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 Post subject: Why don't all missionaries just fucking die? PostPosted: 2005-04-30 07:59pm
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I have a good friend in China. She's been almost like a sister to me for many years. As I was talking to her yesterday, she mentioned that she has to go to church tomorrow. I asked her which church she attends. She answered LDS. I talked to her a little about it, and told her what I know about them. Anyway, when I asked her why she wants to be a Mormon, she said "because it feels right." I told her that I'm no fan of church, but that probably just about any other church would be better than those fucking nut jobs.

Anyway, I just told her what I thought. I guess there's nothing I can do. Fucking Mormons are like cancer, they have to spread and they're hard to stop.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-30 07:59pm
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Correction: any NON fundie group would be better than Mormons.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-30 08:40pm
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Maybe you could point her towards Buddism or something like that. I'm sure they offer the same emotional fullfillments that Christianity can.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-30 08:48pm
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Wicked Pilot wrote:
Maybe you could point her towards Buddism or something like that. I'm sure they offer the same emotional fullfillments that Christianity can.
Yeah, but buddhism is very non-materialist posessions.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-30 08:59pm
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Mormonism?

Interesting choice...

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-30 10:08pm
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Choice? Thats a good one.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-05-01 12:13am
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Mormons have one of the most efficient ideology propogation techniques I've ever seen. In order to become a full fledged Mormon, aka Elder, young Mormons in their late teens/early twenties most go off on an extended mission. Once they leave they are forbidden to call home except twice a year. All previous relationships are supposed to be put on hold for the duration of the mission and the individual's only active relationship are within the church.

Coupling the sex drive (in order to get the full marriage gig), rite of passage, and many brainwashing techniques into a single package with sole design of gaining converts was quite brilliant thinking. The only reason Mormon missionaries aren't even more successful is that Mormonism has more obvious baggage than most religions.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-05-01 12:49am
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tharkûn wrote:
Mormons have one of the most efficient ideology propogation techniques I've ever seen. In order to become a full fledged Mormon, aka Elder, young Mormons in their late teens/early twenties most go off on an extended mission. Once they leave they are forbidden to call home except twice a year. All previous relationships are supposed to be put on hold for the duration of the mission and the individual's only active relationship are within the church.

Coupling the sex drive (in order to get the full marriage gig), rite of passage, and many brainwashing techniques into a single package with sole design of gaining converts was quite brilliant thinking. The only reason Mormon missionaries aren't even more successful is that Mormonism has more obvious baggage than most religions.


At least mainstream christianity lays claim to a group of people thatr actually existed... the jews that apparantly went to S. America... well...yeah



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 Post subject: Re: Why don't all missionaries just fucking die? PostPosted: 2005-05-01 03:44am
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Superman wrote:
I have a good friend in China. She's been almost like a sister to me for many years. As I was talking to her yesterday, she mentioned that she has to go to church tomorrow. I asked her which church she attends. She answered LDS. I talked to her a little about it, and told her what I know about them. Anyway, when I asked her why she wants to be a Mormon, she said "because it feels right." I told her that I'm no fan of church, but that probably just about any other church would be better than those fucking nut jobs.

Anyway, I just told her what I thought. I guess there's nothing I can do. Fucking Mormons are like cancer, they have to spread and they're hard to stop.

Try referring her to this page:

TO THOSE WHO ARE INVESTIGATING "MORMONISM"

Then ask her how it can "feel right" joining a cult that is incontestably and demonstrably built around falsehoods and fabrications, promulgated by a proved liar and con man. If she balks at that description of Smith, enjoin her to read this web page again thoroughly, paying particular attention to paragraphs like the following:

Quote:
The detailed history and civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes a civilization lasting for a thousand years, covering both North and South America, which was familiar with horses, elephants, cattle, sheep, wheat, barley, steel, wheeled vehicles, shipbuilding, sails, coins, and other elements of Old World culture. But no trace of any of these supposedly very common things has ever been found in the Americas of that period. Nor does the Book of Mormon mention many of the features of the civilizations which really did exist at that time in the Americas. The LDS church has spent millions of dollars over many years trying to prove through archaeological research that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical record, but they have failed to produce any convincing pre-columbian archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon story. In addition, whereas the Book of Mormon presents the picture of a relatively homogeneous people, with a single language and communication between distant parts of the Americas, the pre-columbian history of the Americas shows the opposite: widely disparate racial types (almost entirely east Asian - definitely not Semitic), and many unrelated native languages, none of which are even remotely related to Hebrew or Egyptian.


