Galactic Empire vs. Imperium of Man - Mk.II

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Galactic Empire vs. Imperium of Man - Mk.II

Post by Shinova » 2005-05-25 02:54am

There was a 27-page debate a long time ago inquiring whether the GE could invade the Imperial Palace on Terra and abduct the GEoM.


So, here's a different debate:




First, let's say, hypothetically, through some weird reason, all of Chaos, the Orks, both Eldar races, the Nids, Necrons, Tau, all of them, spontaneously disappeared.

Two, the Eye of Terror transforms into a small wormhole, about a few hundred thousand kilometers in diameter, stationed about a few million kilometers from Cadia.

Recon forces report back to Palpatine and he decides the IoM looks like a ripe target for conquest. And thus, the GE invades through this wormhole.


Can the IoM, now free to utilize all of its assets, fend off this new foe or will it become a subject of the GE?


And keep in mind, the forces and influences of Chaos are now gone, therefore the GE will not be under the threat of Chaotic possession (of course, this would also apply for the IoM). Consequently, I think this might also "clear the sky" up a little bit for IoM psykers and make them better, but I'm dunno.
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-05-25 02:59am

The Galactic Empire crushes the Imperium of Man.

1) They have more powerful ships.

2) They have a much more powerful industrial base

3) They have far larger population base.

4) Star Wars FTL can get from the galactic core to the far reaches of the galaxy in hours. The IoM FTL needs half a year to do that.

Numbers, firepower, FTL speed, and production capacity all favor the GE. The psyker advantage of the IoM doesn't make a big enough difference.
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Post by Murazor » 2005-05-25 03:02am

From what I have heard, non Chaos interference means increased speed for warp. Other than that, little changes. The IoM needs to put a serious wormhole defense to stand a chance or ask the Emperor to create one of those Warp storms around the thing. They can not make any offensive moves with their far more limited resources.

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-05-25 03:03am

No Chaos means no Chaos corruption of the GE, which is something they would have a serious problem combating. It just tips the scales for heavily in their favor.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-05-25 03:07am

A few problems with this:

Chaos, the Warp, psychic abilities, and FTL travel and communication are all one and the same. Removing them will instantly destroy the Imperium. Furthermore, Chaos and the Warp are as fundamental an aspect of 40k as the Force is in Star Wars. Just as the Force is the unifying force that binds all life together, Chaos is the tangible manifestation of the thoughts and emotions of all sentient creatures.

Secondly, the Imperium is severely handicapped even assuming it can utilize 100% of its forces on a single front. It is laden with bureaucracy, hierarchies, and organizations specifically designed to combat Chaos. In a straight up-and-up brawl these are less than useless and hinder greatly. The under-equipped Imperial Guard and strict limit of 1000 Chapters of 1000 Marines each are examples of this.
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Post by Shinova » 2005-05-25 03:11am

JediNeophyte wrote:A few problems with this:

Chaos, the Warp, psychic abilities, and FTL travel and communication are all one and the same. Removing them will instantly destroy the Imperium. Furthermore, Chaos and the Warp are as fundamental an aspect of 40k as the Force is in Star Wars. Just as the Force is the unifying force that binds all life together, Chaos is the tangible manifestation of the thoughts and emotions of all sentient creatures.

I was under the impression that the Warp was just there, but it was all the negative thoughts and emotions polluting it that gave rise to the Chaos Gods.

So if these centers of negative Warp powers are gone, wouldn't it mean that the Warp as a dimension where thoughts and souls can inhabit and where stuff can travel through still exists anyway?
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-05-25 03:20am

Shinova wrote:I was under the impression that the Warp was just there, but it was all the negative thoughts and emotions polluting it that gave rise to the Chaos Gods.

So if these centers of negative Warp powers are gone, wouldn't it mean that the Warp as a dimension where thoughts and souls can inhabit and where stuff can travel through still exists anyway?
Emphasis mine.

That's largely correct. The problem is that as long as Humanity exists (in its current form, at least), so too will Chaos. Those "negative thoughts and emotions" come primarily from humans in the 41st millenium. It's kind of like removing the Dark Side from the Force - it doesn't really make sense.

Removing the Eldar from the equation also plays hell with things.
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Post by Shinova » 2005-05-25 03:26am

Okay, then lets say that those negative thoughts and emotions do circle around in the Warp and stuff, but these things don't take sentience and actively go out and corrupt people like daemons and the Chaos gods do.


Either way, I just wanted to remove Chaos from the equation as an active participant.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die » 2005-05-25 03:28am

You know...

The absolute worse thing the Empire can do is conquer or destroy Earth. If they do, the God Emperor will become a REAL Warp God and then you'll have to deal with the better of a Chaos God but with human survival as his main goal. The Emperor has demonstrated time-warping and warp powers that make DE Palpatine look weak at times, and he isnt at full power yet really. When his power is 'unbound' i imagine the Empire would be royally fucked.

The best bet would be--IF they realize this--to simply blockade Sol and cut it off from the galaxy-at-large.

Of course i could be wrong. And this is a little nebulous of course because it's a prophecy, but i think it comes from the 'omnipotent narrator' of the fluf so it is kind of a certainty.
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Post by Bob the Gunslinger » 2005-05-25 03:42am

Shinova wrote:

I was under the impression that the Warp was just there, but it was all the negative thoughts and emotions polluting it that gave rise to the Chaos Gods.

So if these centers of negative Warp powers are gone, wouldn't it mean that the Warp as a dimension where thoughts and souls can inhabit and where stuff can travel through still exists anyway?
Heck, I was under the impression that Chaos was the reason the GEoM was holding mankind back from becoming an all-psyker species.

