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I'm still very confused when I think about the scene between Mace and Sidious, who won that fight?

I would LIKE to think that sidious purposefully got knocked down in-order to have anakin feel sorry for him,
I would LIKE to think that he deformed himself purposefully to show anakin that he was dying,

but did he just get an old fashioned ass kicking???
I"m a palpy fan, but after that scene, i lost respect for his power,
what are your thoughts?

Here is something else I've been considering, if palpatine left himself without a lightsabre, on his back with two powerful jedi standing over him, and anakin DIDN'T turn, what would he have done? The war was already coming to an end, he didn't NEED anakin, but why would he gamble his life for it,
If he COULD have turned on the juice and just zapped mace and overcame his block with the lightsabre, why didn't he do it to yoda? why couldn't he kill yoda?

very confusing,

Mace had him, stone cold. He faked being on the edge of death, mostly, and the rest of it for Anakin's sake. But as for the fight, Mace really did have him from the looks of it.

Mace was supposed to be the best fighter of the Jedi and second only to Yoda. So I think it's pretty clear he won that one.

Stormbringer wrote:Mace had him, stone cold. He faked being on the edge of death, mostly, and the rest of it for Anakin's sake. But as for the fight, Mace really did have him from the looks of it.

Mace was supposed to be the best fighter of the Jedi and second only to Yoda. So I think it's pretty clear he won that one.

but what i don't understand is how palpy fought yoda to a standstill with the lightsabres, but lost to mace, and very convincingly

I'm not sure exactly either. Mace probaby did have him though...

But consider that he used Mace's attack to tell Anakin that the Jedi turned on him. While he was cowering under Mace's light saber, he kept saying, "you see?" Also, he told Anakin that he was weak and needed his help. He kept saying "I'm weak!," but as soon as Anakin chopped Mace's hands off, Palpy suddenly got his strength back and blasted him out the window. He also used his facial deformity as PROOF that the Jedi attacked him.

I think Mace had him, but I'm really not 100% sure.

it could be that Mace's unique lightsaber form was too different for Palpy to handle. Yoda used a fairly well-known form.

palpy mauled yoda, and force lightninged mace given the chance.

he prolly wasnt too worried, but he sure does whimper well.

Omega-13 wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:Mace had him, stone cold. He faked being on the edge of death, mostly, and the rest of it for Anakin's sake. But as for the fight, Mace really did have him from the looks of it.

Mace was supposed to be the best fighter of the Jedi and second only to Yoda. So I think it's pretty clear he won that one.

but what i don't understand is how palpy fought yoda to a standstill with the lightsabres, but lost to mace, and very convincingly

Any Given Sunday

Stormbringer wrote:Mace had him, stone cold. He faked being on the edge of death, mostly, and the rest of it for Anakin's sake. But as for the fight, Mace really did have him from the looks of it.

Mace was supposed to be the best fighter of the Jedi and second only to Yoda. So I think it's pretty clear he won that one.

Why did Palpy not kill Mace when he had the chance in the duel, but insted chose to continue fighting until Anakin was about to arrive? Convineint, don't you think?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

The movie and the novelization show that Mace had him beat in that saber duel. Besides Mace was using a style that directed Sidious darkside attacks back at him.

Why does everyone keep saying that Sidious beat Yoda? They seemed evenly matched it could have gone either way, there at the end. But please note which one of them was giving up ground during the battle. That's right Sidious was, he was not sure that he could beat Yoda. He probably never intended to take on the little green death machine mano-e-mano. It's not for nothing that Sids tells Yoda he can't win, “Lord Vader will be more powerful than both of us!". He's basically saying even if you kill me the Sith will still win. Clearly, not a 100% sure that he can beat Yoda, hence the contingency plan.

Yoda did not really lose, they knocked each other off the pedestal, and only Sidious was able to find a hand hold. After Yoda, fell he lost his lightsabre, the element of surprise and more importantly he's more than a hundred feet away from Sidious at that point. He couldn't resume his attack, and it’s not like the senate building was not swarming with clones by then. Unless of course you think Mas Ameeda just ran and hid, rather than going and get help.

