StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Simon_Jester wrote:Plus, quite frankly I can't understand why anyone in Star Trek who hasn't explicitly promised not to would ever NOT use cloaking devices on ships that could conceivably need to sneak up on someone. It's just a good idea all around for military purposes, and for that matter for peaceful purposes if you're trying to avoid conflict either through deterrence or through denying potential aggressors any easy targets.

So for me, the question isn't "why do Klingons use cloaking devices," it's "how come the Cardassians, the Borg, pretty much the entire Delta Quadrant, the Dominion, and so on don't?"

I can think of a few possible reasons:
- To keep cloaking devices able to defeat advancing sensor systems requires constant, expensive, R&D. Too expensive for many smaller civilisations to afford.
- Using cloaks causes diplomatic issues because they make it much harder for other civilisations to trust your civilisation because they know you are up to something that they can't see. Especially when an explorer accidentally crosses a border they didn't know about.
- The governments of the various civilisations don't trust their captains with cloaking devices.
- SFDebris once commented that the standard Borg greeting was one that conveyed a message of inevitability. Approaching under cloak would run counter to that message. Or Cubes might be too big to cloak easily.
- Coordination issues. For civilisations that fight using fleets, they have to know where the other fleet members are to prevent crashing into each other. But that means communication signals which could be picked up by whoever you are trying to hide from.
- A civilisation believes that their tech is so superior to that of everyone else (that they know of) that cloaking is unnecessary. Why sneak up on someone when you know that there is nothing they can do to stop you if you do decide to attack them, even when they see you coming ?

We know from "The Enterprise Incident" that the Romulans acquired Klingon ships(and presumably the tech to make them) due to a trade with the Klingon Empire. We later find out what this trade is for all this, cloaking devices. When we see the Romulans in Balance of Terror, they seem rather primitive compared to the Enterprise. I wouldn't be surprised if the Klingons jumped at the chance to get exclusive access to a technology that would give them an advantage against the Federation. The Klingons are known for giving tech to more primitive worlds to gain an advantage, as we saw in "A Private Little War". And for the majority of the 23rd century, the two were allies.

However, Romulan duplicity struck its ugly head. They turned on the Klingons, and nestled up close to the Federation. So much so, that the Federation President allowed the Romulan ambassador in his office during military briefings from Starfleet. This was also around the same time that the Romulans are declared 'blood enemies' by the Klingon Empire.

I think it was a gamble that the Klingons played, which bit them in the ass later on. They probably thought that the Romulans could be controlled as every other world they controlled through dirty tricks and limited technological advancement. But, this led to them creating their biggest rival who never played fair or could be trusted. The Federation, at least, while it could occasionally play dirty, could be relied upon to stick to peace when peace was brought to the table. So, the Klingons might have had to keep cloaking devices just to keep in competition with the Romulans.

It was only with the Federation and Klingons actually becoming allies that the Romulans became isolationist again due to knowing they couldn't fight both empires.

Simon_Jester wrote:<a neat theory of the Pakleds>

Obviously this is utterly noncanon and probably contradicts some canon somewhere, but I like it.

I dunno, it hangs together, and it does seem to explain everything we saw in that one TNG episode where they appeared. I like it as a concept.

I still feel like my notion (while obviously it doesn't apply to Kelvinverse so far, but we're doing a lot of prime discussion here, so...) that the Klingon race has two distinct divisions is a suitable answer. You have the devious, long-game-playing, sneaky smooth-forehead-brown-shoe-polish types with bad toupees running the show in TOS, because somehow they took power over the waffle-forehead types, their continent developed warp travel first, whatever. Then the waffle-foreheads take the position of power, genocide the smooth-foreheads, some smooth-foreheads undertake plastic surgery or genetic therapy to blend in, and the 'warrior culture' starts taking over in the interim between TOS and the movie era.

This explains how the smooth-forehead race was on the front lines in TOS, yet the movies have a dramatic change from one to the other, and a few formerly smooth-foreheaded Klingons show up in later episodes as waffle-foreheaded. I feel like if the Augment virus was so widespread that it changed a a large number of Klingons to the point that *every one* they ran into in TOS was of that type, it wouldn't be something they could very well have hushed up. But a genocide of a smaller population within an insular empire? Well, if there are no smooth-forehead types around to ask... who's gonna tell?

Don't get me wrong, the virus thing wasn't a BAD explanation, it was pretty decent. It just wasn't awesome. It also doesn't explain why Enterprise Klingons, who were pretty similar to the waffle-forehead TNG/DS9/VOY Klinks, would suddenly start wearing gold lame shirts and bad wigs over shoe polish in TOS. A cultural and racial difference makes more sense to me.

