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Baffalo wrote:
The thing that confuses me the most is, why were most of the civilians in the stardrive section requiring evacuation? Or did they just decide to show people running around the corridors confused and scared? Where were these people when red alert was sounded? It's something that bugs me because either situation is stupid and shows almost complete ineptitude on behalf of Starfleet planners.

This bug goes back to "Encounter at Farpoint" - so, clearly some civilian quarters/facilities are in the stardrive section. Generations makes this look like a lot, but they seemed to be having fun making the Ent-D more populated in general, with the big-screen budget for extras. In the film, I was thrown by the evacuation of sickbay, which I always thought was in the saucer.

Maybe sections of the saucer were evacuated due to their potential to be damaged when the warp-core went up?

It makes sense for sickbay to be in the stardrive section since that's the part that would probably stay behind in a fight and sickbay would be needed to treat casualties.

Given how big the ship is and how many people are aboard (1000 crew plus families) I would imagine them having more than one sickbay. Probably the one we see being evacuated in Generations was in the stardrive section because that's where the damage and casualties were.

Baffalo wrote: "Captain, this new prototype engine is almost ready, but we have no margin of safety. If it doesn't perform flawlessly the first time we use it, it'll explode and take out 300,000 people."
"So when do we fire it up?"
"In about 20 minutes."

You mean like when they tested a new propulsion method for the very first time by firing the thing directly at an inhabited planet?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Soliton_wave

Borgholio wrote:

Baffalo wrote: "Captain, this new prototype engine is almost ready, but we have no margin of safety. If it doesn't perform flawlessly the first time we use it, it'll explode and take out 300,000 people."
"So when do we fire it up?"
"In about 20 minutes."

You mean like when they tested a new propulsion method for the very first time by firing the thing directly at an inhabited planet?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Soliton_wave

Dear Starfleet Research & Development.

Scientific progress should not come with a god damned body count. There are hundreds of worlds in uninhabited systems just waiting for you to do something without resorting to targeting worlds with a live population. I know you want to limit unwanted experimentation but shooting it at inhabited areas or using crews because they're available is... I believe the technical term is "Really Fucking Retarded".

Sincerely,

The average Federation citizen.

Themightytom wrote: Well I was saying that for one, because I had never seen it done successfully. "Planning to eject the core" is different than having an eject-able core. For all I figured it was just "seal engineering and blow everything not bolted down into space. "

Not doing it successfully doesn't mean the system doesn't exist. It just means it's crap.

Cause and Effect:

DATA The core shutdown was unsuccessful. We are losing antimatter containment.

GEORDI We've gotta eject the engine core!

DATA The ejection systems are off-line. A core breach is imminent...



For example.

The galaxy class had an ejection system.

Skylon wrote: This bug goes back to "Encounter at Farpoint" - so, clearly some civilian quarters/facilities are in the stardrive section. Generations makes this look like a lot, but they seemed to be having fun making the Ent-D more populated in general, with the big-screen budget for extras. In the film, I was thrown by the evacuation of sickbay, which I always thought was in the saucer.

Maybe sections of the saucer were evacuated due to their potential to be damaged when the warp-core went up?

There's multiple sick bays in a Galaxy class starship.

The galaxy class had an ejection system.

Yeah it just sucked ass. What I wonder is how it could be so difficult to shut down fuel flow to the core. It's not like a nuclear reactor where it's self-sustaining. You shut off the flow of antimatter and the thing just fizzles out. Surely there's a valve somewhere to do that, or an emergency vent to shunt the reaction safely outside the ship.

Baffalo wrote:Dear Starfleet Research & Development.

Scientific progress should not come with a god damned body count. There are hundreds of worlds in uninhabited systems just waiting for you to do something without resorting to targeting worlds with a live population. I know you want to limit unwanted experimentation but shooting it at inhabited areas or using crews because they're available is... I believe the technical term is "Really Fucking Retarded".

Sincerely,

The average Federation citizen.

Dear Average Federation citizen,

How many times do we have to apologize for testing the trilithium torpedos on your colony. We had to see what it could do. What more do you want from us? Small-scale experiments for new theories and technologies? The ability to escape the world in case of a hostile attack?

Pffft. We don't have a concept of a budget to make these happen. Besides, we thought it was a nice way to bring the adventure that you wanting when you left Earth. Quit your complaining; your every other need and want is taken care of by us.

Sincerely,
Starfleet Command

Borgholio wrote:

The galaxy class had an ejection system.

Yeah it just sucked ass. What I wonder is how it could be so difficult to shut down fuel flow to the core. It's not like a nuclear reactor where it's self-sustaining. You shut off the flow of antimatter and the thing just fizzles out. Surely there's a valve somewhere to do that, or an emergency vent to shunt the reaction safely outside the ship.