Plus, he is supposedly under constant attack from the Chaos Gods and resisting them takes up almost all of his concentration. Without Chaos, wouldn't he be able to focus on the GE and basicly become Super Wankatine?
Without actual Daemons, the Inquisition is going to be able to pull off some amazing warp-power shit with all the forbidden texts they've collected. And I imagine all the saints and primarchs will be free to manifest/reincarnate themselves, too.

Without Chaos, the 40k universe is whacked out.
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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-05-25 03:45am

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:And I imagine all the saints and primarchs will be free to manifest/reincarnate themselves, too.
'cept for Sanguinius, since he's permanently dead by all accounts.
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-05-25 03:45am

The Emperor turning into a warp god doesn't mean an automatic IoM win. It's hard to say what will happen due to the difficulty of quantifying the powers of an entity that doesn't (yet) exist. He won't be omnipotent though and the GE has huge advantages.
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Post by Falkenhayn » 2005-05-25 11:12am

Black Admiral wrote:
Bob the Gunslinger wrote:And I imagine all the saints and primarchs will be free to manifest/reincarnate themselves, too.
'cept for Sanguinius, since he's permanently dead by all accounts.
As are Rogal Dorn, Ferrus Manus and Roboute Guilleman. That leaves Vulkan, The Lion, Leman Russ, Corax, Janghatai Khan and one other IIRC.

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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-05-25 11:21am

Falkenhayn wrote:As are Rogal Dorn, Ferrus Manus and Roboute Guilleman. That leaves Vulkan, The Lion, Leman Russ, Corax, Janghatai Khan and one other IIRC.
AFAIK neither Rogal Dorn or Manus have been confirmed as dead (granted, it would be really hard for Dorn to be alive).
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Post by Uraniun235 » 2005-05-25 11:49am

Not only is the IoM more free to act in this scenario; so too the GE is now more free to use whatever degree of force it sees fit to eliminate enemy assets. (i.e. orbital support of ground forces, or outright orbital bombardment of the major fortresses like Mars).

This contest will primarily be decided by the space fleets of the two sides. I'm inclined to favor the Galactic Empire on this one.

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Post by Falkenhayn » 2005-05-25 12:00pm

Black Admiral wrote:
Falkenhayn wrote:As are Rogal Dorn, Ferrus Manus and Roboute Guilleman. That leaves Vulkan, The Lion, Leman Russ, Corax, Janghatai Khan and one other IIRC.
AFAIK neither Rogal Dorn or Manus have been confirmed as dead (granted, it would be really hard for Dorn to be alive).
Nope. Dorn's dead. They recovered his body from the bridge of a Chaos Battleship and all that remains of it is his mummified right hand. Read the Imperial Fists IA.

Last I checked, it was Manus against seven Legions of Chaos SM, their lackeys and Primarchs. It's not like Corax or Vulcan or even The Lion in that there is no Deus Ex disappearing act that maintains some small probability of his being alive. The Eisenstein and the five remaining loyalists were all that got out. Istvaan IV was then virus bombed. So yes, his death has never been confirmed.

For the purposes of this debate however, it is more than reasonable to assume Manus didn't survive the Drop Massacre.

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Post by DocHorror » 2005-05-25 12:18pm

Errr, they found Dorns hands but not his body IIRC.
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Post by Black Admiral » 2005-05-25 12:33pm

Also, IIRC, Manus is mentioned in the IA article on the Black Templars as siding with Dorn when he told Guilliman to go to hell on splitting up the Legions.
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Post by DocHorror » 2005-05-25 12:37pm

Also, IIRC, Manus is mentioned in the IA article on the Black Templars as siding with Dorn when he told Guilliman to go to hell on splitting up the Legions.
Thats odd since I thought he died at Istavaan. The Iron Hands apparently loath the Raven Guard and Salamanders because they failed to back up Manus's charge into the Traitors lines and thus caused his death.
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2005-05-25 01:37pm

DocHorror wrote:Errr, they found Dorns hands but not his body IIRC.
This all from the IA article/ Damn. I thought they'd just lifted chunks from Ian Watson's Space Marine novel; in that, the Fists had Dorn's corpse preserved, without the hands, which were kept separately in stasis, and on which the Chaoter Masters engraved their heraldry on.
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Post by SAMAS » 2005-05-25 01:48pm

You may not be able to count Gulliman out, either. Apparently, despite being both seemingly dead and in a stasis cell, he wounds have been slowly healing.
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Post by DocHorror » 2005-05-25 01:59pm

In Space Marine they have his bones covered in an amber-like material which when they could light to make it look like his had skin. In the IA they find his hand(s?) on the bridge of a Chaos Battleship. Where the rest of him ended up is a mystery. The rest is fairly similar to Space Marine though.
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Post by Currald » 2005-05-25 02:28pm

SAMAS wrote:You may not be able to count Gulliman out, either. Apparently, despite being both seemingly dead and in a stasis cell, he wounds have been slowly healing.
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Post by Junghalli » 2005-05-25 04:40pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:The Emperor turning into a warp god doesn't mean an automatic IoM win. It's hard to say what will happen due to the difficulty of quantifying the powers of an entity that doesn't (yet) exist. He won't be omnipotent though and the GE has huge advantages.
Anybody have any thoughts as to what would happen to that wormhole if it found itself in the middle of another Storm of the Emperor's Wrath? Wouldn't that fuck it up?

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Post by Falkenhayn » 2005-05-25 04:57pm

SAMAS wrote:You may not be able to count Gulliman out, either. Apparently, despite being both seemingly dead and in a stasis cell, he wounds have been slowly healing.
True enough. But the first Ultramarine to turn off the field and find out will be...

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