Manticore vs. The Tau

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Falkenhayn
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Manticore vs. The Tau

Post by Falkenhayn » 2005-07-26 03:44pm

The Star Kingdom of Manticore from Weberverse vs the Tau Empire of 40k post last year's Eye of Terror. The Star Kingdom has the ships as listed in the back of The Short Victorious War, so:
  • SD: 188
    DN:121
    BC:199
    CA:333
    CL:295
    DD:485
The Tau also have their full resources. They are placed two light months of eachother. There are no outside concerns from the IoM, Haven or anything else. Both sides seek to capture population and industrial centers intact and planetary ecosystems and economies largely viable, but otherwise anything goes. Who wins?

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Post by SirNitram » 2005-07-26 04:10pm

Isn't the Tau Empire a few dozen lightyears across? Wouldn't this make the Manticore being two light -months- away be nearly inside it?
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die » 2005-07-26 04:24pm

I think, i mean obviously he means two light-months from tehir borders.

As much as i like the Tau i know next to nothing about their weapons or firepower. I can imagine they have superior range to teh IoM as they usually do anyway, IIRC. I know they used up-scaled railcannons and ion cannons on their ships, but no fighters. Maybe no shields either.

Anyway, i dont know if any indications of their firepower exist. The fact they can fight against the IoM on some level says low gigatons would be the minimum probably, as the IoM has SW yield weapons (yes less rate-of-fire, but comperable yields). Hmmm...they must have shileds then, or they'd be slagged in seconds.

Thats all i know or can guess.
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Post by HRogge » 2005-07-26 06:24pm

I think this fight is a little bit unfair... the star kingdom of Manticore is a single system at this time, they have just built the first generation of FTL recon drones and they have missile pods, but no Ghostrider missiles, no Shrike/Ferret LACS and no pod superdreadnoughts...

how large is the Tau fleet ? What is the typical range of an IoM space combat and what's their acceleration capabilities ?
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Re: Manticore vs. The Tau

Post by The Dark » 2005-07-26 06:51pm

Falkenhayn wrote:
  • SD: 188
    DN:121
    BC:199
    CA:333
    CL:295
    DD:485
To reply to HRogge's post, the firepower becomes much higher post-First Havenite War, but the numbers aren't that much greater in 1920 PD:
  • SD(P):75
    SD: 225
    DN(P): 0
    DN: 6
    CLAC: 42
    BC(P): 6
    BC (large): 1
    BC: 200
    CA (large): 3
    CA: 145
    CL: 277
    DD: 418
In fact, they've actually shrunk slightly, although admittedly due to the High Ridge Government's anti-military stance. They have gone from a fairly even SD/DN split to almost entirely SDs, with only a single (downsized) squadron of dreadnoughts remaining. If this was the Alliance it'd be different, since another 157 SD(P), 30 CLAC, and 51 BC(P) would add serious throw weight. Overall, the Manty combat ability is much higher in 1920 than it was in SVW, although the fleets they can mass would be smaller in number of hulls.
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Post by Balrog » 2005-07-26 06:57pm

From what little I know of the Tau, their primary weapons are spinal railguns, smart torpedos and weapons batteries. Range is about the same as most other 40k ships, which if 1cm=1000m as I've heard before means they usually fight within tens of thousands of km (although in the BFG manual it cites 75,000 leagues (or ~400,000km) as being just out of range of most weapons systems except Imperial torpedos, and Tau torpedos are superior IIRC)
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Post by HRogge » 2005-07-26 07:11pm

Balrog wrote:From what little I know of the Tau, their primary weapons are spinal railguns, smart torpedos and weapons batteries. Range is about the same as most other 40k ships, which if 1cm=1000m as I've heard before means they usually fight within tens of thousands of km (although in the BFG manual it cites 75,000 leagues (or ~400,000km) as being just out of range of most weapons systems except Imperial torpedos, and Tau torpedos are superior IIRC)
So it will depend on the acceleration capabilities of both sides... the higher range you described ( 400K for anything except torpedos ) is similar to the typical beam weapon range of HH ships...

Tau railguns will be useless against HH ships, smart torpedos only usefull if they can get through the front/aft hole in the wedge/sidewall.

Hmm... what would the Tau say about the RMS energy torpedos ( nearly lightspeed plasma weapons ) ?
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Post by Balrog » 2005-07-26 07:30pm

Well I have no clue on anything about HH ships except having to get past some funky-uber-wank gravity shields or somesuch :D But Tau torpedos, unlike their Imperial/Chaos/ect. counterparts, are able to maneuver (hence "smart" torpedos)
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Post by Tasoth » 2005-07-26 07:37pm

IIRC, Tau do have fighters, the Barracuda. They're supposed to be able to outmanuever IoM fighters, with Navy pilots being more experienced, hence levelling the field.
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Post by Nephtys » 2005-07-26 09:36pm

Balrog wrote:Well I have no clue on anything about HH ships except having to get past some funky-uber-wank gravity shields or somesuch :D But Tau torpedos, unlike their Imperial/Chaos/ect. counterparts, are able to maneuver (hence "smart" torpedos)
It's called the impeller wedge, and it's their means of propulsion. Anyway, HHverse ships move at hundreds of Gees acceleration, and consider a light-minute reasonable combat range. Against an opponent that uses unguided projectiles as a weapon (railguns), that's asking for a slaughter. Maneuvering torpedoes is in no way anything to be proud of if we're talking a fight in space. :P

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Post by SirNitram » 2005-07-26 09:48pm

Nephtys wrote:
Balrog wrote:Well I have no clue on anything about HH ships except having to get past some funky-uber-wank gravity shields or somesuch :D But Tau torpedos, unlike their Imperial/Chaos/ect. counterparts, are able to maneuver (hence "smart" torpedos)
It's called the impeller wedge, and it's their means of propulsion. Anyway, HHverse ships move at hundreds of Gees acceleration, and consider a light-minute reasonable combat range. Against an opponent that uses unguided projectiles as a weapon (railguns), that's asking for a slaughter. Maneuvering torpedoes is in no way anything to be proud of if we're talking a fight in space. :P
Except that maneuvering torpedos are the primary method of combat in HHverse, and a Tau ship will, much like in the previous Imperial thread, be much 'quieter' to the sensors of the opposition. Since it's a known they can fit AI on objects that are truly tiny(Their Gun Drones), the AI of the torpedo will be quite nice and capable of evading those huge gravitational anoms once the Tau realize they can't hammer through.

The momentum-transfer mentioned in the Imperial thread also applies, and more directly, as railguns are KE weapons. It's not a walk over, especially with the huge resource advantage the Tau Empire has.
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Post by Ford Prefect » 2005-07-26 09:51pm

What about ground combat in the Honourverse? What do they normally get up to when it comes to invading a planet?
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-07-26 09:58pm

Ford Prefect wrote:What about ground combat in the Honourverse? What do they normally get up to when it comes to invading a planet?
HH has some nice toys, gravity launched explosive darts are their primary small arm (roughly bolter equivalent IIRC). They have good armor and power armor, IIRC. But the Tau have numbers as well as their high tech gear, so I think the bluees take it on the ground.
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Post by Nephtys » 2005-07-26 10:07pm

Ground combat is generally a non-issue, since any planet with defenses tough enough to need a ground invasion will be bombarded by pinpoint kinetic strikes. HH Mass-planet bombardment is outlawed by treaty, but they can do it if need be...

Otherwise, their troops include unarmored infantry with high-velocity 'pulsar' guns as standard, which fire accelerated AP rounds at thousands of rounds per second. There's also flechette guns, which are shotguns basically. Their armored troops use large plasma weapons, and minigun versions of the pulsars.

Anyway to Nitram, I can't see 'smart' torps being any better than HHverse missiles. It doesn't matter how advanced the missile guidance is after it reaches the level of basic competency. The wedge can sustain high-velocity hits from contact missiles without notable worry, so I don't see how a railgun can be any more effective than a missile that has similar or better velocities and mass.

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-07-26 10:11pm

Nephtys wrote:Ground combat is generally a non-issue, since any planet with defenses tough enough to need a ground invasion will be bombarded by pinpoint kinetic strikes. HH Mass-planet bombardment is outlawed by treaty, but they can do it if need be...
Planetary bombardment isn't outlawed in 40K and void shields combined with hardened defences (like burying gigaton strength defence laser silos in mountains), makes this not an easy trick.

How fast is Honourverse FTL?
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Post by SirNitram » 2005-07-26 10:13pm

Nephtys wrote:Ground combat is generally a non-issue, since any planet with defenses tough enough to need a ground invasion will be bombarded by pinpoint kinetic strikes. HH Mass-planet bombardment is outlawed by treaty, but they can do it if need be...

Otherwise, their troops include unarmored infantry with high-velocity 'pulsar' guns as standard, which fire accelerated AP rounds at thousands of rounds per second. There's also flechette guns, which are shotguns basically. Their armored troops use large plasma weapons, and minigun versions of the pulsars.

Anyway to Nitram, I can't see 'smart' torps being any better than HHverse missiles. It doesn't matter how advanced the missile guidance is after it reaches the level of basic competency. The wedge can sustain high-velocity hits from contact missiles without notable worry, so I don't see how a railgun can be any more effective than a missile that has similar or better velocities and mass.
Except it doesn't need to be uber-godly; it just has to know avoid the big honking grav anoms.

And I was specifically speaking of sidewalls.

Anyway, assuming even rough parity, the Tau will roll this by superior numbers.
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-07-26 10:46pm

I don't like saying this, but Impeller wankage probably gives Manticore a big advantage. The Tau can counter this with their superior numbers and by laying waste to Manticore's industrial base.
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Post by Xon » 2005-07-27 12:03am

Imperial Overlord wrote: Planetary bombardment isn't outlawed in 40K and void shields combined with hardened defences (like burying gigaton strength defence laser silos in mountains), makes this not an easy trick.
Ram a Wedge-based man portable missile into it. Those make for great equalizers in ground combat.
How fast is Honourverse FTL?
Over sustained distances, faster that Startrek.


What numbers do the Tau have? Do they exit thier FTL at the edge of the solar system and then spend weeks getting to the inner-system planets like other factions in 40k?

Cos if they do, that easily allows Honorverse ships a massive defensive advantage.
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-07-27 12:12am

ggs wrote:
Imperial Overlord wrote: Planetary bombardment isn't outlawed in 40K and void shields combined with hardened defences (like burying gigaton strength defence laser silos in mountains), makes this not an easy trick.
Ram a Wedge-based man portable missile into it. Those make for great equalizers in ground combat.
Those are anti-starship defences I'm talking about. You want to attack a mountain side with a man portable missle, you have to get on the ground and fight the Tau army.
How fast is Honourverse FTL?
Over sustained distances, faster that Startrek.
Hard to compare then without better numbers.
What numbers do the Tau have? Do they exit thier FTL at the edge of the solar system and then spend weeks getting to the inner-system planets like other factions in 40k?

Cos if they do, that easily allows Honorverse ships a massive defensive advantage.
40K ships don't have to leave systems to go to warp and it takes hours or days at the most to leave most systems. They only need to exit systems to reach entry points for the better warp routes.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-07-27 12:12am

What numbers do the Tau have? Do they exit thier FTL at the edge of the solar system and then spend weeks getting to the inner-system planets like other factions in 40k?
Exiting the Warp is pretty random; it simply happens wherever the Navigator forsees as safest or most viable.

That said, the Tau, being psychically inert, do not really travel through the Warp as such (where they would quite literally be eaten alive), instead skirting along the edges so to speak. While much slower, this would imply greater accuracy and less randomness in terms of both accuracy and Warp-based oddities (such as arriving at one's destination before actually embarking).
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-07-27 12:15am

40K ships can cross the galaxy in a year. The Tau are signifigantly slower, but even being an order of magnitude slower (they may be faster than that or even slowerr, I'm not really up on the bluees) that is a lot faster than Trek.
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Post by The Dark » 2005-07-27 12:21am

Honorverse FTL depends somewhat on the particular hyperspace flow they're in, but generally a warship can reach 3000 times the speed of light. If they ever reach the Iota band that'll go up to 3600c.
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-07-27 12:24am

The Dark wrote:Honorverse FTL depends somewhat on the particular hyperspace flow they're in, but generally a warship can reach 3000 times the speed of light. If they ever reach the Iota band that'll go up to 3600c.
So roughly 1/30th the speed of IoM FTL going against the Tau FTL, which is known to be slower than the IoM.
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Post by Jalinth » 2005-07-27 01:05am

Imperial Overlord wrote:
So roughly 1/30th the speed of IoM FTL going against the Tau FTL, which is known to be slower than the IoM.
But having precise FTL is a pretty large advantage given the "sloppiness" of 40K systems.

As to ground combat, the Honorverse doesn't really have much of it. The ability to drop large rocks (or missiles) on hostile targets pretty much makes ground combat either special forces or more paramilitary (suppressing civil insurrections) work.

Major problem with moving Manticore is that without the wormhole junction, their economy goes in the toilet. They rapidly go bankrupt since they don't have an empire to support them and the merchant marine is now more than slightly useful (peaceful trading is not a 40K tradition from everything I've read).

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-07-27 01:16am

Actually, there is a long history of trading in 40K. A whole branch of the navy is involved in it. But trade between humans and non-humans is restricted and only Rogue Traders may legally do it.
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