Oh, and Sidious did not own Yoda in the saber duel. Sids wasn't making any head way with his saber so he switched back to force lightning. A tacit admission that he could take yoda with a light saber.

Ugh form this, form that. He just beat him, as far as I could tell.

As for 'why didn't he blast him out the window' argument - he FUCKING TRIED. Mace protected himself and MELTED HIS FACE OFF. The second blast only worked because Mace DIDN'T HAVE A FUCKING HAND. Was Sidious playing around with the first lightening? Yeah, I bet.

Omega-13 wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:Mace had him, stone cold. He faked being on the edge of death, mostly, and the rest of it for Anakin's sake. But as for the fight, Mace really did have him from the looks of it.

Mace was supposed to be the best fighter of the Jedi and second only to Yoda. So I think it's pretty clear he won that one.

but what i don't understand is how palpy fought yoda to a standstill with the lightsabres, but lost to mace, and very convincingly

Simple, Mace was supposedly a much better swordsman, not suprisingly considering that Yoda is at best knee high. Mace simply was better at fighting, had a very unique style, and was better suited to a lightsaber duel.

fgalkin wrote:Why did Palpy not kill Mace when he had the chance in the duel, but insted chose to continue fighting until Anakin was about to arrive? Convineint, don't you think?

Overconfidence? A simple mistake? I didn't notice anything that would suggest he deliberately lost the fight. As others have said, risking being killed and having his face melted off seems an awfully stupid thing to do. Especially since Mace might well have just killed him stone cold dead; Mace is supposed to be pretty hard edge in that regard.

Spartan wrote:Yoda did not really lose, they knocked each other off the pedestal, and only Sidious was able to find a hand hold. After Yoda, fell he lost his lightsabre, the element of surprise and more importantly he's more than a hundred feet away from Sidious at that point. He couldn't resume his attack, and it’s not like the senate building was not swarming with clones by then. Unless of course you think Mas Ameeda just ran and hid, rather than going and get help.

The simple fact was it would have been a crap shoot. Rather than risk the Jedi legacy in a suicidal fight that he might not have won, Yoda withdrew to save himself and the Jedi.

Spartan wrote:Oh, and Sidious did not own Yoda in the saber duel. Sids wasn't making any head way with his saber so he switched back to force lightning. A tacit admission that he could take yoda with a light saber.

Indeed, they were apparently very evenly matched.

Stark wrote:Ugh form this, form that. He just beat him, as far as I could tell.

As for 'why didn't he blast him out the window' argument - he FUCKING TRIED. Mace protected himself and MELTED HIS FACE OFF. The second blast only worked because Mace DIDN'T HAVE A FUCKING HAND. Was Sidious playing around with the first lightening? Yeah, I bet.

How many times must we go through the fact that his face WASN'T melted by that Force lightning, but his true form revealed? And Mace still made himself pretty damn open by raising his arm so high, just so Anakin could come in and take that arm off. The Sidious saw a chance and took him out far easier than before.

Mace had Sids beat fair and square, he was about to kill him...then Anakin showed up, cut of Mace's hands and broke his concentration. That was that.

Yoda had Sidious on skill, if not power. They were very evenly matched, and the battle was largely a draw...until Sidious pulled some tricky shit and Yoda fell a HUNDRED feet onto his BACK against solid steel and most likely shoudl have died. It's a miracle and a testiment to his own physical strength that he survived that fall at all! Of course he ran, he was probably in agony and part of spine was most likely reduced to splinters, i cant imagine him not having some broken bones from that fall.

Spartan wrote:The movie and the novelization show that Mace had him beat in that saber duel. Besides Mace was using a style that directed Sidious darkside attacks back at him.

Why does everyone keep saying that Sidious beat Yoda? They seemed evenly matched it could have gone either way, there at the end. But please note which one of them was giving up ground during the battle. That's right Sidious was, he was not sure that he could beat Yoda. He probably never intended to take on the little green death machine mano-e-mano. It's not for nothing that Sids tells Yoda he can't win, “Lord Vader will be more powerful than both of us!". He's basically saying even if you kill me the Sith will still win. Clearly, not a 100% sure that he can beat Yoda, hence the contingency plan.

Yoda did not really lose, they knocked each other off the pedestal, and only Sidious was able to find a hand hold. After Yoda, fell he lost his lightsabre, the element of surprise and more importantly he's more than a hundred feet away from Sidious at that point. He couldn't resume his attack, and it’s not like the senate building was not swarming with clones by then. Unless of course you think Mas Ameeda just ran and hid, rather than going and get help.

Oh, and Sidious did not own Yoda in the saber duel. Sids wasn't making any head way with his saber so he switched back to force lightning. A tacit admission that he could take yoda with a light saber.

All of that is completely irrelevent since Sidious still won. Yoda disengaged, ergo, lost. It's no use saying anything otherwise and since, as you admit, it was a stalemate near enough, I don't see Sidious or Yoda letting up anytime soon.

And what good is being dead? Vader wasn't a contingency plan, he was there to give Sidious more leverage. You think Sidious gives a shit for anyone else? If he dies, then everything he accomplished is for nothing. No, he wasn't going to be a martyr, he didn't seem to give a shit for a Sith Empire unless he was top dog.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:

All of that is completely irrelevent since Sidious still won. Yoda disengaged, ergo, lost. It's no use saying anything otherwise and since, as you admit, it was a stalemate near enough, I don't see Sidious or Yoda letting up anytime soon.

Yes, he won due to the situation. But he that battle in no way proves that Sids could take Yoda down. Yoda was not pounded as so many Palpatine wankers keep screaming. That battle was not Palpatine vs. Yoda to the death; it was Palpatine plus the a gazillion clones vs. Yoda to the Death. Yoda had to withdraw do you really think that had he stayed that Sids would have continued their slap fight.

The fact that Yoda was unable to end the fight quickly, is what truly won the fight for Sids. The longer their battle lasted the more time and reienforcements were on his side. Which is why Sids, gave ground (read: ran) for most of the fight.

And what good is being dead? Vader wasn't a contingency plan, he was there to give Sidious more leverage. You think Sidious gives a shit for anyone else? If he dies, then everything he accomplished is for nothing. No, he wasn't going to be a martyr, he didn't seem to give a shit for a Sith Empire unless he was top dog.

See that's where your wrong Palpatine is a Sith, and in ROTS he is not immortal. Vader was intended to be his chosen sucessor. What he was sying was if he an Yoda both die fighting, the Sith still when because Vader will still be around. Sids changes his plans only after he figures out the clone/live transfer. Where are you getting that Sids didn't care about the Sith legacy? Ofcourse he does, its what the PT is all about, beating the Jedi and restoring the Sith. Now, he changes his tune decades later but thats got nothing to due with his motivations at the time of ROTS.

Why do I say Yoda was beaten by Palpatine? Seeing as how Yoda went away from the fight lamenting about his failure, i'd say that fight went to the Sith.

The thing is, Palpatine needed Mace to be alive and have the upper hand when Anakin arrived. Otherwise, Anakin will not be forced to choose between Palpatine, who possibly holds the key to saving his wife, and Mace, who is breaking the Jedi code by trying to assassinate the Chancellor.

If Anakin walks into the office and sees Palpatine standing over the remains of the four Jedi masters, he does not have the same dilemma. He also wouldn't have the guilt of helping to kill Mace on his conscience, which was one of the reasons that he felt that he had gone too far and that the Jedi could never forgive him.

So... I believe that Palpatine sensed that Anakin was on his way, allowed Mace to survive the initial attack (when he killed three of the masters in about ten seconds), and took the risk that Mace would not kill him too quickly for Anakin to intervene.

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Mace had Sids beat fair and square, he was about to kill him...then Anakin showed up, cut of Mace's hands and broke his concentration. That was that.

Was it one hand, or both? It just looked like one to me...

Haminal:

That assumes Palpatine knew Anakin was soon to arive. There is no evidence of this. Is it a coincidence? Maybe it IS, Lord knows weirder things have happened.

This si circular logic, see? He MUST have known because he wouldnt have lost if he wasnt trying to turn Anakin.

But why not? Why cant Mace just be stronger? Isint that simpler and more in line with what appears on screen? I think it is.

Molyneux wrote:

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Mace had Sids beat fair and square, he was about to kill him...then Anakin showed up, cut of Mace's hands and broke his concentration. That was that.

Was it one hand, or both? It just looked like one to me...

I think, both.

fgalkin wrote:Why did Palpy not kill Mace when he had the chance in the duel, but insted chose to continue fighting until Anakin was about to arrive? Convineint, don't you think?

Mace wanted Palpatine to stand trial at first.

I think Mace had Palpy beat - Palpy's fear was evident after Mace batted his lightsaber away.

I was watching it (again) today, and it almost looks as though Palpatine slips his lightsaber up his sleeve when he's at the window fighting Mace. I'll see it again next time tight-arse Tuesday comes around, so I'll take a closer look then.

For some reason that I can't fathom, I also feel that the fact that it was Palpatine's lightsaber that smashed the window was significant. I don't know why, but the sweep seems out of place with his normal sword style - he tended to prefer a stabbing style rather than a swinging style, and it just seemed odd that he was the one to break the window. Meh.

Then there were the looks the Emeror was giving Anakin while he was begging. They weren't scared looks, they were "is he reacting as I expected" looks.

18 Till I Die wrote:That assumes Palpatine knew Anakin was soon to arive. There is no evidence of this. Is it a coincidence? Maybe it IS, Lord knows weirder things have happened.

I think he did know that Anakin was coming - he used his Dark force mind speak trick on Anakin to point out that he was the only one who could save Padme.

Putting himself in direct danger to achieve his purpose certainly isn't unheard of in Palpatine's biography - the "kidnapping" that he arranged was not safe, and neither was admitting to Anakin that he was the Sith Lord in the first place. Going forward 18-odd years, he is quite willing to use himself as human bait in order to destroy the rebellion, and his method of corrupting Luke (well attempting to anyway) was to goad Luke into attacking him.

Whatever else you might say about the Emperor, you have to give credit where credit's due. He's got guts.

And Unlimited Power.

This si circular logic, see? He MUST have known because he wouldnt have lost if he wasnt trying to turn Anakin.

It's not circular logic. He needed to put Anakin in a dilema, he had to make Anakin choose. Either to help Palpatine or help Mace. If Mace had won, then game over. If Palpy had won, Anakin would've gone "shit, you're batshit! I'm going to kill you, you old shit!"

Spartan wrote:Why does everyone keep saying that Sidious beat Yoda? They seemed evenly matched it could have gone either way, there at the end. But please note which one of them was giving up ground during the battle. That's right Sidious was, he was not sure that he could beat Yoda. He probably never intended to take on the little green death machine mano-e-mano. It's not for nothing that Sids tells Yoda he can't win, “Lord Vader will be more powerful than both of us!". He's basically saying even if you kill me the Sith will still win. Clearly, not a 100% sure that he can beat Yoda, hence the contingency plan.

Yoda did not really lose, they knocked each other off the pedestal, and only Sidious was able to find a hand hold. After Yoda, fell he lost his lightsabre, the element of surprise and more importantly he's more than a hundred feet away from Sidious at that point. He couldn't resume his attack, and it’s not like the senate building was not swarming with clones by then. Unless of course you think Mas Ameeda just ran and hid, rather than going and get help.

Oh, and Sidious did not own Yoda in the saber duel. Sids wasn't making any head way with his saber so he switched back to force lightning. A tacit admission that he could take yoda with a light saber.

Not according to the novel, yoda would have lost.

The thing is, Palpatine needed Mace to be alive and have the upper hand when Anakin arrived. Otherwise, Anakin will not be forced to choose between Palpatine, who possibly holds the key to saving his wife, and Mace, who is breaking the Jedi code by trying to assassinate the Chancellor.

Don't be ridiculous, had Palpatine been able to kill Mace as quickly as he did the other masters, he would have. He still would have the recording of the Jedi treachery and the fact that Skywalker need him to sway Anakin to his side. There is no sane reason for Palpatine to risk his life in an extended battle with Mace if he did not have to.