They do - they're called "Magnetic constrictors". They just get "locked" every now and again, in the "on" position.

The Enterprise (and I can't remember why - something forced them to stay open, it wasn't a "fault") nearly tore itself apart once because it just kept accelerating and accelerating over and over.

I really can't remember what caused it now. They ended up going so fast they couldn't eject the warp core or perform a saucer separation.

SilverDragonRed wrote:Dear Average Federation citizen,

How many times do we have to apologize for testing the trilithium torpedos on your colony. We had to see what it could do. What more do you want from us? Small-scale experiments for new theories and technologies? The ability to escape the world in case of a hostile attack?

Pffft. We don't have a concept of a budget to make these happen. Besides, we thought it was a nice way to bring the adventure that you wanting when you left Earth. Quit your complaining; your every other need and want is taken care of by us.

Sincerely,
Starfleet Command

Dear Starfleet Command,

We are a colony of 135 million people, all living on only one of the major continents. Would it be too much to ask that you at least aim for the other, uninhabited continent? We would be 284 million, but the trilithium airburst was rather bad. Oh, and could we please get some power generators that don't explode when a gnat farts two kilometers away?

Sincerely,

Your terrified citizens.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Themightytom wrote: Well I was saying that for one, because I had never seen it done successfully. "Planning to eject the core" is different than having an eject-able core. For all I figured it was just "seal engineering and blow everything not bolted down into space. "

Not doing it successfully doesn't mean the system doesn't exist. It just means it's crap.

Cause and Effect:

DATA The core shutdown was unsuccessful. We are losing antimatter containment.

GEORDI We've gotta eject the engine core!

DATA The ejection systems are off-line. A core breach is imminent...



For example.

The galaxy class had an ejection system.

Thank God you are here to verify my conclusions after I make them.

Borgholio wrote:

Baffalo wrote: "Captain, this new prototype engine is almost ready, but we have no margin of safety. If it doesn't perform flawlessly the first time we use it, it'll explode and take out 300,000 people."
"So when do we fire it up?"
"In about 20 minutes."

You mean like when they tested a new propulsion method for the very first time by firing the thing directly at an inhabited planet?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Soliton_wave

Well, it's one thing if they honestly think the thing is safe and encounter an entirely unknown and unforeseen failure mode once. Sometimes physics throws you a curve-ball, at least in a universe where the laws of physics are as complicated and exception-riddled as Star Trek's clearly are.

But having made this category of error once or twice, the lesson should be learned: all technology should be tested far away from anyone or anything because you really can't determine, by theory alone, what is or is not "safe."

Simon_Jester wrote:Sometimes physics throws you a curve-ball, at least in a universe where the laws of physics are as complicated and exception-riddled as Star Trek's clearly are.

But having made this category of error once or twice, the lesson should be learned: all technology should be tested far away from anyone or anything because you really can't determine, by theory alone, what is or is not "safe."

Yeah with that Soliton Wave thing they might have just discovered the greatest weapon of all time by accident, it just keeps getting stronger the further away it goes??? Good thing it disappeared into the continuity hole, someone could have wiped out the gamma quadrant.

Themightytom wrote:Yeah with that Soliton Wave thing they might have just discovered the greatest weapon of all time by accident, it just keeps getting stronger the further away it goes??? Good thing it disappeared into the continuity hole, someone could have wiped out the gamma quadrant.

Given how often Starfleet scientists stumble on these weapons of mass destruction, how the hell do the Romulans or Klingons NOT know about them? I mean, even if the Romulans aren't as research savvy as the Federation, surely they'd find something that could wipe out all their enemies, and they'd be totally on board with using it.

Romulan Scientist: "I've been poking around trying to increase energy yields and discovered a device that will completely destroy a planet."
Romulan Commander: "Excellent. Produce enough for every Federation and Klingon world, then brew up another thousand just to be sure."
Romulan Scientist: "Isn't that unethical?"
Romulan Commander: "Extremely."
Romulan Scientist: "Ok just making sure."

Baffalo wrote:Dear Starfleet Command,

We are a colony of 135 million people, all living on only one of the major continents. Would it be too much to ask that you at least aim for the other, uninhabited continent? We would be 284 million, but the trilithium airburst was rather bad. Oh, and could we please get some power generators that don't explode when a gnat farts two kilometers away?

Sincerely,

Your terrified citizens.

Dear Terrified Citizens,

In order to make up for all of that, we are shipping out a number of brand new untested tricobalt power generators for your colony (via a first-generation Galaxy class). They are safe, efficient, and reliable. To prove that they are, we developed a whole number of emergency procedures to follow just in case; namely, ZERO. Be sure to put these new generators in city square.

