A wormhole would break the stalemate...(Drakon question)

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A wormhole would break the stalemate...(Drakon question)

Post by Junghalli »

Drakon wrote:A functioning macrocosmic molehole would break the long stalemate. The Final War might well turn out to be less final than they'd [the Samothracians] thought.
Allright, the Samothracians have instant FTL via wormholes which can be mounted on ships or transport individual people. The Draka have relativistic ships. WTF, how is this a stalemate? The Draka should be getting beaten like redheaded stepchildren.
The Samothracians have an obscene strategic advantage. They can hit a Draka world with overwhelming force, burninate the colony, and then have decades to dig in and turn it into a fucking fortress before the Snakes even realize anything happened!They could burn every Draka colony to a lifeless cinder and the Snakes would never even realize anything was happening before the Alliance fleet appeared in their sky. They could pre-emptively put garrisons on every habitable world in range of a Draka system and turn them all to productive Alliance colonies by the time the Draka could respond. And when they did respond, unlike the Draks, they can send reinforcements to threatened systems. Hell, why even bother with a spacebourne attack? The wormholes can teleport man-sized objects to specific regions of the surface of planets. So open a wormhole into downtown Archona, chuck in a nuclear warhead with the timer ticking down the last five seconds, and be sure to close the door behind you. Repeat a couple of thousand times and Earth is a lifeless rock and the Draka are effectively extinct as a galactic power.
Anybody have any explanations for the Alliance's failure to capitalize on this obscene advantage? Other than the obvious one that this is buisness as usual in Sterling's little world. :roll:
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Post by SirNitram »

Magic plot shields affect everything the Draka do.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

Never read the books, so i may be completely wrong here. But it's possible they might not HAVE the firepower to do so. Maybe they had a vast strategic speed advantage but, in terms of firepower, were vastly outclassed?

Again i never read the stories, just a theory based on what you said.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Never read the books, so i may be completely wrong here. But it's possible they might not HAVE the firepower to do so. Maybe they had a vast strategic speed advantage but, in terms of firepower, were vastly outclassed?

Again i never read the stories, just a theory based on what you said.
Decades of time makes up for that.
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Post by Junghalli »

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Never read the books, so i may be completely wrong here. But it's possible they might not HAVE the firepower to do so. Maybe they had a vast strategic speed advantage but, in terms of firepower, were vastly outclassed?
Well, the Alliance is all descended from a single relativistic ship that escaped at the end of the Final War and made it to Alpha Centauri, whereas the Draka had the resources of all of Earth (albeit after a nuclear war), so the Draka's resource base is probably a lot bigger.
Still, since they have no FTL they can't use those resources to defend their colonies. The Alliance could go exterminatus on world after world and the Dominate would be all of one system before they even realized what happened. Even if they can't crack Earth they can contain them pretty effectively.
And moleholes can be opened directly to the surface of planets. Open a wormhole into downtown Archona, chuck through a nuke with timer winding down, close it behind you. Rinse and repeat until every major Draka population center in the galaxy is a smoking radioactive crater.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

The Draka are playing catch up with FTL and are close behind. The Draka have a leg up with resources so they have more stuff, including a rich and powerful home system.. The Samothracians roll the dice and decide to hit the Sol System with everything they've got. The Draka luck out (again) by maintaining a large fleet and so they don't get wiped, although the casualties are massive. They have their own FTL up and running so the Samothracians can no longer just curb stomp the colonies at will.
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Imperial Overlord wrote:The Draka are playing catch up with FTL and are close behind. The Draka have a leg up with resources so they have more stuff, including a rich and powerful home system.. The Samothracians roll the dice and decide to hit the Sol System with everything they've got. The Draka luck out (again) by maintaining a large fleet and so they don't get wiped, although the casualties are massive. They have their own FTL up and running so the Samothracians can no longer just curb stomp the colonies at will.
That is bullshit and badly written.

It reads as the same "OMG teh Draka are evul and AWESUM!!!!" that makes me revile everything about Stirling's writing. Prior to reading this thread, I had thought that Stirling's most blatantly retarded bullshit was when he had the Draka conquer and pacify China in twenty years. But this now takes the cake.