There was a story I read in one of the 'Strange New Worlds' collection as well that postulated (this was pre Enterprise by the way so... late 90s?) that the Klingons had used plastic surgery on a number of their soldiers in order to infiltrate the Federation, and for some reason a lot of those Klingons were on the front lines. But eventually this came to be considered 'dishonourable' and they discontinued the practice. It sounded reasonable enough to me at the time...

Going back to warp spacecraft design... The Federation ships are not military vessels. They're exploration craft. There could be millions of reasons to create a detachable saucer that's not connected to the warp drive. For example, warp drives can become unstable and explode. In this case, a detachable saucer could save the lives of the entire crew (if the malfunction is noticed at an appropriate stage, of course, and contained for enough time to detach and have the other section explode somewhere in safety). Warp drives can become radioactive over a long use-life, and thus be detached from the saucer and decomissioned, while a new drive with nacelles would be attached.

If other races design their ships differently, perhaps they just don't care about the constructive requirements for extended space exploration. Klingon ships and Romulan ships are primarly military craft. Why would they care about the survival of the crew in case the drive goes bad, when the most likely case of death would be explosion in combat? Therefore they design their ships differently, to maximize survival in combat.

It makes quite some sense to me. A spacecraft tracking or oceanographic ship would not have the armor or powerful engines of a cruiser or destroyer, but it would quite likely have a fair supply of emergency rescue equipment...

I think in the original Star Trek, Romulans powered the ships with some sort of contained singularity that couldn't be powered down (and thus decomissioned) at all. It doesn't look like they'd give two shits about any requirements for a starship other than war.

Yeah, it's a safe assumption that spacecraft design is at least partly a cultural thing, whether aesthetic or practical. To a certain degree, this is more possible with spacecraft than it is with watercraft, as there's less reasons to restrict the shape of the craft to certain highly efficient forms. Warp physics does add a second dimension, but I do think that cultural aesthetics have a large part to play in design.

bilateralrope wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:Plus, quite frankly I can't understand why anyone in Star Trek who hasn't explicitly promised not to would ever NOT use cloaking devices on ships that could conceivably need to sneak up on someone. It's just a good idea all around for military purposes, and for that matter for peaceful purposes if you're trying to avoid conflict either through deterrence or through denying potential aggressors any easy targets.

So for me, the question isn't "why do Klingons use cloaking devices," it's "how come the Cardassians, the Borg, pretty much the entire Delta Quadrant, the Dominion, and so on don't?"

I can think of a few possible reasons:
- To keep cloaking devices able to defeat advancing sensor systems requires constant, expensive, R&D. Too expensive for many smaller civilisations to afford.
- Using cloaks causes diplomatic issues because they make it much harder for other civilisations to trust your civilisation because they know you are up to something that they can't see. Especially when an explorer accidentally crosses a border they didn't know about.
- The governments of the various civilisations don't trust their captains with cloaking devices.
- SFDebris once commented that the standard Borg greeting was one that conveyed a message of inevitability. Approaching under cloak would run counter to that message. Or Cubes might be too big to cloak easily.
- Coordination issues. For civilisations that fight using fleets, they have to know where the other fleet members are to prevent crashing into each other. But that means communication signals which could be picked up by whoever you are trying to hide from.
- A civilisation believes that their tech is so superior to that of everyone else (that they know of) that cloaking is unnecessary. Why sneak up on someone when you know that there is nothing they can do to stop you if you do decide to attack them, even when they see you coming ?

The simple answer is to suggest that they're something the Romulans discovered that other cultures haven't. The Federation understands it to some degree because Kirk stole one, and other cultures with cloaking are the likes of Aldea and the Voth, which have a higher overall technology.

It could be that the Romulans have just made a key breakthrough in gravitational science that enables both their power cores and the bending of light, or it might be that they discovered the products of some elder race and backward engineered it.

NecronLord wrote:

bilateralrope wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:Plus, quite frankly I can't understand why anyone in Star Trek who hasn't explicitly promised not to would ever NOT use cloaking devices on ships that could conceivably need to sneak up on someone. It's just a good idea all around for military purposes, and for that matter for peaceful purposes if you're trying to avoid conflict either through deterrence or through denying potential aggressors any easy targets.

So for me, the question isn't "why do Klingons use cloaking devices," it's "how come the Cardassians, the Borg, pretty much the entire Delta Quadrant, the Dominion, and so on don't?"