Sincerely,
Starfleet Research & Development

Baffalo wrote:

Themightytom wrote:Yeah with that Soliton Wave thing they might have just discovered the greatest weapon of all time by accident, it just keeps getting stronger the further away it goes??? Good thing it disappeared into the continuity hole, someone could have wiped out the gamma quadrant.

Given how often Starfleet scientists stumble on these weapons of mass destruction, how the hell do the Romulans or Klingons NOT know about them? I mean, even if the Romulans aren't as research savvy as the Federation, surely they'd find something that could wipe out all their enemies, and they'd be totally on board with using it.

That leads us to another problem, that being that the level of technology advancement we see in just the odd decade of the TNG timeline makes me wonder how the hell the Klingons are even threats at all. At lease the Romulans are kept elusive enough that they COULD be just as technologically advanced as the Federation and their ships we see back this up. People make fun of the Miranda recycle thing but that is peanuts to what we see the Klingons rolling around in routinely.

Patroklos wrote:That leads us to another problem, that being that the level of technology advancement we see in just the odd decade of the TNG timeline makes me wonder how the hell the Klingons are even threats at all. At lease the Romulans are kept elusive enough that they COULD be just as technologically advanced as the Federation and their ships we see back this up. People make fun of the Miranda recycle thing but that is peanuts to what we see the Klingons rolling around in routinely.

I really don't have an issue with the Miranda recycle, but the BoP issue is... yeah. I mean, a BoP has 25 crew and is essentially a Kia of Prey (Thank you SF Debris for that wonderful term). It got its ass handed to it by the Constitution back in the day, so taking on an Excelsior is just asking for trouble.

Now I know the Miranda and BoP are probably supposed to be upgraded along and they're not complicated platforms, but dayum. I mean, even if you upgrade the power plant, trying to stuff the same technology into the same basic chassis is going to run into issues eventually. Look at how advanced cars have gotten in the last 20 years alone. At some point, the technology will outstrip the ships, and while we did see some new designs, the BoP is still the main battle wagon of generals!

Now, an alternate theory is that while the BoP might be a generation behind, they still have enough that they can use overwhelming numbers. Remember, the Enterprise required 500 personnel to man and operate, while you could stuff the same crew onto 20 BoPs. Sheer weight of numbers means that if you just throw the manpower at the problem (and let's face it, getting the Klingons to charge something with insufficient equipment isn't hard), you can overwhelm it. Even the Enterprise looking at a fleet of Klingon ships had to turn back and go "Yeah uh, that's a little rich for us. Good luck Captain!" and hauled ass.

A cloaked BoP managed to kick the stuffings out of a Constitution and an Excelsior in TUC (it ended up the destroydest starship in filmed SciFi but until then it kicked ass). Add to that there have to be at least two different classes of BoP (B'rel/K'vort I believe it was) thanks to the inconsistent visuals and I don't see why in a universe where Mirandas are still worth keeping around in the 24th century BoPs can not be.

Regarding Klingon birds-of-prey, the Haynes Manual states even when a replacement is available, the Klingons prefer to keep older ship classes (at least in reserve, if not active service), "just in case." There are real-world militaries that do the same damn thing, for the same damn reason: See the Soviets keeping T-54 and T-55 tanks in service into the late 1970s (by then, the tanks would be 20+ years old), in The War That Never Was.

Baffalo wrote:Look at how advanced cars have gotten in the last 20 years alone.

Look at how far warship technology advanced between the Armada and Trafalgar. Fundamentally, not very far - they were still wooden sailing vessels with cannon firing solid metal balls propelled by gunpower. For that matter, HMS Sovereign of the Seas, had she magically been transported to Trafalgar, would have been one of the most powerful ships in Nelson's fleet, over 150 years after her launch.

Captain Seafort wrote:Look at how far warship technology advanced between the Armada and Trafalgar. Fundamentally, not very far - they were still wooden sailing vessels with cannon firing solid metal balls propelled by gunpower. For that matter, HMS Sovereign of the Seas, had she magically been transported to Trafalgar, would have been one of the most powerful ships in Nelson's fleet, over 150 years after her launch.

And look at USS Constitution! I mean, she can totally take on a a destroyer from 1914! Just give her a good headwind.

Yeah I know what you're saying but at some point, technology outstrips her ability to be effective. Sure, the BoP is using weapons still effective against modern vessels, but had Riker paid any attention he could have turned on that BoP and blown it to hell and back. And sure, Kirk and Sulu got their asses handed to them, but only until they saw the thing. Once that happened, it was game over. It was only the ability to fire while cloaked that offered Chang any advantage. It was only learning Enterprise's shield frequency that gave them any advantage. One on one, they're going to lose. Bad.