Quote:
Joseph Smith claimed to be a "translator" by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other "translations":

- The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1838. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up.


Ask her how it can "feel right" to build her life around a tissue of lies.

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 Post subject: Re: Why don't all missionaries just fucking die? PostPosted: 2005-05-01 03:58am
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Perinquus wrote:

Ask her how it can "feel right" to build her life around a tissue of lies.


Well most religions take some truths and then build lies around it, even if the truth is only that certain races did exists at the time specified.



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 Post subject: Re: Why don't all missionaries just fucking die? PostPosted: 2005-05-01 04:33am
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mr friendly guy wrote:
Perinquus wrote:

Ask her how it can "feel right" to build her life around a tissue of lies.


Well most religions take some truths and then build lies around it, even if the truth is only that certain races did exists at the time specified.

True. There is, for example, very good reason to believe that Jesus is not even a historical figure. Or at best, he is a quasi historical one, like King Arthur, and possibly Robin Hood. That is to say: a certain person (or perhaps even more than one person) perhaps did exist, and this person was notable enough for legends to form around him. In time these legends grew, and since little, if any, information was ever accurately recorded about him during his lifetime, or when people who might have known the truth were alive to remember it, all we now have are the legends that grew up afterward. But legends are not reality; and this person, if he existed at all, may have been very, very different from what we imagine.

But despite this, I can see how people could convince themselves of the reality of a figure who lived thousands of years ago. I can understand this. After all, there may not be a whole lot that can be verified about him from the historical record. But then again, there is a lot that we don't know about what happened two thousand years ago in the eastern Mediterranean. And as a result of this, there's not much about Jesus that can be conclusively disproven either. So it's understandable why people are willing to believe the events recorded in the Bible could have happened. People very often believe what they wish to. So they persuade themselves these things did happen. This is even easier to understand when one considers the very effective indoctrination techniques to which most believers are subjected by other believers.

However, in the case of Joseph Smith and the Mormon faith, there is simply so much that can, absolutely and incontrovertibly, be definitively shown to be nonsense and falsehood, and this is so well attested in the historical and archaeological record, that I marvel that people can actually dismiss this veritable mountain of refuting evidence, and convince themselves that Mormonism is a valid belief. It's so obviously and demonstrably based on falsehoods and outright, bald faced lies, that one simply has to display an incredibly high degree of willful blindness to accept it as fact.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-05-01 04:44am
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I recently was given a packet of Mormon cards with little bits of Mormon and Biblical scripture on them and instructions on how to follow them in your daily life. Some were fairly bog-standard stuff, but my personal favorite was the one that said, if you followed certain doctrinal instructions, you would inherit your own "celestial body"....as in a star, planet, or solar system.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-05-01 05:03am
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HemlockGrey wrote:
I recently was given a packet of Mormon cards with little bits of Mormon and Biblical scripture on them and instructions on how to follow them in your daily life. Some were fairly bog-standard stuff, but my personal favorite was the one that said, if you followed certain doctrinal instructions, you would inherit your own "celestial body"....as in a star, planet, or solar system.


I'd heard about that one. The first thing I thought when I heard the whole celestial body thing was, "Wow. Not only is Mormonism a cult, it's also a pyramid scheme."

Perinquus wrote:
True. There is, for example, very good reason to believe that Jesus is not even a historical figure. Or at best, he is a quasi historical one, like King Arthur, and possibly Robin Hood. That is to say: a certain person (or perhaps even more than one person) perhaps did exist, and this person was notable enough for legends to form around him.


