to have Geordi sit it out. He could rest and recover after the emergency, after all, but they need his knowledge right then and there. Light duty should have been ordered, but meh.
Just from what Themightytom said, I'm willing to shift my stance a bit to lay a fair amount of criticism at Worf's feet. Fired once, no damage, didn't rotate shield frequency, didn't detect an unauthorized transmission, all of it. It's like he just phoned in that day. "mumble mumble Klingon ritual mumble mumble" Unless he was depressed because getting dunked in the water caused him to lose his powerful and mighty Klingon musk.
Just from what Themightytom said, I'm willing to shift my stance a bit to lay a fair amount of criticism at Worf's feet. Fired once, no damage, didn't rotate shield frequency, didn't detect an unauthorized transmission, all of it. It's like he just phoned in that day. "mumble mumble Klingon ritual mumble mumble" Unless he was depressed because getting dunked in the water caused him to lose his powerful and mighty Klingon musk.
"I subsist on 3 things: Sugar, Caffeine, and Hatred." -Baffalo late at night and hungry
"Why are you worried about the water pressure? You're near the ocean, you've got plenty of water!" -Architect to our team
"Why are you worried about the water pressure? You're near the ocean, you've got plenty of water!" -Architect to our team
-
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 30165
- Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
Given that we routinely see the helm position being handed off between officers and extras on a regular basis, I suspect that the Trek setting has gotten the hang of a user-friendly helm interface. I would be surprised if in Star Trek they teach shiphandling without teaching you the basics of how to pilot a ship.Captain Seafort wrote:Shiphandling is one thing, knowing what button to push is another.Simon_Jester wrote:Command qualification usually entails knowledge of basic shiphandling. If it didn't, you'd have a lot more captains accidentally crashing their ships by ordering them to sail into rocks or other ships or dangerous storms.
Well, the point is that she's got certification, she should know the basics that such certification entails: the ability to handle the ship and run the key stations on a basic level. Which stations vary, but since helm is probably the single most common one to be reassigned during an emergency, it is the one most likely to be part of bridge officer certification.Elheru Aran wrote:Bear with me. His vision of Starfleet wasn't a military as much as it was glorified suits flying about space. The Roddenberryian concept was civilian space explorers using a quasi-military structure to run their affairs. Under these circumstances, a superior officer could have a theoretical concept of how certain operations are performed, but have little to no practical experience due to being devoted to their specialty, versus the real-world military where quite frequently officer candidates have to go through a minimum of basic training and learning certain essential functions of most roles in the military in order to perform their jobs. Does a Colonel in the USAF know how to fix a jet engine? Not necessarily, but he probably knows damn well how it works, and probably had to take one apart at some point as part of his training. Ditto radar/avionics, weapons, and so forth.
Starfleet, on the other hand, apparently does not require this type of broad knowledge base in their officers, at least in the TNG era. They believe they can afford for their officers to be extremely specialized and that if there is a shortfall in one area, they will bring in an officer who is familiar with that function. So for officers that are not expected to serve regularly in a secondary position, they might only expect them to hit the bare minimum of proficiency and allow them to get by with that. So Troi passes bridge officer certification, but her day to day job is still ship's counselor (and why the hell they have a ship's counselor sitting by the Captain on the bridge I'll never know, damn you Gene) and she rarely (almost never) has reason to put the bridge-officer certification to the test because there's always a qualified officer on hand for the most part.
I could be off base, haven't slept in a long time...
I mean, I never saw Roddenbury intending to portray Federation officers as overspecialized. The chief engineer seems to understand all shipboard systems, the weapons officers understand all the weapons. People like Riker and Picard who are in a generalized command track seem to have pretty good knowledge of all systems they encounter.
Someone like Crusher or Troi, of course, does have a primary specialization and might really only know that particular subject well... but if they're certified to fly the ship, it's safe to assume they actually know how to fly the ship. And a "bridge officer" certification that doesn't include "this is how to fly the ship in an emergency" isn't a very complete certification program.