I can think of a few possible reasons:
- To keep cloaking devices able to defeat advancing sensor systems requires constant, expensive, R&D. Too expensive for many smaller civilisations to afford.
- Using cloaks causes diplomatic issues because they make it much harder for other civilisations to trust your civilisation because they know you are up to something that they can't see. Especially when an explorer accidentally crosses a border they didn't know about.
- The governments of the various civilisations don't trust their captains with cloaking devices.
- SFDebris once commented that the standard Borg greeting was one that conveyed a message of inevitability. Approaching under cloak would run counter to that message. Or Cubes might be too big to cloak easily.
- Coordination issues. For civilisations that fight using fleets, they have to know where the other fleet members are to prevent crashing into each other. But that means communication signals which could be picked up by whoever you are trying to hide from.
- A civilisation believes that their tech is so superior to that of everyone else (that they know of) that cloaking is unnecessary. Why sneak up on someone when you know that there is nothing they can do to stop you if you do decide to attack them, even when they see you coming ?

The simple answer is to suggest that they're something the Romulans discovered that other cultures haven't. The Federation understands it to some degree because Kirk stole one, and other cultures with cloaking are the likes of Aldea and the Voth, which have a higher overall technology.

It could be that the Romulans have just made a key breakthrough in gravitational science that enables both their power cores and the bending of light, or it might be that they discovered the products of some elder race and backward engineered it.

We all know that the Treaty Of Algeron prohibited the Federation from developing cloaking tech. What frustrated me was that even when it was (finally) directly described in TATV, Riker failed to mention what the Feds actually gained from the deal. Regardless- with the destruction of the Romulan Homeworld thanks to the Hobus supernova, wouldn't that nullify the treaty and theoretically allow the Feds to install cloaks on their ships? The prospect of a Vengeance-class dreadnought with a cloaking device would be scary indeed!

Does that treaty even exist in the nuTrek universe? Do cloaks?

Batman wrote:Does that treaty even exist in the nuTrek universe? Do cloaks?

The script implies the treaty (or at least the bit banning cloaks) is only sixty years old as of 2371. So I guess not.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:We all know that the Treaty Of Algeron prohibited the Federation from developing cloaking tech. What frustrated me was that even when it was (finally) directly described in TATV, Riker failed to mention what the Feds actually gained from the deal.

Memory alpha describes the treaty as a peace treaty. So what the Federation got out of it was an end to a conflict.

As for losing cloaking devices, the Federation doesn't seem inclined to use them. Imagine that the Federation comes across a paranoid race. Having a cloaking device on the ship that came across them is only going to inflame the paranoia, making diplomatic solutions harder. So it's not much of a cost to the Federation to agree to not use something that they aren't planning to use in the first place.

Amusing thought: Imagine you're someone in the Federation on a committee deciding which research projects get resources. You don't like cloaking devices because the constant R&D needed to keep them working against improving sensor tech costs a lot of resources which you would prefer to see used on something that fits with the Federations principles. But there is one group* which keeps arguing for, and getting, resources for cloaking research. Then the Treaty of Algeron comes along. Would you support the cloak ban when you know it would lead to more resources for things you believe are useful ?

Yes, I'm saying that the cloaking ban might have been something the Federation offered the Romulans during negotiations, partly because it didn't cost the Federation much, partly to influence the Federations internal decision making. But it was probably a Romulan request.

*Probably with links to Section 31, since cloaks would allow them to do more while staying hidden from the Federation.

I know this is of topic from what the conversation has become but id like to hear your responses from what chuck says about the how military thing that I linked on my last post because I tend to agree with him.

If your long term plans/projections suggest that the Romulans will be friendly or absorbed into the Federation in the future then signing away them away in a treaty that will serve to accelerate that process is something one might consider. Add in that your allies the Klingons still have them and that they might be tempermental and dangerous devices to develop (which turns up in non-canon sources) then maybe signing away a tech you might not want to deal with anyway and still have access through your allies isn't such a big deal.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:We all know that the Treaty Of Algeron prohibited the Federation from developing cloaking tech. What frustrated me was that even when it was (finally) directly described in TATV, Riker failed to mention what the Feds actually gained from the deal. Regardless- with the destruction of the Romulan Homeworld thanks to the Hobus supernova, wouldn't that nullify the treaty and theoretically allow the Feds to install cloaks on their ships? The prospect of a Vengeance-class dreadnought with a cloaking device would be scary indeed!

Are you talking about the prime universe? No not really we've no grounds to think that the loss of the romulan homeworld has done anything to reduce their immediate military power (ships can move!) nor that it's put them out for the count entirely.


If you mean the JJverse, the Federation has a no-cloaks treaty with another power, at least according to memory alpha which cites computer graphics, I've not seen that.

Late to the party, but oh well. Finally saw in on Thursday.

I was very impressed overall. The right balance of nostalgia, action, adventure, humour, discovery and camp that I wanted to go back for the next showing.

