Versus picture I made.

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wjs7744
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Versus picture I made.

Post by wjs7744 »

So I noticed this forum and thought it might be a good place to post this picture I made. If this isn't the right sort of thing for here, not original enough etc., then I apologise.

OK, first off I would like to make it clear that I did not make the models you see here, I merely positioned them and added some SFX. The models were made by the following extremely talented people.

Star Destroyer: Ansel Hsiao
Enterprise: Ralph Schoberth

I got both models from scifi3d.com.

Here is the image, what do you think?

Image

I'm quite pleased with the phaser effect, but I think the turbolasers leave something to be desired.
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Post by Havok »

Pretty cool, but....

Image
Fixed it for you. :wink:

As for something constructive, maybe have some flashes from where the TL bolts originated from. maybe loose the one closest to the SD... it looks... off.
Image
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Post by Darth Ruinus »

wjs7744, thats a pretty cool picture. Except the last bolt, it doesnt look aligned with the other bolts, but eh, still good.

havokeff, is the Enterprise blowing up just by being near the ISD? :D
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Post by SCRawl »

Darth Ruinus wrote:wjs7744, thats a pretty cool picture. Except the last bolt, it doesnt look aligned with the other bolts, but eh, still good.

havokeff, is the Enterprise blowing up just by being near the ISD? :D
Just call it a warp core breach. I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.
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Post by Marko Dash »

can you send me the models, i can take a crack at it
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Post by Sidewinder »

Not bad.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by wjs7744 »

Thanks for the feedback.

havokeff: I know what you mean about the turbolasers. Thing is, I don't remember ever actually seeing one fire, so I'm not sure what to do about it. Can't really go wrong with a good old fashioned muzzle flash.

Marko Dash: Well, like I said I didn't make the models myself; I'm not that good just yet. Also, I don't really see the point in redistributing them since I got them from the internet in the first place, and even linked the site I got them from!

And yes, I know that the turbolasers look weird, believe it or not they are all lined up perfectly with the guns. I need a new effect for them anyway, I'm just practising with effects at the moment. Don't worry, I expect the Enterprise will be the one taking a hit next time I make one. That would kind of mean needing to slice the model, though.
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Post by wjs7744 »

Because I know you want to see it, here's a shot from one second later.
Image
It's a bit of a crappy explosion, I know; I intend to improve upon it later. Blowing up ships is harder than it looks.
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Post by Sidewinder »

Good. All we need now is a picture of the Death Star proving that lasers CAN penetrate a Starfleet vessel's navigational deflectors. Maybe have the Defiant do the trench run to get at the Death Star's Achilles heel, only to be blown away by Darth Vader's TIE fighter.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by Singular Intellect »

The first picture is the best one of the bunch, although our artist is correct and the TL's need some improvement.

And the whole "make the Enterprise blowing up" bullshit is annoying. Yes, we fucking know already, the ISD would squash the Enterprise like a bug. Now can we see the model of the ship or are we stuck with just an explosion to satisfy the dicks of the wankers here?
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Post by 1138 »

Some suggestions: The lighting looks a bit weird (the dark sides of the ISD are kind of bright). It might look better if you toned down the ambient light level a bit. The bright parts in the ISD trench are a bit over saturated, as well. Also, the Enterprise could use some motion blur to imply motion.
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Post by Darksider »

Sidewinder wrote:Good. All we need now is a picture of the Death Star proving that lasers CAN penetrate a Starfleet vessel's navigational deflectors. Maybe have the Defiant do the trench run to get at the Death Star's Achilles heel, only to be blown away by Darth Vader's TIE fighter.
Wouldn't the Defiant end up ripping off a significant portion of it's hull if it tried to fit in the DS1 trench?

Actually, that might make a cool picture.
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Post by wjs7744 »

Sidewinder wrote:Good. All we need now is a picture of the Death Star proving that lasers CAN penetrate a Starfleet vessel's navigational deflectors. Maybe have the Defiant do the trench run to get at the Death Star's Achilles heel, only to be blown away by Darth Vader's TIE fighter.
Image
Sorry, what was your question again?
Bubble Boy wrote:And the whole "make the Enterprise blowing up" bullshit is annoying. Yes, we fucking know already, the ISD would squash the Enterprise like a bug. Now can we see the model of the ship or are we stuck with just an explosion to satisfy the dicks of the wankers here?
Like I said before, these aren't my models, the entire point of the images is the special effects. If I were to simply render the models, all it would entail would be plonking one down in a scene and pressing the render button. That could only give the impression that I made the models, when I didn't. I'm not too keen on plagiarism, or whatever the hell it's called with respect to artwork.

If you really object to my choice of subjects, then I suppose I could have starfleet ships blowing each other up, but that would just be weird.

EDIT: Didn't spot this first time around.
1138 wrote:Some suggestions: The lighting looks a bit weird (the dark sides of the ISD are kind of bright). It might look better if you toned down the ambient light level a bit. The bright parts in the ISD trench are a bit over saturated, as well. Also, the Enterprise could use some motion blur to imply motion.
Thanks for the constructive criticism. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble with my phaser effects, and the only way I've found to make them work is to have the launcher stationary, hence no motion blur (Lightwave only renders motion blur while objects are moving; I don't know how to fake it for ones that aren't). About the lighting, I'm not quite sure what you mean, it looks OK to me. Are you sure it isn't an issue with your monitor; does anyone else see what he's talking about?
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Post by 1138 »

wjs7744 wrote:Unfortunately, I'm having trouble with my phaser effects, and the only way I've found to make them work is to have the launcher stationary, hence no motion blur (Lightwave only renders motion blur while objects are moving; I don't know how to fake it for ones that aren't). About the lighting, I'm not quite sure what you mean, it looks OK to me. Are you sure it isn't an issue with your monitor; does anyone else see what he's talking about?
Animate the ship to fake the motion and render out a still frame at the correct position. To keep the phaser effect looking fine, render the ships only with the phaser effect invisible and motion blur turned on. Save the frame. Next, set all objects to be Matte objects with a color of black. Turn off motion blur. Make the phaser effect visible again and render at the same frame as before. Use a bitmap editor to composite the phaser effect back on to the frame earlier. In the LW 5.6 days, there was a way to turn off motion blur for specific objects (such as the phaser effect object) but the Independent Motion Blur plugin has disappeared in later versions. However, compositing the effect is always going to give better control.

For the lighting, try going to the Global Illumination panel (for LW versions 6 to 8, no idea for version 9) and turning down the Ambient Intensity light level. LW defaults to 25%, which tends to be a bit high. Ambient lighting adds light to all faces equally and makes the shadows lighter. This has the effect of decreasing contrast, making the lighting look flat (which is the issue that I can see with your lighting). Most artists prefer to set the Ambient Intensity to zero and adjust ambient light levels themselves using carefully placed lights which gives better shadows and less flatness. You could use radiosity or ambient occlusion for even better lighting but it'll take a long time to render.
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Post by FedRebel »

Darksider wrote:
Sidewinder wrote:Good. All we need now is a picture of the Death Star proving that lasers CAN penetrate a Starfleet vessel's navigational deflectors. Maybe have the Defiant do the trench run to get at the Death Star's Achilles heel, only to be blown away by Darth Vader's TIE fighter.
Wouldn't the Defiant end up ripping off a significant portion of it's hull if it tried to fit in the DS1 trench?

Actually, that might make a cool picture.
The Feds have fighters

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Post by Lord Revan »

aren't even those rather large though (20+ m or so)
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Post by wjs7744 »

Well, first off I am using 0% ambient, and a 3-point rig. Maybe some of my lights are a little bright? Here is the first shot with only my primary light active, and here is the second (I haven't gotten round to fixing the turbolasers or the explosion yet. And no, I don't know why the explosion has gone blue either; that's what I'm going to try and find out now).

As for the fighters, 20m isn't really that big, the X-Wing is about 12m, and the trench was wide enough for Vader and his wingmen to fly three abreast, remember. Not that I can do anything about that without a model, which I haven't made yet, and really am not good enough to make yet. I'm thinking about trying one, but there aren't really any quick shortcuts with modelling like there are with effects.
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Post by 1138 »

wjs7744 wrote:Well, first off I am using 0% ambient, and a 3-point rig. Maybe some of my lights are a little bright? Here is the first shot with only my primary light active, and here is the second (I haven't gotten round to fixing the turbolasers or the explosion yet. And no, I don't know why the explosion has gone blue either; that's what I'm going to try and find out now).
OK, I now see that you aren't using Ambient (I thought you were at first, but after reading your post, I looked at some work of mine which used fill lights and the lighting reminded me of yours). In that case, you can try using Area lights for fill lights, using Ambient occlusion or using light arrays (fastest option of the three but it takes longer to setup). It'll be slow but the crevices will have proper shadowing that brings out the details. You could also paint a texture that simulates all the shadows around details; it'll look really nice and saves on render time. But it takes manual effort. I'd say try raising the intensity of your main light as a way of increasing visual contrast. But now we're really starting to get into personal aesthetics. I like my space scenes to be fairly harsh in lighting. But lighting is a lot of work and quite hard to get right.
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Post by wjs7744 »

Thanks for the suggestions. I've never used ambient occlusion, I guess I should look it up and try it out. Area lights are a bit of a problem, they often come out looking, oh I don't know, would "grainy" be the right word? I read something somewhere about 7-point rigs, I guess that's something I could check out. And as for lighting being a pain, I'll second that. It doesn't really help that I haven't seen any good tutorials, so I'm kind of making it up as I go along. Hell, I don't even know what a fill light is, I just stuck three lights in the scene and hoped for the best.
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Post by Surlethe »

wjs7744 wrote:
Sidewinder wrote:Good. All we need now is a picture of the Death Star proving that lasers CAN penetrate a Starfleet vessel's navigational deflectors. Maybe have the Defiant do the trench run to get at the Death Star's Achilles heel, only to be blown away by Darth Vader's TIE fighter.
<snip>
Sorry, what was your question again?
Right, the Defiant wouldn't even fit in the trench, now would it?
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Post by Zablorg »

Are you sure the Enterprise is that size compared to the ISD?
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Post by wjs7744 »

Surlethe wrote:Right, the Defiant wouldn't even fit in the trench, now would it?
They do say a picture is worth a thousand words, right?
Zablorg wrote:Are you sure the Enterprise is that size compared to the ISD?
Perfectly sure. The ISD is 1.6km, and the enterprise is a little shy of 700m.
Image
(Scale: 2m per pixel)

Why? Were you thinking it was too big or too small?
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Post by Lord Revan »

ISD is about 1.6m and E-E is about 700 m (680 m officially), so the startdestoyer should be about 2.3-2.4 longer then the enterprise.
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Post by fractalsponge1 »

Try using global illumination, and add a raytraced light for your key, with regular shadow-mapped lights for your fill. Vray is free, and works with many 3d packages. In general your light setup is a little flat, GI will go a long way towards fixing it.

Turbolasers have a brighter yellow core surrounded by a tapering green "sheath." I usually use a volume light for both, and just play with the opacity and brightness. Very difficult effect to get right, especially if you have very many of them - easier probably to render them out in a separate pass, and play with the contrast and brightness in photoshop rather than trying for an effect that works with one pass. Also, if they're coming off the main turrets, shouldn't the bolts be much longer? A little illumination of the surrounding mesh by turbolaser-tinted lights also helps add to the effect.
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Post by wjs7744 »

...fractalsponge? As in, the same guy who made this model to begin with? I had no idea I would run into you here! Thanks for the advice, although I don't really understand some of it.

I've been meaning to try radiosity for a while, but the increased render times have put me off somewhat. As for the lights themselves, I really don't remember what they are called, I just move them to where they look right. Or not so right, as I can't seem to really get them just right. I already use lightwave's built in raytracer, so no problems there.

The turbolaser is a bit of a problem, though, as lightwave doesn't allow volume lighting for linear or area lights for some reason. This means I have been using particles for them, which don't really work. Maybe if I use a linear light for illumination, and a really narrow spot for the bolt itself, that might work... And yeah, they look really wimpy for the heavy guns, but since I think the heavy turbolaser bolts might be bigger than the ship itself, I'm sticking with the little effect for now. Rendering out an entire frame that has been saturated by the blast would really be cheating.

And Revan, yeah those are the sizes I'm using more or less. I'm guessing you meant 1.6km for the ISD, not 1.6m.
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