If you want a proper example of what the FTL advantage does in space warfare, read some Niven. There is simply no way to overcome an enemy who can move even a few times the speed of light when you're stuck to relativistic velocities; he will pick the circumstances of engagement and he will annihlate your fleet and then hit your homeworlds before the light-speed messages and images of the battle even reach you, and his tactical advantages are doubled by relativity effects (time dilation messes you up, but not him). When you're stuck at relativistic velocities and your enemy has the ability to instantly wormhole his way to anywhere he wants to go, there aren't even words to express how fucked you are. You will not even make it to the bathroom, that's how fast you lose the war.

Stirling is an asshat.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Of course it's junk. It's a thin excuse for the Draka not to get brutally ass raped by the Samothracians which doesn't stand up to any real scruitiny.

You're right about Niven.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

One could presume (and this is perhaps a thin excuse, i know it sounds like one) that the firepower differnce is so vast (like GE vs Narn Republic vast) that the Drakas are or would be practically immune to any attack from the Saothracians.

This is, of course, unlikely and just a guess.
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Post by Raxmei »

The Draka being close behind makes it all the more important that Samothrace strike immediately while they still have the advantage. Once the Draka gain the ability to strike they are certain to use it, and they're big enough to trade planets for victory. The good guys still have time to destroy Earth with no chance of retaliation, and they're delaying while the enemy narrows the gap.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

18-Till-I-Die wrote:One could presume (and this is perhaps a thin excuse, i know it sounds like one) that the firepower differnce is so vast (like GE vs Narn Republic vast) that the Drakas are or would be practically immune to any attack from the Saothracians.

This is, of course, unlikely and just a guess.
No, the Samothracians inflict heavy losses on their attack on the Sol System. The Draka would've been smoked if they hadn't maintained extensive defences.
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Post by Xon »

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Never read the books, so i may be completely wrong here. But it's possible they might not HAVE the firepower to do so. Maybe they had a vast strategic speed advantage but, in terms of firepower, were vastly outclassed?

Again i never read the stories, just a theory based on what you said.
It is rather simply for any spacebased race to KO a planet. Asteriod, meet planet. At high velocities.
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Post by Junghalli »

Raxmei wrote:The Draka being close behind makes it all the more important that Samothrace strike immediately while they still have the advantage. Once the Draka gain the ability to strike they are certain to use it, and they're big enough to trade planets for victory. The good guys still have time to destroy Earth with no chance of retaliation, and they're delaying while the enemy narrows the gap.
This is a consistent pattern in this universe. When the Draka have the advantage they attack and go for the jugular. When the Alliance has the advantage they sit on their hands and do nothing. The Draka suffer from reverse-Borgism: the only way they can possibly be the apocalyptic threat Stirling wanted them to be is by the utter incompetence of their enemies.
This pisses me off. The Samothracians have had their fucking civilization wiped out from under them because of this. They've had their country conquered, everything they knew and love destroyed, the entire population of Earth killed, enslaved, or given the Noise Marine treatment, and their descendants genetically programmed to be the Draka's willing bitches. Meanwhile they had go run and hide on some fucking jungle world four light years away and rebuild human civilization from scratch. Now that the beast is at their mercy they don't have the sense or the balls to strike, even though they know that the second the Draka develop FTL they can look forward to the exact same fate. You'd think they'd bloody well have learned their lesson the first time around. :roll:
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Shows what happens when character shields are on the wrong end of the boot :roll:
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

I too find it utterly unrealistic for someone with a vastly superior strategic advantage to squander it so badly. Which is why i presumed they didnt. I guess they're just morons...too bad for them, eh?
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Post by consequences »

Okay, its necromancy, but for a good cause, honest.

The molehole at the stage described in Drakon was limited to the speed of light, and not usable within a star system if you want what you are sending to end up in the same universe. It also seemed to be limited to fixed installations, at least for sending something the size of a ship through.The scene when the Samothracian ship drops of Lafarge has them saying that they need to make a run back to the molehole to Alpha Centauri. Why they couldn't do a stealthier run back to the molehole, so as not to scream out "We're here, and our tactics still suck!!!!" to the Draka is beyond me. Unless their logic is so poor that they consider a single potential Drakensis dropped off in an unknown timeline a greater threat than a thriving Drankensis civilisation.