As to why they have the counselor sitting by the captain... that might actually just be Picard's idea for all I know. Troi is an empath, and her empathic abilities routinely prove helpful to Picard when he's engaged in negotiations. Since Picard spends a LOT of time engaged in diplomacy, and often uses diplomacy as the main tool in his toolkit, having his single most valuable diplomacy-assistant at his side at all times can be advantageous to him.
If it weren't common practice for the ship's counselor to be on the bridge by the captain aboard the Enterprise prior to Picard's tenure, I imagine Picard would have ordered Troi to make it so.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
- Themightytom
- Sith Devotee
- Posts: 2818
- Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
- Location: United States
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
I have been nursing a private theory that Troi was actually there for Picard, more than the crew. maybe he didn't bounce back from the Stargazer incident quite as easily as at first glance and second guessed himself horribly after that. I would hate to think commanding a starship with over a thousand crew is considered a supported employment option in the future, but then again, look at Starfleet's "penal" system.
If Troi is the ship's counselor... for a ship that large... and she spends an eight hour shift on the bridge, she is probably not actually doing her job well for the rest of the crew.
Which actually would make the events of Caretaker REALLY interesting in terms of Picard's reaction now that I think about it, I mean it's bad enough he loses some crew who have served under him for eight years but... AGAIN??
If Troi is the ship's counselor... for a ship that large... and she spends an eight hour shift on the bridge, she is probably not actually doing her job well for the rest of the crew.
Which actually would make the events of Caretaker REALLY interesting in terms of Picard's reaction now that I think about it, I mean it's bad enough he loses some crew who have served under him for eight years but... AGAIN??
"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
- The Romulan Republic
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 21559
- Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
Picard has lost lots of crew members over the years. But I don't know how many of those were long term crew members and most of them weren't part of his inner circle. The only one of his top officers on the Enterprise who permanently perished is Data.
Edit: Actually, I recall hearing about some way Data could have been brought back. But since Nemesis fucked the franchise, it didn't happen.
Edit: Actually, I recall hearing about some way Data could have been brought back. But since Nemesis fucked the franchise, it didn't happen.
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
Don't forget Tasha Yar.The Romulan Republic wrote:Picard has lost lots of crew members over the years. But I don't know how many of those were long term crew members and most of them weren't part of his inner circle. The only one of his top officers on the Enterprise who permanently perished is Data.
Edit: Actually, I recall hearing about some way Data could have been brought back. But since Nemesis fucked the franchise, it didn't happen.
ASVS('97)/SDN('03)
"Whilst human alchemists refer to the combustion triangle, some of their orcish counterparts see it as more of a hexagon: heat, fuel, air, laughter, screaming, fun." Dawn of the Dragons
ASSCRAVATS!
"Whilst human alchemists refer to the combustion triangle, some of their orcish counterparts see it as more of a hexagon: heat, fuel, air, laughter, screaming, fun." Dawn of the Dragons
ASSCRAVATS!
- The Romulan Republic
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 21559
- Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
Oh yes. How could I forget poor Tasha Yar? Especially when I've been playing Star Trek Online, where her daughter is a major villain.
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
In regards to Troi being there for Picard, wouldn't one of the things they check for be competence to command? I mean, he had to defend himself in a bitter court martial, and thus prove he'd been competent at the time, but surely other than disenchanting him of the glory of command, he'd still be qualified and capable. Given the situations he's been in throughout the show.
Then again, I've always secretly believed Troi was there as a political officer, watching the crew and Picard and happening to become friends with them. But I mean, just look at how she speaks and acts. And you can tell she's not giving everyone the full account of what's going on. That or she really is that blindingly stupid.
Then again, I've always secretly believed Troi was there as a political officer, watching the crew and Picard and happening to become friends with them. But I mean, just look at how she speaks and acts. And you can tell she's not giving everyone the full account of what's going on. That or she really is that blindingly stupid.
