Empire and Imperium (Asimov/40k)

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Murazor
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Empire and Imperium (Asimov/40k)

Post by Murazor » 2006-03-07 04:17am

It has been done before, I know. However...

An inmense wormhole has appeared, connecting the 40k and Foundationverse realities. The 40k end of the connection is located somewhere in the Segmentum Ultima, within the Imperium's borders. The Asimoverse end is in the Kalgan system . No faction in either universe has the ability to destroy the wormhole and eventually all groups are going to take notice of the giant wormhole thing that just appeared in their backdoor. What happens?

Notes:
Mentalics work within reason with 40k entities. Asimoverse humans have Tau levels of Warp presence and at first there is no Chaos equivalent in the Asimoverse Inmaterium.
Timeframe for the Trantorian Empire: 11950 G.E. (38 years before the birth of Hari Seldon).
Timeframe for the 40k factions: 40,750 (5 years after the destruction of Hive Fleet Behemoth).

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Post by Lord Zentei » 2006-03-07 02:26pm

At what point in the Foundationverse's history does this occour? The Republic? The Empire? The Dark Age?
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Post by Elheru Aran » 2006-03-07 02:35pm

Also note that while Tau have little to no Warp presence, they *can* still be affected by Chaos, all except the Elementals. Thus your Foundationverse humans are still at risk of Chaos corruption/mutation.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

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Post by Lord Zentei » 2006-03-07 02:42pm

Lord Zentei wrote:At what point in the Foundationverse's history does this occour? The Republic? The Empire? The Dark Age?
Ah, duh. Sorry, I seem to be momentarily incapable of reading. :banghead:

If this is shortly before the birth of Hari Seldon, I imagine the Empire as well as certain enterprising factions within it would be very interested in the thing as they would have vast new terrirories to conquer. Seeing as Foundation Hyperdrive is superior to Imperium warpdrive and Foundation firepower exeeds that of the Imperium, it is the Empire that would do the expanding.

The Imperial court would doubtless seek to control the wormhole (as opposed to governors and regional leaders), and would doubtless succeed. I'm envisioning a kind of "riftwar" "empire series" scenario where the war is being used for propaganda purposes while rival lords are attempting to manouver to reap the benefits.

If the Imperial court play their cards right (ha!) they might increase their influence and reputation by playing the factions against each other. More likely, this would become a vehicle for further decay, as enterprising individuals reap the benefit of the conflict.

The Imperium, would of course see these newcomers as heretics both against the God Emperor and the Machine God, though I imagine that many among the local populace of the Imperium would not mind seeng a more powerful force protecting them against the sundry threats of the galaxy.

Eventually, there would be a number of de facto Foundationverse empires in the IoM galaxy theoretically loyal to Trantor, having to face the Nids, Chaos and the Necrons.
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Post by NecronLord » 2006-03-07 02:46pm

Lord Zentei wrote:I imagine that many among the local populace of the Imperium would not mind seeng a more powerful force protecting them against the sundry threats of the galaxy.
You imagine wrong. While they're aware, in some cases, that their lives suck, the vast majority of plebs have no idea how fucked the imperium is.
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Post by Lord Zentei » 2006-03-07 02:50pm

NecronLord wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:I imagine that many among the local populace of the Imperium would not mind seeng a more powerful force protecting them against the sundry threats of the galaxy.
You imagine wrong. While they're aware, in some cases, that their lives suck, the vast majority of plebs have no idea how fucked the imperium is.
I imagine right. It was stated that should Chaos prevail in the EoT campaign, that faith in the Imperium would continue to decline, so news does seep out.

Moreover, the Empire can bring news that would otherwise be denied, and they can raise the standard of living for conquered populations.
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Post by Jalinth » 2006-03-07 02:52pm

Lord Zentei wrote:At what point in the Foundationverse's history does this occour? The Republic? The Empire? The Dark Age?
Roughly about 90 years before the Foundation is created from my memory (38 years before Seldon was born and I think he was around 60 or so when he initially set-up the Foundation and exiled). Likely before the reign of Cleon I.

The Empire is screwed. It can't even repair much of the existing equipment based on what is mentioned in the Foundation books, and the Empire is very unstable - coups and attempted coups are common place. It has very limited ability to replace ships, and even these are substandard.

Within a century, bits of the Empire just drift away with absolutely no attempt to stop them. Most generals aren't that talented (dilettantes and court generals are prevalent), and those that are tend to reach for the throne unless a strong Emperor exists (the whole Bel saga pretty much backed this up).

So unless the 40K verse is this badly hamstrung, we don't have much of a fight. Mere attritional warfare will win.