Now it was supposed to have a very funky effect, IIRC, that if you travel back through a molehole, then you go back in time the distance traveled. Which doesn't make an incredible amount of sense, as you could send a molehole to a destination, then send one back, and have a ship make a dozen trips through, then backtrack and deliver tech data from fifty years downstream, and thoroughly screw causality. This would incidentally be a far more powerful tool than mere instant ftl. Granted, this was only theoretical at the time, but it represented the Draka's best guess as to the likely result.

Given the fact that only three years passed before the initial accident and the offstage pathetic Samothracian attack, it would certainly seem that they were right, unless the Samothracians had been able to tweak for additional speed somehow, or had already had an attack inbound.
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Post by xammer99 »

While I'm not a huge fan of Stirlings, there are a few things...

a. As was pointed out, the Samothracians couldn't open a molehole inside a gravity well because of the side slip thing. Thus, no opening moleholes and popping out nukes.

b. They had to do it from beyond the Oort Cloud, so any large attack will give quite a large amount of notice that its coming. So no hurling asteroids around and no sneaking in a fleet.

c. They never once demonstrated any sort of terribly high acceleration vessels, so the ships coming through to attack would be spotted relatively quickly given the large numbers needed to assault a fortified system.

d. The Draka keeping defenses in place (the weakest bit from my pov) made sorta sense in a few lights. First, they were wierdly paranoid. Gwen designed a plague to wipe out all life on the planet when she found Lafarge was there just incase he got lucky. They were engineered to be protective and keeping something of a defense force around goes along that mindset. They were immortal and had nothing better to do, so why not? It'll provide some jobs for the low rung guys and the folks on the "outs" for a few centuries. Yeah, kinda thin but only reason i can come up with it.

So, while it can be made that Stirling was bein a tool to preserve his bad guys for another book I can see how it worked out and don't consider it that bad. Certainly not as bad as others (Turtledove) and still enjoyable.
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Post by Junghalli »

xammer99 wrote:d. The Draka keeping defenses in place (the weakest bit from my pov) made sorta sense in a few lights. First, they were wierdly paranoid. Gwen designed a plague to wipe out all life on the planet when she found Lafarge was there just incase he got lucky. They were engineered to be protective and keeping something of a defense force around goes along that mindset. They were immortal and had nothing better to do, so why not? It'll provide some jobs for the low rung guys and the folks on the "outs" for a few centuries. Yeah, kinda thin but only reason i can come up with it.
What about containment? It's not like the Draka's newly founded colonies would be so well protected. The Alliance just stood by while they enslaved a sapient species, when they definitely had the power to garrison the planet and have a positively hot welcome waiting for the slavers when their slow relativistic ship showed up.
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Post by xammer99 »

Junghalli wrote: What about containment? It's not like the Draka's newly founded colonies would be so well protected. The Alliance just stood by while they enslaved a sapient species, when they definitely had the power to garrison the planet and have a positively hot welcome waiting for the slavers when their slow relativistic ship showed up.
It never said either way that the Samothracians did or did not smash the Snake colonies. But there are a couple of good reasons not to do it. First, they are after the big enchilada, Sol. They want home back first and foremost and it doesn't serve any purpose to kill off the colonies first. They are small and relatively defenseless, why expend the resources? Remember, it stated pretty explicitly that Samothrace was not densely populated at all so while they had a big technological edge they didn't have unlimited resources. So they had to make their blow count and the best place to direct that is Sol. Then once that is done they can mop up the colonies at their leisure over the course of a few decades.

Further, why telegraph your blows? Its going to take quite a bit of time to kill off all those colonies and the older ones won't die off fast or easy. If it takes to long then word could get back to Sol about what is happening and that could lead to even MORE defenses at Earth. This is a kinda obvious one given that it explicitly states that espionage between Sol & Samothrace were still going on and that is how the Snakes got the FTL ideas in the first place.

So if your strategic goal is the elimination of the Draka from the universe, you hit'em in the bread basket first and exterminate their home. Then you mob up the outposts.

Yet another reason for doin it this way is they were under some time constraints w/ the Draka researching FTL that ment they had the possibility of escape to other universes. Remember the book commented that the first Samothracians to experiment got sent to another universe and could only be found by building a beacon to be found (Same as Gwen did). So a Domination w/ the ability to flee to other universes, the entire technological memory of their species in those handy dandy implants, and immortality even one snake getting away means they will very likely be back, eventually.

So again, smash the snakes flat at home first, where their highest capacities for R&D and industrial base is at. It might cost you damn near all of your navy to do it, but if you can crack that nut then you can take care of the rest later.

Oh, Finally, it never said that the Samothracians weren't killing off the colony ships or even really discussed it from the point of view of a Samothracian. Gwen did, but her knowlege would have been a decade or two old since the messages might not have made it back home. *shrug* But then again...why potentially telegraph it? Just kill off Sol first then mop up the rest since they don't have near the capacity.
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Post by consequences »

But if the Samothracians use their moleholes to get their own colonies into position all around the Snakes perimeter, it becomes essentially impossible for the Snakes to expand. Remember, in Stirling's paradigm, having control of a system makes it prohibitively difficult to attack.

So you lock the Snakes into a set limited amount of resources, you continue to expand your own, and you kill every ship they have that leaves their systems. The way the moleholes seem to work in the book, it would be literally possible to get your entire fleet to whatever point of conflict there is, effectively instantly, provided you did your prepwork beforehand. Since the Samothracians got their molehole exit near to Sol without the Snakes detecting squat, there's no way for the Draka to anticpate where their expeditions are going to be jumped from.

Properly done, you can cut off at the knees any Draka effort to establish an installation to make their own moleholes in retaliation.


This is ignoring the lovely possibilities inherent in transiting some of your people to another timeline where Earth is uninhabited, equip them with a planet killer bomb, get them to Earth, have them jump back to their universe of origin, and blow the Snake's primary stronghold to Hell. I thought of that at the age of fifteen or so when I first read the book, why the fuck couldn't the Samothracians?
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Post by Jetfire »

I literally just finished rereading Drakon.

The impression I had was that:

a) The Samothracians were not that far ahead of the Draka with Molehole technology. They could detect and use it, but it was still a fairly new tech. They were using it to watch the Sol system for what the Draka were up to, and they were clearly planning the big attack on Sol System. Those plans were most likely accellerated when the Draka showed their own signs of Molehole tech.

b) The Samothracian has a MUCH smaller population and industrial base than the Draka. Lafarge mentionned how NY City (or was it NYState?) had more people than the entire colony did. Considering they had to rebuild everything from just 1 colony ship on a virgin world; and they've only had 400 years to do that build up, they did surprisingly well as is.

I have read, years ago, that some people suspected that the event that sent Nantucket back to 2000BC in the "Island in the Sea of Time" trilogy, was a Samothracian plot to create an Earth that would theoretically be amiable to them by 2000AD but also close to the Draka timelines. (I haven't read the other book he just released yet, the theory I read on the Newsgroups when ISOT was just coming out)
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Post by xammer99 »

But if the Samothracians use their moleholes to get their own colonies into position all around the Snakes perimeter, it becomes essentially impossible for the Snakes to expand. Remember, in Stirling's paradigm, having control of a system makes it prohibitively difficult to attack.
You are over estimating how many folks the Samothracians have to work with. There are fewer than 5 million of’em total and space is very large. So surrounding them would be quite difficult. Also remember that the Snakes have been sending out colonies for quite some time, so that makes it even more difficult to do.

A better solution would be automated defenses in each system and this might well have happened. There is nothing that says it wasn’t happened and that there are even any snake colonies left outside of sol.
So you lock the Snakes into a set limited amount of resources, you continue to expand your own, and you kill every ship they have that leaves their systems.


You REALLY under estimate just how vast the resources of an entire star system are. For a good idea of what an entire system can churn out read Peter F. Hamilton’s Pandora’ Star, what the Immotiles were doin. There is a LOT of stuff to use up out there.