I am usually willing to believe that there was some guy named Jesus. However, there was also a man named Apollonius of Tyana (probably spelled that wrong). According to his followers, he had all sorts of mystical powers. Eventually he was put on trial by the Roman courts, killed, and then supposedly rose from the dead and appeared to his followers. Sounds familiar, huh?

Apparently there were Messiahs running all over the place in that time period. To quote Penn and Teller: Bullshit!: "Monty Python's Life of Brian is more historically accurate than Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ!"

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 Post subject: Re: Why don't all missionaries just fucking die? PostPosted: 2005-05-01 05:21am
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Superman wrote:
I asked her which church she attends. She answered LDS.


The church that Spock did too much of back in the 60's?



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 Post subject: Re: Why don't all missionaries just fucking die? PostPosted: 2005-05-01 05:49am
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Durandal wrote:
Superman wrote:
I asked her which church she attends. She answered LDS.


The church that Spock did too much of back in the 60's?


ROTFL! That was I first thought when I saw that too.

Spock's church may have been less damaging.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-05-01 07:46am
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In order to become a full fledged Mormon, aka Elder, young Mormons in their late teens/early twenties most go off on an extended mission.


Not that I plan to respond to most of the bashing done thus far, just wanted to clarify that this is a blatent falsehood. Young men should go, but don't have to. To be a "full-fledged" mormon (whatever that means anyway) you do not have to be an elder anymore than to be a "full-fledged" catholic you must be a nun.

Quote:
However, in the case of Joseph Smith and the Mormon faith, there is simply so much that can, absolutely and incontrovertibly, be definitively shown to be nonsense and falsehood, and this is so well attested in the historical and archaeological record, that I marvel that people can actually dismiss this veritable mountain of refuting evidence, and convince themselves that Mormonism is a valid belief. It's so obviously and demonstrably based on falsehoods and outright, bald faced lies, that one simply has to display an incredibly high degree of willful blindness to accept it as fact.


That or the "facts" given have as much backing to them as fundie's creation theory.

Quote:
Once they leave they are forbidden to call home except twice a year

Funny, my cousin has alot more contact than that and he's been in the mission for a few months now.

Quote:
rite of passage

If you are refering to baptism this is hardly a new concept in christianity.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-05-01 10:15am
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Terr Fangbite wrote:
Quote:
In order to become a full fledged Mormon, aka Elder, young Mormons in their late teens/early twenties most go off on an extended mission.


Not that I plan to respond to most of the bashing done thus far, just wanted to clarify that this is a blatent falsehood. Young men should go, but don't have to. To be a "full-fledged" mormon (whatever that means anyway) you do not have to be an elder anymore than to be a "full-fledged" catholic you must be a nun.


Then let's re-phrase that; it's the ideal for young Mormon men to go on a mission for two years. Only about 1/3 of them do it, but 90% of men from active Mormon families do.

Quote:
Quote:
However, in the case of Joseph Smith and the Mormon faith, there is simply so much that can, absolutely and incontrovertibly, be definitively shown to be nonsense and falsehood, and this is so well attested in the historical and archaeological record, that I marvel that people can actually dismiss this veritable mountain of refuting evidence, and convince themselves that Mormonism is a valid belief. It's so obviously and demonstrably based on falsehoods and outright, bald faced lies, that one simply has to display an incredibly high degree of willful blindness to accept it as fact.


That or the "facts" given have as much backing to them as fundie's creation theory.


Did you actually look at the web site before putting up your Wall of Ignorance? The fact of the matter is that there is zero historical and archaeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon account of Hebrews migrating to the New World and setting up such a civilization, then dying and becoming the native Americans. And don't give me that equivocation about them only being "one part of the native Americans;" Smith clearly believed that they were THE ancestors of the Indians.

I suggest that you read a non-Church biography about Joseph Smith (why am I interested? Because I am an Ex-Mormon, Terr, and I used this stuff to free myself). Did you know that he changed the First Vision account 3 or 4 times, with the last account appearing in 1838? Or that, according to the actual statements of the so-called "Witnesses," none actually saw the Golden Plates with their eyes, only in "visions" or "dreams," as Martin Harris said?

Quote:
Quote:
Once they leave they are forbidden to call home except twice a year

Funny, my cousin has alot more contact than that and he's been in the mission for a few months now.