"I subsist on 3 things: Sugar, Caffeine, and Hatred." -Baffalo late at night and hungry
"Why are you worried about the water pressure? You're near the ocean, you've got plenty of water!" -Architect to our team
"Why are you worried about the water pressure? You're near the ocean, you've got plenty of water!" -Architect to our team
- The Romulan Republic
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 21559
- Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
Not this shit again. There is no solid evidence I am aware of that the Federation has political officers.
-
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 30165
- Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
Starfleet repeatedly indicates that they have confidence in him professionally. It IS possible that Troi is watching Picard more closely than she's made out to be, though, I guess.Themightytom wrote:I have been nursing a private theory that Troi was actually there for Picard, more than the crew. maybe he didn't bounce back from the Stargazer incident quite as easily as at first glance and second guessed himself horribly after that. I would hate to think commanding a starship with over a thousand crew is considered a supported employment option in the future, but then again, look at Starfleet's "penal" system.
I'd be honestly surprised if she spends an eight hour shift on the bridge, since she usually isn't there unless the ship is sailing into some situation where you'd expect Picard to have called her up.If Troi is the ship's counselor... for a ship that large... and she spends an eight hour shift on the bridge, she is probably not actually doing her job well for the rest of the crew.
Uh... it's entirely believable that she seeks to do that anyway without being a political officer.Baffalo wrote:Then again, I've always secretly believed Troi was there as a political officer, watching the crew and Picard and happening to become friends with them.
That's very nonspecific. Could you be more precise?But I mean, just look at how she speaks and acts. And you can tell she's not giving everyone the full account of what's going on. That or she really is that blindingly stupid.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
It's my pet theory and I have to let it out every now and again to give it some air and stretch it's legs or else I get in trouble with the local law enforcement on mistreatment of animals.The Romulan Republic wrote:Not this shit again. There is no solid evidence I am aware of that the Federation has political officers.
Meh, mostly it just feels like, to me anyway, that she's overly vague with a lot of her feelings and guidance. I can only think of one instance off the top of my head when she gave a reasonably straight forward account of the situation, and that was when Picard was gone and the Enterprise was handed over to Captain Jellico. She comments the following:Simon_Jester wrote:That's very nonspecific. Could you be more precise?But I mean, just look at how she speaks and acts. And you can tell she's not giving everyone the full account of what's going on. That or she really is that blindingly stupid.
I understand that emotions are tricky things and vague impressions from a being with almost no physical similarity to yourself is hard, but how many times has she said something that, if removed from the script, wouldn't add or subtract anything?Chain of Command pt. 1 wrote:Riker: Well, I'll say this for him - he's sure of himself.
Troi: No, he's not.
I rather hate this line because as an empath, Troi should have a better grasp on what's going on. Flashes of intense anger when the depiction was wrong, embarrassment when it was revealed something scandalous... but no. Instead, she's playing the "You're both right and wrong" card, which is a cheap cop out.A Matter of Perspective wrote:Riker: We can't both be telling the truth.
Troi: It is the truth... as you each remember it.
Riker: Yes, but her version puts a noose around my neck."
Then again I tune out Troi a lot of times so if someone can point to another example of her being useful...
"I subsist on 3 things: Sugar, Caffeine, and Hatred." -Baffalo late at night and hungry
"Why are you worried about the water pressure? You're near the ocean, you've got plenty of water!" -Architect to our team
"Why are you worried about the water pressure? You're near the ocean, you've got plenty of water!" -Architect to our team
- Lord Revan
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 12229
- Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
- Location: Zone:classified
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
btw has it ever been explictily mentioned that Troi is the only councilor onboard the Enterprise?
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
- Batman
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 16386
- Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
- Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
She's routinely referred to as 'the' ship's councilor, never as 'one of our ship's councilors', 'our head ship councilor' and so on in ways that would indicate there's others.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
- Captain Seafort
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1750
- Joined: 2008-10-10 11:52am
- Location: Blighty
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
Crusher did, however, comment in The Loss that "There are several people on board who have degrees in psychology, who are qualified therapists."Batman wrote:She's routinely referred to as 'the' ship's councilor, never as 'one of our ship's councilors', 'our head ship councilor' and so on in ways that would indicate there's others.