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Post by Lord Zentei » 2006-03-07 02:53pm

Jalinth wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:At what point in the Foundationverse's history does this occour? The Republic? The Empire? The Dark Age?
Roughly about 90 years before the Foundation is created from my memory (38 years before Seldon was born and I think he was around 60 or so when he initially set-up the Foundation and exiled). Likely before the reign of Cleon I.
Yah, I already acnowledged my momentary illiteracy earlier. :P
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Post by NecronLord » 2006-03-07 03:06pm

Lord Zentei wrote:that faith in the Imperium would continue to decline,
Because Chaos forces were everywhere. The average person knows that there are bad guys out there, they've heard of orks, even tyranids in some places, these days, and they know that Space Marines and Guardsmen fight them. That's it.
so news does seep out.
See Lord of the Night, where the idea of such a thing as a Chaos Marine is unthinkable to the hivers.
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Post by Lord Zentei » 2006-03-07 03:15pm

NecronLord wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:that faith in the Imperium would continue to decline,
Because Chaos forces were everywhere. The average person knows that there are bad guys out there, they've heard of orks, even tyranids in some places, these days, and they know that Space Marines and Guardsmen fight them. That's it.
so news does seep out.
See Lord of the Night, where the idea of such a thing as a Chaos Marine is unthinkable to the hivers.
I did in fact not have the hivers in mind when I wrote that, you know.
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Post by NecronLord » 2006-03-07 03:31pm

Lord Zentei wrote:I did in fact not have the hivers in mind when I wrote that, you know.
The average citizens of agri-worlds and civilised worlds are just as ignorant. Hives are the err, hives of commerce and information in the Imperium. The imperium's ideas of news are based around 'knowledge is power, guard it well' remember. Most people know of orks, and sporadic bits of information about the other races. They certainly have no idea how screwed the Imperium is.
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Post by Lord Zentei » 2006-03-07 03:34pm

NecronLord wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:I did in fact not have the hivers in mind when I wrote that, you know.
The average citizens of agri-worlds and civilised worlds are just as ignorant. Hives are the err, hives of commerce and information in the Imperium. The imperium's ideas of news are based around 'knowledge is power, guard it well' remember. Most people know of orks, and sporadic bits of information about the other races. They certainly have no idea how screwed the Imperium is.
I'd argue that many in civilized worlds are not quite as ignorant as all that, but anyway, it is rather moot: the higher ups know and many of these will be willing to save their asses. Moreover, the Empire will be able to control the flow of information as they advance.
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Post by NecronLord » 2006-03-07 03:39pm

Lord Zentei wrote:I'd argue that many in civilized worlds are not quite as ignorant as all that,
You would be wrong. First remember that all interstellar comms are restricted to astropaths. That severely limits the information a common man can get hold of. Just as an example, in Nightbringer, the governor of Pavonis doesn't even know of Exterminatus.
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Post by Lord Zentei » 2006-03-07 03:42pm

NecronLord wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:I'd argue that many in civilized worlds are not quite as ignorant as all that,
You would be wrong. First remember that all interstellar comms are restricted to astropaths. That severely limits the information a common man can get hold of. Just as an example, in Nightbringer, the governor of Pavonis doesn't even know of Exterminatus.
Oh, please. Exterminatus is the weapon of the Inquisition, there is quite a difference between that and the knowledge of the Imperium being beset by enemies. Just to name a couple of critical areas: the Armageddon sector, and the Cadian sector. Bit hard to hide these things in such regions, right?

Though certainly there are large regions that are quite ignorant.. hell, there are worlds where the Imperium is but a distant name.
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Post by Base Delta Zero » 2006-03-07 03:44pm

Wouldn't knowing how bad the Imperium is be kind of irrelevant if someone offered a better alternative - I mean, even if they didn't think the Imperium was that bad, wouldn't things getting better be a good hint? Of course, the Foundationverse Empire might be just as bad and I could be talking out my ass (likely).
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Post by NecronLord » 2006-03-07 04:02pm

Lord Zentei wrote:Oh, please. Exterminatus is the weapon of the Inquisition,
Incorrect. The High Lords of Terra*, Warmasters and Space Marines (captains, even) are authorised to deploy it.
there is quite a difference between that and the knowledge of the Imperium being beset by enemies.
No one is denying that they know enemies are out there. But the vast vast majority of people have no clue that the Imperium is near breaking point.

*It used to be that they had to declare it, but as with the ability to planet destroy, the commonality of exterminatus has increased over the years of publishing.
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Post by Lord Zentei » 2006-03-07 04:05pm

NecronLord wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:Oh, please. Exterminatus is the weapon of the Inquisition,
Incorrect. The High Lords of Terra*, Warmasters and Space Marines (captains, even) are authorised to deploy it.
And thank you for picking nits, and avoiding the point. :roll:
NecronLord wrote:
there is quite a difference between that and the knowledge of the Imperium being beset by enemies.
No one is denying that they know enemies are out there. But the vast vast majority of people have no clue that the Imperium is near breaking point.
As long as the IoM controls the flow of information. And I pointed out wartorn areas and the uppercrust's sense of self preservation.
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Post by NecronLord » 2006-03-07 04:05pm

Base Delta Zero wrote:Wouldn't knowing how bad the Imperium is be kind of irrelevant if someone offered a better alternative - I mean, even if they didn't think the Imperium was that bad, wouldn't things getting better be a good hint?
And betray the God Emperor's holy empire? That's a big step for a lot of people. And there will be... trouble, if they destroy the Emperor.
Of course, the Foundationverse Empire might be just as bad and I could be talking out my ass (likely).
The Foundationverse empire isn't exactly stable. It is, at this time, near collapse, even without an external threat. And we have no idea how it would handle the mutations, or psykers, for example.
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Post by NecronLord » 2006-03-07 04:07pm

Lord Zentei wrote:As long as the IoM controls the flow of information.
I do not dispute that an invading force could disseminate its own information. I am calling you on the idea that the average guy would sell out his god-emperor for a more powerful military, given that he has no idea how bad things really are.
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Post by Lord Zentei » 2006-03-07 04:11pm

NecronLord wrote:
Base Delta Zero wrote:Wouldn't knowing how bad the Imperium is be kind of irrelevant if someone offered a better alternative - I mean, even if they didn't think the Imperium was that bad, wouldn't things getting better be a good hint?
And betray the God Emperor's holy empire? That's a big step for a lot of people. And there will be... trouble, if they destroy the Emperor.
"You may worship as you please as long as you pledge yourselves to the Greater Good".

If it works for the Tau...
NecronLord wrote:
Of course, the Foundationverse Empire might be just as bad and I could be talking out my ass (likely).
The Foundationverse empire isn't exactly stable. It is, at this time, near collapse, even without an external threat. And we have no idea how it would handle the mutations, or psykers, for example.
Given the disparity in FTL and firepower, even the local warlords have more power than the IoM. Hence my point that the situation would end up as several Foundationverse mini empires across the MW. As for their ability to figure out that "psykers, mutants = bad"... some of those empires may well be at risk at become Chaotic, no doubt.
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Post by Lord Zentei » 2006-03-07 04:15pm

NecronLord wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:As long as the IoM controls the flow of information.
I do not dispute that an invading force could disseminate its own information. I am calling you on the idea that the average guy would sell out his god-emperor for a more powerful military, given that he has no idea how bad things really are.
With a little brains, the Empire would knock down the Imperial Navy, and allow the Imperial planets to stew a little before coming to the rescue. Even if the Imperials reject the initial overtures of the Empire and manage to mount a successful resistance, they will be defenceless after that, proceed as above.

Also, there is the point I made about the successful assimilation of the Imperials by the Tau: allow freedom of religion. That way, they can convince themselves that they are not truly betaying the Emperor as much as otherwise.
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Post by NecronLord » 2006-03-07 04:18pm

Lord Zentei wrote:"You may worship as you please as long as you pledge yourselves to the Greater Good".

If it works for the Tau...
It doesn't work for them. They have one planet, possibly a few, of gue'vesa, despite having preached at all the worlds around, even those guys had to be left behind by the Democles Gulf crusade before defecting. It's not that successful. Certainly the fact that they're humans is helpful, but they're not going to defect enmasse until they've been occupied, and that's going to require blood unless you've got culture level ground abilities.

Given the disparity in FTL and firepower, even the local warlords have more power than the IoM.
Numbers please. Are you aware that now, 40K's gotten so wanked that even a space marine strike cruiser can blast a planet apart entirely(DoW:A)? As I understand it, support for Foundationverse planet-destruction is often dismissed as hyperbole in debate against SW.
Hence my point that the situation would end up as several Foundationverse mini empires across the MW. As for their ability to figure out that "psykers, mutants = bad"... some of those empires may well be at risk at become Chaotic, no doubt.
And if they've killed the Emperor, which would be something most invading forces would do (certainly trying to occupy Terra, rather than blast it, would be painful) then every psyker is going to be a serious threat of unleashing demonic hordes.
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Post by Gunhead » 2006-03-07 04:19pm

The average guy would sell out god emperor if given a bigger house/power/wealth/chicks and/or all of these. Unless we are talking about a true blooded fanatic. The joe average fears what the IOM might do to him if he doesn't at least appear to believe in the official dogma. If the fear of retribution is gone, they'll go with the highest bidder.

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Post by NecronLord » 2006-03-07 04:22pm

Gunhead wrote:The average guy would sell out god emperor if given a bigger house/power/wealth/chicks and/or all of these. Unless we are talking about a true blooded fanatic. The joe average fears what the IOM might do to him if he doesn't at least appear to believe in the official dogma. If the fear of retribution is gone, they'll go with the highest bidder.

-Gunhead
The Imperium has spent ten millennia, twice as long as all our recorded history, attempting to induce maximum fanaticism. It's like Al-Quaeda's dream Caliphate, only without burquas. How many of your born-again Christians would sell out God's Kingdom?
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Post by Gunhead » 2006-03-07 04:29pm

In your own words. Attempting. If it was working, there'd be little to be feared from chaos. Because if it ain't peoples faith that protects them then what does?.
Moreover, people in IOM will do as they are told by their superiors. Most people who are in power are more interested in keeping their power than praising the emperor. So you'd really need to get relatively low number people into your pocket and the rest will follow.

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