True, but is your cousin "calling" home, or mailing letters? The latter's been around for ages, but I have never heard of any of my cousins who went on missions being able to call home.

Quote:
Quote:
rite of passage

If you are refering to baptism this is hardly a new concept in christianity.
[/quote]

Red Herring. He's making a point that it serves in the brainwashing process.



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 Post subject: Re: Why don't all missionaries just fucking die? PostPosted: 2005-05-01 11:01am
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Perinquus wrote:
But despite this, I can see how people could convince themselves of the reality of a figure who lived thousands of years ago. I can understand this. After all, there may not be a whole lot that can be verified about him from the historical record. But then again, there is a lot that we don't know about what happened two thousand years ago in the eastern Mediterranean. And as a result of this, there's not much about Jesus that can be conclusively disproven either. So it's understandable why people are willing to believe the events recorded in the Bible could have happened. People very often believe what they wish to. So they persuade themselves these things did happen. This is even easier to understand when one considers the very effective indoctrination techniques to which most believers are subjected by other believers.

However, in the case of Joseph Smith and the Mormon faith, there is simply so much that can, absolutely and incontrovertibly, be definitively shown to be nonsense and falsehood, and this is so well attested in the historical and archaeological record, that I marvel that people can actually dismiss this veritable mountain of refuting evidence, and convince themselves that Mormonism is a valid belief. It's so obviously and demonstrably based on falsehoods and outright, bald faced lies, that one simply has to display an incredibly high degree of willful blindness to accept it as fact.

Look at it this way. They built a temple and cannonised the Monkey God, an entirely fictional character from a novel, that everybody knows is a novel and enjoyed as a literal classic.

Aka. Religious people can believe anything.



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 Post subject: Re: Why don't all missionaries just fucking die? PostPosted: 2005-05-01 11:07am
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PainRack wrote:
Look at it this way. They built a temple and cannonised the Monkey God, an entirely fictional character from a novel, that everybody knows is a novel and enjoyed as a literal classic.

Aka. Religious people can believe anything.


Ah, isn't that building in Singapore supposed to be a tourist attraction.

I assume you are talking about the building which has statues of the characters from "journey to the west" or "adventures of the monkey god".



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 Post subject: Re: Why don't all missionaries just fucking die? PostPosted: 2005-05-01 11:31am
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Perinquus wrote:
However, in the case of Joseph Smith and the Mormon faith, there is simply so much that can, absolutely and incontrovertibly, be definitively shown to be nonsense and falsehood, and this is so well attested in the historical and archaeological record, that I marvel that people can actually dismiss this veritable mountain of refuting evidence, and convince themselves that Mormonism is a valid belief. It's so obviously and demonstrably based on falsehoods and outright, bald faced lies, that one simply has to display an incredibly high degree of willful blindness to accept it as fact.


The same can be said of young-Earth creationists, though the science is less accessible.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-05-01 11:45am
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Ugh, this reminds me of my ex-assistant manager at work. He's a Baptist fundie, and a particularly ignorant one at that. He once had an argument with another atheist employee (who no longer works here) about abortion, and he used the classic "throwing your baby out a car window" analogy, only he didn't know it was an analogy. He meant it seriously. :roll: Anyway, he's studying for a ministry degree and wants to become a missionary, spreading the "Good Word" and all that. It's really not all that surprising, since he can't get a real degree given his demonstrated lack of intelligence and common sense. He somehow managed to get a 10 on his ACT (I got a 32, for comparison), which I didn't even know was possible without purposely giving the wrong answers. Also, the reason he's no longer the assistant manager is that he was too incompetant to handle the rather simple paperwork he had to do, so he got demoted to clerk last week. He's done nothing but complain about it since then, but still he insists that he doesn't really care about it. Yeah, right. :roll:



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-05-01 12:41pm
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Executor32 wrote:
Ugh, this reminds me of my ex-assistant manager at work. He's a Baptist fundie, and a particularly ignorant one at that. He once had an argument with another atheist employee (who no longer works here) about abortion, and he used the classic "throwing your baby out a car window" analogy, only he didn't know it was an analogy. He meant it seriously. :roll: Anyway, he's studying for a ministry degree and wants to become a missionary, spreading the "Good Word" and all that. It's really not all that surprising, since he can't get a real degree given his demonstrated lack of intelligence and common sense. He somehow managed to get a 10 on his ACT (I got a 32, for comparison), which I didn't even know was possible without purposely giving the wrong answers. Also, the reason he's no longer the assistant manager is that he was too incompetant to handle the rather simple paperwork he had to do, so he got demoted to clerk last week. He's done nothing but complain about it since then, but still he insists that he doesn't really care about it. Yeah, right. :roll


Man, that guy is a gem of shit-headedness. :D



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-05-01 12:46pm
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Terr Fangbite wrote:
Quote:
However, in the case of Joseph Smith and the Mormon faith, there is simply so much that can, absolutely and incontrovertibly, be definitively shown to be nonsense and falsehood, and this is so well attested in the historical and archaeological record, that I marvel that people can actually dismiss this veritable mountain of refuting evidence, and convince themselves that Mormonism is a valid belief. It's so obviously and demonstrably based on falsehoods and outright, bald faced lies, that one simply has to display an incredibly high degree of willful blindness to accept it as fact.


That or the "facts" given have as much backing to them as fundie's creation theory.

Excuse me, but what is fact is that the "history" of the peoples of North and South America given in the Book of Mormon is utter and complete balderdash. It's phony. There is no historical or archaeological evidence of any kind to support it. And it is utterly inconceivable that an entire Old World-type civilization could occupy these two continents and leave behind no artifacts of any kind. No buildings. No weapons. No tools. No potsherds. No written records. No coins. Nothing. Zilch. What's more, the historical and archaeological evidence that we do have for pre-columbian America utterly contradicts the "history" laid out in the Book of Mormon. That's a fact pal. The Book of Mormon is full of proven nonsense.

What is also fact -- hard, proven fact -- is that Joseph Smith's "translation" of the Book of Abraham, was completely phony as well. When the papyrus scrolls he "translated" were examined by real Egyptologists in the 20th century, they were found to be pagan Egyptian funerary scrolls, having nothing whatever to do with Abraham. Joseph Smith could no more read ancient Egyptian than he could flap his arms and fly to the moon. But that didn't stop him from claiming he could. He was a phony. A fraud. A liar. A con man. This is proved. The Book of Abraham was not a poor translation. It was an outright fabrication. He made it up. And since he is supposed to have "translated" the Book of Mormon in much the same way, one must suppose he most probably fabricated that as well.

These facts are matters of public record. If you can still believe that the Book of Mormon is true, and that Joseph Smith was a divinely inspired man with a true message in the face of these facts... Buddy, you're fooling yourself.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-05-01 12:50pm
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He was a phony. A fraud. A liar. A con man.


Although he clearly did con work (in the area of divination and treasure-seeking) and was arrested for it in 1826, I think the Book of Mormon was probably more of a "pious fraud" type of thing, where he was creating a false record to teach doctrine. The fact that he showed no hesitation in changing the accounts of how he got it is proof of that to me.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-05-01 12:58pm
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Virus-X Wannabe
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Guardsman Bass wrote:
Quote:
He was a phony. A fraud. A liar. A con man.


Although he clearly did con work (in the area of divination and treasure-seeking) and was arrested for it in 1826, I think the Book of Mormon was probably more of a "pious fraud" type of thing, where he was creating a false record to teach doctrine. The fact that he showed no hesitation in changing the accounts of how he got it is proof of that to me.

You may suppose that if you wish to accord him the benefit of doubt, and suppose that he really believed his own claims, and thus deceived himself as well as all of his followers. I am a little more suspicious. I think it entirely possible that he fabricated the whole thing, fully aware that it was all a pack of lies, because being a religious leader with a following gave him power, priveledge, and prestige. Those are all excellent motives for perpetrating such a fraud. And given that we know from his life before he founded the Mormon religion that he was a dishonest and deceitful man, it makes this all too likely.

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