Bioneural V Integrated

Mobird53 · Post by **Mobird53** » 2007-02-10 05:03pm

This is my Question Which is better Bioneural Circuitry or Integrated. And you can't just say so either. Find a specific Quote, or section of dialouge that says so or implies it, from some episode (of ST) that says which one is better. (But i'm sure this will get moved to HoS, just b/c i'm a troll)

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2007-02-10 05:09pm

Integrated circuits don't get infections from cheese.

Mobird53 · Post by **Mobird53** » 2007-02-10 05:14pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:Integrated circuits don't get infections from cheese.

True but was like the funniest episode. Come on the whole ship goes out of order because of some cheese. thats funny.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-02-10 05:20pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:Integrated circuits don't get infections from cheese.

On the other hand, bioneural looks cooler.

I don't think it was ever said that bioneural systems were objectively better; I don't see why something like a replicator would benefit from masses more computing power when normal circuitry does the job just fine. In fact, the pilot states that they're simply better at organizing data than the previously-used systems:

Caretaker wrote:Some of the traditional circuitry has been replaced by gel packs that contain bio-neural cells. They organise information more efficiently, speed up response time.

Sounds almost like a self-defragging hard drive, actually.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2007-02-10 07:13pm

Well, if it's biological it's going to need water and nutrients. If it's not biological it doesn't. So that's gotta be an advantage for integrated.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2007-02-10 07:34pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:Integrated circuits don't get infections from cheese.

Integrated circuits can be fried by EMP.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2007-02-10 07:35pm

Gustav32Vasa wrote:
Integrated circuits can be fried by EMP.

Not if there hardened which one would assume Trek circuits would be given they use nuclear weapons. Besides Trek circuits aren't true IC's but rather optical systems apperently.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-02-10 08:59pm

Have we ever witnessed an example of Voyager's computer doing something that the computers on the E-D couldn't do? Or doing something far more quickly than the E-D computers would have? Or operating in environments where the E-D computers could not operate? After all, it's something like a decade more advanced, in addition to being "bio-neural". If it's genuinely superior, you'd think this would have been demonstrated somewhere, in order to counteract the observed deficiencies.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-02-10 09:01pm

It did out-process the entire Borg collective, didn't it?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-02-10 09:09pm

Stark wrote:It did out-process the entire Borg collective, didn't it?

Given what we've seen of their strategic creativity, a sixth-grader could outprocess the Borg Collective.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-02-10 09:14pm

Darth Wong wrote:Given what we've seen of their strategic creativity, a sixth-grader could outprocess the Borg Collective.

They didn't even throw in a 'we couldn't do this without our bioneural silliness' line, either. Given what they say in the pilot, the entire system isn't bioneural anyway - it's just used for management or caching or something. Any bottlenecks in their conventional systems would still be there even if the bioneural stuff was much better.

Does anyone know if they ever used it again? The E-E appeared to have conventional electronics throughout, for example.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-02-10 09:19pm

Weren't Voyager's bio-neural doohickeys at risk of being cooked when they were passing extremely close through some superheated star or something like that? I seem to recall at least one episode of Voyager where they were at risk of being damaged due to extreme heat, but I could just be misremembering things. I've tried to actively forget most of the series.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2007-02-10 11:50pm

There was an episode when they entered a nebula where the crew had to go into hybernation to survive getting through and only the doc and 7 could stay awake during the trip.

You'd think they could do something simple like program an autopilot but nooooo.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2007-02-11 06:34pm

The only advantage Bioneural gelpacks have over non-bioneural circuits is that when the replicator breaks down, you can eat the Gel packs...

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2007-02-11 07:22pm

General Zod wrote:Weren't Voyager's bio-neural doohickeys at risk of being cooked when they were passing extremely close through some superheated star or something like that? I seem to recall at least one episode of Voyager where they were at risk of being damaged due to extreme heat, but I could just be misremembering things.

It would make perfect sense. As a biological system they'd need to be kept at a temperature where water was a liquid.

Of course, in the scenario you outlined the crew would probably be getting roasted alive as well; what happens to the gel packs would be the least of their worries.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2007-02-11 09:05pm

Isolder74 wrote:There was an episode when they entered a nebula where the crew had to go into hybernation to survive getting through and only the doc and 7 could stay awake during the trip.

You'd think they could do something simple like program an autopilot but nooooo.

Wasn't that an episode of Enterprise?

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2007-02-11 10:51pm

Nope, I remember watching it - was an old Voyager one. Enterprise may have copied it for all I know though.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2007-02-11 10:58pm

There was an episode of Enterprise where the entire crew had to be rendered unconscious except for Phlox and T'Pol, although T'Pol turned out to be a hallucination.

FedRebel · Post by **FedRebel** » 2007-02-12 12:45am

Drooling Iguana wrote:There was an episode of Enterprise where the entire crew had to be rendered unconscious except for Phlox and T'Pol, although T'Pol turned out to be a hallucination.

In the VOY version Seven was the one hallucinating, she was seeing some alien dude and her implants (the Borg ones) were regenerating...or whatever

That's about all I remember about it

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2007-02-12 01:02am

Darth Wong wrote:Have we ever witnessed an example of Voyager's computer doing something that the computers on the E-D couldn't do? Or doing something far more quickly than the E-D computers would have? Or operating in environments where the E-D computers could not operate? After all, it's something like a decade more advanced, in addition to being "bio-neural". If it's genuinely superior, you'd think this would have been demonstrated somewhere, in order to counteract the observed deficiencies.

I don't even know if this is sufficiently mean to ST. If it's not necessary, it's not even good enough if bioneuralwhatevers have a thousand times the processing capability of standard electronics. Integrated electronics are based on needs, not on the coolest and bestest technology available. There was a proposal in the '80s to replace the (mechanical!) fire control computers on the Iowa battleships with something more up to date. Completely disregarding arguments about reliability or cost or anything like that, the proposal was shot down because the additional processing power was completely unnecessary.

Did we ever see a situation in which the E-D had insufficient computing power to do what it needed to do?

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2007-02-12 01:20am

I think bio-neural gelpacks are really a waste. I haven't seen anything they do that could cause the ship's functions to perform better.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2007-02-12 03:41am

Howedar wrote:Did we ever see a situation in which the E-D had insufficient computing power to do what it needed to do?

In TNG Booby Trap, simulations suggested that the computer would have a hard time reacting quickly enough in order to overpower the booby trap, but that's a pretty esoteric situation.

That's the only one I can remember.

Stark wrote:Given what they say in the pilot, the entire system isn't bioneural anyway - it's just used for management or caching or something. Any bottlenecks in their conventional systems would still be there even if the bioneural stuff was much better.

Ironically, the ship was still dependent on the gel-packs such that their loss would mean the ship was FUBAR.

Isolder74 wrote:There was an episode when they entered a nebula where the crew had to go into hybernation to survive getting through and only the doc and 7 could stay awake during the trip.

You'd think they could do something simple like program an autopilot but nooooo.

There are legitimate criticisms to level against Voyager (and that episode, for that matter) but this is not one of them. Events in the episode showed that keeping Seven and the holodoc awake were not only desirable but critical to the ship making it through, as the ship started to break down about two-thirds of the way through the "nebula".

If they had just set it on autopilot and put everyone to sleep, nobody would have woken up.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2007-02-12 03:56am

Solauren wrote:The only advantage Bioneural gelpacks have over non-bioneural circuits is that when the replicator breaks down, you can eat the Gel packs...

Now I see the connection...

Bio-neural gelpacks is Soylent Green! We gotta tell people!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-02-12 10:37am

Uraniun235 wrote:There are legitimate criticisms to level against Voyager (and that episode, for that matter) but this is not one of them. Events in the episode showed that keeping Seven and the holodoc awake were not only desirable but critical to the ship making it through, as the ship started to break down about two-thirds of the way through the "nebula".

And the ship couldn't have been set to wake somebody up in the event of a serious problem?

If they had just set it on autopilot and put everyone to sleep, nobody would have woken up.

I have a problem with the notion that the holo-doctor, who is a product of the ship's computer, is somehow so much smarter than the ship's computer that he has to be kept running or else the computer would be so damned stupid that it wouldn't know what to do in the event of a serious problem. Does this not strike you as an obvious contradiction?

PS. Why are people saying that "bio-neural gelpacks" are immune to EMP? Where did they get that idea? If they've somehow miniaturized organic circuitry so that it is competitive with the solid-state stuff, then the amounts of current should be very small, otherwise the gelpack would rapidly heat up far beyond what organic tissues can withstand. This would imply delicate circuits, and the same fragility that plagues solid-state circuitry. Leaving aside the fact that both can be protected, of course.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-02-12 11:47am

And the ship couldn't have been set to wake somebody up in the event of a serious problem?

The nebula was filled with watchamacallit made-up radiation that caused cellular damage after only a few minutes of exposure. One redshirt got killed during a two-minute dip into the cloud.

I have a problem with the notion that the holo-doctor, who is a product of the ship's computer, is somehow so much smarter than the ship's computer that he has to be kept running or else the computer would be so damned stupid that it wouldn't know what to do in the event of a serious problem. Does this not strike you as an obvious contradiction?

Computers can't swap out parts, which holodoc and Seven had to do.