Federation ships are supposed to be constantly upgraded and enhanced and refit to include better, newer technologies. The example earlier of the Soviet army keeping T-54 and T-55 tanks... I'm sorry, but those things are NOT as effective as a modern M1A2 Abrams, which boosts advantages such as increased speed, the ability to fire while moving, ablative armor, etc. The T-54 would need to stop moving, aim, and try to hit a moving target, putting them right in the sights of the very enemy they're trying to hit and just saying, "Oh hi! Please turn me into a scrap heap!".

Now yeah, that was the 70's, and it could be argued that the US proved you could do more with inferior tanks, given how we threw tanks at the Germans in WWII that were clearly superior. I believe many commanders complained that their shots literally bounced off the thick German armor, and they could only get penetration from the back. Yeah, I'll grant that's a similar situation, but the tanks were both considered modern variants. You didn't see any WWI tanks winning any tank battles against the Panzer now did you?

My point in all this is that the Federation shouldn't have had any reason at all for losing a straight up fight against a BoP in combat. It was Riker's ineptitude that cost them the Enterprise-D.

Depends how modular Trek technology is, there is no reason you can't take off the disrupters from a ship and swap them for the more modern version, the only real problem is when hull shape/design causes you a problem with fitting things in which may not be a problem if your designing the thing to fit in your existing 500 hulls that you already have on hand or that you are quite attached to the shape of a BoP anyway so your brand new design looks pretty much the same anyway. There is no reason that a BoP we see in the DS9 era could have had its hull originally built in Kirk era but has had its engines replaced 5 times for newer versions, its disrupters changed 7 times and its warp core replaced twice whilslt its torpedo load was upgraded every time a new torpedo was released.

Regards the car analogy I'm sure if you had a real reason to do so you could design a modern engine and all its attached systems that would fit in the vast majority of cars ever built - the core fundamental of an engine and wheels has remained the same even if older body shapes might not be as efficient 50 years ago.

Warp nacelles only seem to be the external thing to change with Starfleet alone changing their core shape and design through the generations. We don't actually know if them doing so is for improved tech or performance or just because design themes have changed.

and how do we know that all BoP were built/designed in Kirk's era. For all we know the BoP we see in TNG era were built in that era and have nothing but the external apprance in common with the same ship style from the TOS movie era.

and besides we know that D7/K'tinga ship line was in use using the prelude to the dominion war and during the actual war so it's not unheard of for klingons to bring in older ships into frontline combat, also bulk of starfleet ships during TNG era were Exelciors or Mirandas that are as old the BoP line.

Batman wrote:A cloaked BoP managed to kick the stuffings out of a Constitution and an Excelsior in TUC (it ended up the destroydest starship in filmed SciFi but until then it kicked ass). Add to that there have to be at least two different classes of BoP (B'rel/K'vort I believe it was) thanks to the inconsistent visuals and I don't see why in a universe where Mirandas are still worth keeping around in the 24th century BoPs can not be.

Its not that they can't be kept around. There are plenty of roles for cheap old ships to accomplish. Mine sweeper. Sensor picket. Convoy escort. Training vessel. Fire ship (if there is an ST analog to that). My problem is that when you compare the Federation to the Klingons it appears based on the representation of the ships we see on screen that the Klingons have a very high percentage of their fleet made up of ships that would have antique plates if they were cars. Perhaps this is made up for by have the Klingons dedicate more tonnage to warfighting per ship than the Federation, but we have seen the Enterprise D destroy many Klingon vessels over the years.

Now we have to be carful of assuming too close or a analogue with say current warships or aircraft. While BOPs and Miranda's may be old there hasn't been any fundamental revolution in technology that would instantly obsolete them such as say going from sail to powered propulsion in real world warships or from prop to jet propulsion in aircraft. A Miranda and a Nebula class both use warp engines, one just has a better version. A BOP and Negh'Var also both use warp engines, one just has a better version. I observed the fast pace of technology development observed in so many episodes of TNG previously but most of it is evolutionary, ie a better warp engine but essentially the same technology.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Baffalo wrote:Look at how advanced cars have gotten in the last 20 years alone.

Look at how far warship technology advanced between the Armada and Trafalgar. Fundamentally, not very far - they were still wooden sailing vessels with cannon firing solid metal balls propelled by gunpower. For that matter, HMS Sovereign of the Seas, had she magically been transported to Trafalgar, would have been one of the most powerful ships in Nelson's fleet, over 150 years after her launch.

You are ignoring some very real differences in hull design and rigging in the intervening time period, not to mention cannon design and production improvements. But yeah outside the hull itself the Sovereign of the Seas could have been upgraded to be relevant at Trafalgar if it could have kept up with its subpar hull form. Which is relevant to the Miranda BOP discussion, could they be upgraded to be relevant?

Being relevant, however, is not the same thing as being optimal. I would still take the Victory over an upgraded Sovereign of the Seas any day, and if the British fleet had been nothing but upgraded Sovereign of the Seas and one or two victories I am sure that battle would have turned up differently.