As for pickin off the ships as they leave, well ya got a problem with given the FTL that the Samothracians have. 1. It doesn’t impart acceleration/velocity. You just move from point a to b. So your intercept target will go zippin by at relativistic speed. 2. You’ll get some but once the snakes wise up they’ll send’em out and because your mole hole equates to time travel that you skip over, your target could maneuver during that time and end up well out of danger.
The way the moleholes seem to work in the book, it would be literally possible to get your entire fleet to whatever point of conflict there is, effectively instantly, provided you did your prepwork beforehand.
Awhile the Moleholes allows instant point to point travel you still have the time difference. Alpha Centauri is no matter what, 4 years away from Sol.
Since the Samothracians got their molehole exit near to Sol without the Snakes detecting squat, there's no way for the Draka to anticpate where their expeditions are going to be jumped from.
That was before they knew how to make’em or detect’em. But they were obviously catching up, and by the end of the book seemed to have caught up to a large extent. But again we don’t know if they achieved any degree of parity.
Properly done, you can cut off at the knees any Draka effort to establish an installation to make their own moleholes in retaliation.
May be, may be not. There is no proof that you can open a molehole that covers distance rather than side slips inside a system. From the books it seems you can’t but there is nothing really either way.

This is ignoring the lovely possibilities inherent in transiting some of your people to another timeline where Earth is uninhabited, equip them with a planet killer bomb, get them to Earth, have them jump back to their universe of origin, and blow the Snake's primary stronghold to Hell. I thought of that at the age of fifteen or so when I first read the book, why the fuck couldn't the Samothracians?
Cause they want the planet back? Again, who says they haven’t. They failed to do it the way that would preserve Earth (may be). That might be a fall back.

One other thing about the ending…doesn’t it strike anyone as odd that after making contact that the leader of the Domination himself is there in battle armor ready to go into the new world to start conquering and is takin over all this hardware and these troops? That always struck me as the Samothracian’s might not have actually lost but things are on “hold” and the Archon is takin an out while he still has it. But we might not ever know.
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Post by xammer99 »

Jetfire wrote: I have read, years ago, that some people suspected that the event that sent Nantucket back to 2000BC in the "Island in the Sea of Time" trilogy, was a Samothracian plot to create an Earth that would theoretically be amiable to them by 2000AD but also close to the Draka timelines. (I haven't read the other book he just released yet, the theory I read on the Newsgroups when ISOT was just coming out)
Now that is pretty cool. Btw are the Island in the SEa of Time books worth a flip?

Also any indication that the Nantucket sent back was actually from Domination Earth?
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Post by Raxmei »

xammer99 wrote:Also any indication that the Nantucket sent back was actually from Domination Earth?
Absolutely no chance at all. Island had a Bill Clinton as the President of the US in the early to mid 90s. In The Stone Dogs, which took place at the same time, the President was Mexican and a woman. Numerous other little differences are apparent.
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Post by Jetfire »

xammer99 wrote:
Jetfire wrote: I have read, years ago, that some people suspected that the event that sent Nantucket back to 2000BC in the "Island in the Sea of Time" trilogy, was a Samothracian plot to create an Earth that would theoretically be amiable to them by 2000AD but also close to the Draka timelines. (I haven't read the other book he just released yet, the theory I read on the Newsgroups when ISOT was just coming out)
Now that is pretty cool. Btw are the Island in the SEa of Time books worth a flip?

Also any indication that the Nantucket sent back was actually from Domination Earth?
I enjoyed it myself. Some obvious Author induced situations to get things going the way he wanted, but all in all seemed a good read to me. (I also just finished rereading the trilogy :).

Nantucket definitely came from our timeline, or a very similar one to it. Walker and Hong would definitely have mentionned the Domination as their inspiration if it existed. And lots of other details, talk about visiting modern Greece on UN tours, remembering what modern England was like, using leftover Cesna parts to build the dirigibles, etc...

About the only simularities between ISOT and Draka, is that ISOT was using steam-vehicles (steam cars and trucks) towards the end of the Trilogy, which is what sent the Draka-earth down its tech path. But I hold that more as one of the Author's personal hangups than any intentional simularities.

(Stirling has a new book, that should be hitting softcover in a month or so, which supposedly deals with the world Nantucket left behind, but I haven't read it yet myself) The chapter I did read though had a very current USA in it.
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