The only things that really bothered me;
- How did Kirk and Chekov avoid being crushed by the saucer? It's... kinda big.
- Firefight while sliding down said saucer was a bit much.
- Yorktown right next to the unexplored NotANebula.
- The female alien being a mole was telegraphed so early on.
- Krall being able to access the ventilation systems that easily. Is his security clearance still valid somehow? Or did he just kill someone for their badge/pass/hand-scan offscreen?

Conversely, the things I liked the most;
- Developing the whole core crew. Everyone got limelight time and genuine development.
- The diversity among the crew; it makes the Federation/Starfleet actually feel big.
- The survivability of the Enterprise. Compare the shredding of the main deflector/engineering hull to what happened to the Odyssey in DS9, or any kind of nacelle damage in TNG onwards. Tough gal.
- The Spock/Bones banter.

And, of course...

Star Trek: The Next Generation
Picard: "We're so much more civilized than the barbaric capitalists of the 20th century, so we never play music recorded after 1875."

Star Trek Beyond
Deafening Broadcast: "So while you sit back and wonder why/I got this fucking thorn in my side/Oh my God, it's a mirage/I'm tellin' y'all IT'S SABOTAGE!"
Bones: "Is that... classical music?"
Spock: "... I believe so."

Venator wrote: Picard: "We're so much more civilized than the barbaric capitalists of the 20th century, so we never play music recorded after 1875."

No one recorded *any* music before 1857 so.... that doesn't leave much room for variation there.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Venator wrote: Picard: "We're so much more civilized than the barbaric capitalists of the 20th century, so we never play music recorded after 1875."

No one recorded *any* music before 1857 so.... that doesn't leave much room for variation there.

*Written.

Or, recorded on paper, if I wanted to exceedingly pedantic.

I think that was a stylistic choice. Riker playing jazz on his trombone or Picard listening to Chopin on the computer being watched by an audience today is still rather timeless, same as it was back in the 1980s. The reboot crew listening to Sabotage will seem rather dated in about 20 years.

Imagine if in Star Trek VI, Kirk played 'Baby got back' to the Klingons as a cultural exchange. I still enjoyed the sequence in the film, but Sabotage might become as silly and as much as a product of its time as the space hippies were in TOS.

Frankly I thought it was silly. "We're gonna defeat the bad guys with MUSIC!"

*shrugs* It's not the worst thing that's happened in the Trek franchise... it's just pretty corny.

Elheru Aran wrote:Frankly I thought it was silly. "We're gonna defeat the bad guys with MUSIC!"

*shrugs* It's not the worst thing that's happened in the Trek franchise... it's just pretty corny.

Why not?! It worked for the Silver Hawks.

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:

Elheru Aran wrote:Frankly I thought it was silly. "We're gonna defeat the bad guys with MUSIC!"

*shrugs* It's not the worst thing that's happened in the Trek franchise... it's just pretty corny.

Why not?! It worked for the Silver Hawks.

And in Mars Attacks

Elheru Aran wrote:Frankly I thought it was silly. "We're gonna defeat the bad guys with MUSIC!"

It wasn't, it was let's flood the part of the EM spectrum they're using to communicate (radio waves) with crap. Just so happens they used music but blasting static would have worked just as well. Just be a bit more boring for us watching.

Kraal wasn't defeated through the power of music or anything


Besides, Yorktown is officially the universe's larges subwoofer.

Beat that, SW.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:

Elheru Aran wrote:Frankly I thought it was silly. "We're gonna defeat the bad guys with MUSIC!"

*shrugs* It's not the worst thing that's happened in the Trek franchise... it's just pretty corny.

Why not?! It worked for the Silver Hawks.

And in Mars Attacks

And, I believe in Spaced Invaders as well.

How many times is Kirk gonna destroy the Enterprise before they take it away from him?

He's effectively destroyed it in all three nuTrek films.

MKSheppard wrote:How many times is Kirk gonna destroy the Enterprise before they take it away from him?

He's effectively destroyed it in all three nuTrek films.

NuTrek #1 - Against an enemy from the future, that trashed and entire fleet. Enterprise came through in pretty good condition. The other ship was lunched, the Enterprise needed repairs.

NuTrek #2 - Attacked by a superior enemy, using illegally developed technology. Enterprise came through in pretty good condition. The other ship was lunched, the Enterprise needed repairs.

NuTrek #3 - Complete Set up. Kirk attempted to withdrawl but couldn't. Fault also lies with the base command for sending them in without any support, or reliable intelligence. Any ship would have been destroyed. Successfully saved Yorktown and it's inhabitants.

He'd be cleared in any trial.