- Themightytom
- Sith Devotee
- Posts: 2818
- Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
- Location: United States
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
Which actually suggests that Troi IS the only counselor despite a pool of qualified candidates.Captain Seafort wrote:Crusher did, however, comment in The Loss that "There are several people on board who have degrees in psychology, who are qualified therapists."Batman wrote:She's routinely referred to as 'the' ship's councilor, never as 'one of our ship's councilors', 'our head ship councilor' and so on in ways that would indicate there's others.
Picard "lost" Geordi (And Ro) when they had the transporter accident with the Romulans... the cold motherfucker just went business as usual! he DID get weepy about Data, the first time too, when the guy who was the collector faked his destruction, he got somewhat sentimental about Yar, although the crew was still fairly knew. I was under the impression he was very close to the Stargazer crew from the way he described them in The Battle but maybe his brain was addled by the globe.
"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
- Themightytom
- Sith Devotee
- Posts: 2818
- Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
- Location: United States
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
...Did Janeway really even remark on her mass casualties during the events of caretaker? i don't think I can remember her mentioning a memorial service. It was a couple days on the caretaker array, and a few more days in space making repairs, but I don't think she had one.
"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
-
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 30165
- Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
Maybe, but the characters don't normally act as though she isn't contributing. Maybe her empathic readings are helpful to them even if they sound like vague Madame Cleo stuff to us.Baffalo wrote:Meh, mostly it just feels like, to me anyway, that she's overly vague with a lot of her feelings and guidance. I can only think of one instance off the top of my head when she gave a reasonably straight forward account of the situation, and that was when Picard was gone and the Enterprise was handed over to Captain Jellico. She comments the following:Simon_Jester wrote:That's very nonspecific. Could you be more precise?But I mean, just look at how she speaks and acts. And you can tell she's not giving everyone the full account of what's going on. That or she really is that blindingly stupid.I understand that emotions are tricky things and vague impressions from a being with almost no physical similarity to yourself is hard, but how many times has she said something that, if removed from the script, wouldn't add or subtract anything?Chain of Command pt. 1 wrote:Riker: Well, I'll say this for him - he's sure of himself.
Troi: No, he's not.
I have recollections of multiple occasions where she alerts the crew of the Enterprise to treachery, the presence or absence of life forms, or provides clues as to the intentions of strange and exotic forms of life (including superbeings). Even when she doesn't independently fix everything, she still provides confirmation of important questions and so on.
There's a difference between "the counselor" and "the psychiatrist." For example, 'counseling' would probably include talk therapy but not prescription of psychiatric medications. So "ship's counselor" may be a specific job description which includes vetting the mental stability of senior officers and the morale of the crew or some such, while the medical branch as a whole also has one or more psychiatrists/psychologists other than the counselor.Themightytom wrote:Which actually suggests that Troi IS the only counselor despite a pool of qualified candidates.Captain Seafort wrote:Crusher did, however, comment in The Loss that "There are several people on board who have degrees in psychology, who are qualified therapists."Batman wrote:She's routinely referred to as 'the' ship's councilor, never as 'one of our ship's councilors', 'our head ship councilor' and so on in ways that would indicate there's others.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
- Themightytom
- Sith Devotee
- Posts: 2818
- Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
- Location: United States
Re: replace Voyager with enterprise
I don't understand how that isn't entirely evident from what was posted earlier am i missing something?Simon_Jester wrote:There's a difference between "the counselor" and "the psychiatrist." For example, 'counseling' would probably include talk therapy but not prescription of psychiatric medications. So "ship's counselor" may be a specific job description which includes vetting the mental stability of senior officers and the morale of the crew or some such, while the medical branch as a whole also has one or more psychiatrists/psychologists other than the counselor.Themightytom wrote:Which actually suggests that Troi IS the only counselor despite a pool of qualified candidates.
"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok