warhammer 40,000 veses galactic empire (asimov)

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warhammer 40,000 veses galactic empire (asimov)

Post by starcraft » 2005-03-04 07:10pm

the galactic empire of Issiac Asimov's fondation series veses the forces of the forces of the 40k galaxy

how well will the empire do against

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Post by Gustav32Vasa » 2005-03-04 07:20pm

A little info on them would be nice?
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Post by Zor » 2005-03-04 07:55pm

IoM and the Lot of them become ash very quickly. A run of the Mill Asimov GE ship can destroy a planet.

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Post by Jalinth » 2005-03-04 08:51pm

You can't really do a vs for Asimov's one.

To my knowledge, no stories exist of the empire at its height. All of them are either before/at the very early stages of its existence, or after it has decayed and is dying.

Also, Asimov's verse isn't that ameniable to war stories. Descriptions of weapons are vague. A personal force shield is shown, but how powerful it is (it can stop a hand energy weapon) from close range.

Lastly, it is way too rational for a warhammer verse.

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Post by 18-Till-I-Die » 2005-03-04 08:56pm

While vague the weapons described, if taken literally, are very powerful. The atomic blasts (who cares what that means) can blow up a world...if they mean literally then each ship is like a mini Death Star, but going a few steps lower they could mean each ship is able to BDZ a planet so badly it would begin to break up after prolonged bombardment.

Either way weather interpited at the highest end or lowest it still outstrips nearly every WH40K race we've yet seen, except the Necrons/C'tan perhaps. Plus they rule, if i recall, hundreds of millions of worlds. More than any race in the 40 verse.

I think it's not to unreasonable to say this would be a prety quick win for the Trantor GE.
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Post by Gustav32Vasa » 2005-03-04 09:00pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:While vague the weapons described, if taken literally, are very powerful. The atomic blasts (who cares what that means) can blow up a world...if they mean literally then each ship is like a mini Death Star, but going a few steps lower they could mean each ship is able to BDZ a planet so badly it would begin to break up after prolonged bombardment.

Either way weather interpited at the highest end or lowest it still outstrips nearly every WH40K race we've yet seen, except the Necrons/C'tan perhaps. Plus they rule, if i recall, hundreds of millions of worlds. More than any race in the 40 verse.

I think it's not to unreasonable to say this would be a prety quick win for the Trantor GE.
And dont forget that at all time 10,000 capital warships guard Trantor.
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Post by Junghalli » 2005-03-05 03:32pm

Foundation>SW Empire>IoM.
I'm skeptical about Foundationverse ships actually being able to blow up planets (enough atom blasts to blow a planet could just mean destroy all life on the planet, not disintegrate the planet itself), but this would still be a severe mismatch.
Full power Necrons might be able to destroy the Foundation though.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2005-03-05 09:27pm

We dont really know much about the capabilities of the Foundationverse, offensively and defensively. Moreover, in cases like firepower there are other complications (like non-DET effects being associated with the weapons like the "atom blasts") I tend to think that the Foundationverse firepower (at least) tends to be greatly exaggerated.

Moreover, with what I've been seeing/learning of the WH40K tech, its not neccearily a given that the Trantorian Empire neccesarily will steamroll them either.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2005-03-05 09:28pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:We dont really know much about the capabilities of the Foundationverse, offensively and defensively. Moreover, in cases like firepower there are other complications (like non-DET effects being associated with the weapons like the "atom blasts") I tend to think that the Foundationverse firepower (at least) tends to be greatly exaggerated.

Moreover, with what I've been seeing/learning of the WH40K tech, its not neccearily a given that the Trantorian Empire neccesarily will steamroll them either.
The real question about WH40K comes into how the "mystical/psychic" aspects of 40K stack up against what little "mystical" stuff is present in the Foundation universe (mentalics like the Second Foundation, Gaia/Galaxia, etc.)

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Post by Hawkwings » 2005-03-05 11:38pm

well... galaxia is an entire galaxy... I'd say that would steamroll over pretty much anything.

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Post by Murazor » 2005-03-06 11:15am

The Galactic Empire has better FTL than the Imperium (although almost certainly inferior to Necron), superior industrial output and a far bigger resource base. In all likelyhood ground engagements go all the way for the 40k factions, at least initially, while the orbital "Giskards" should provide some protection against Chaos (even if planets like Madder Loss, Ktlina or, perhaps, Terminus itself will be soon attracted by the lure of Chaos).

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Post by NecronLord » 2005-03-06 11:27am

Murazor wrote:(although almost certainly inferior to Necron)
Every FTL this side of the Time Lords is inferior to the Necron Drives. :wink:
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Post by Gustav32Vasa » 2005-03-06 11:43am

NecronLord wrote:
Murazor wrote:(although almost certainly inferior to Necron)
Every FTL this side of the Time Lords is inferior to the Necron Drives. :wink:
FFs ftl drive is instantaneous. It takes time for them to move away from gravity fields to make a safe jump.
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Post by NecronLord » 2005-03-06 11:45am

Gustav32Vasa wrote:FFs ftl drive is instantaneous. It takes time for them to move away from gravity fields to make a safe jump.
It also has a range limitation, last I heard. In comparison, a Necron ship can cross the galaxy in half a second, and with a target painted, appear within 30,000 kilometers and come in firing.
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Post by Gustav32Vasa » 2005-03-06 11:51am

NecronLord wrote:
Gustav32Vasa wrote:FFs ftl drive is instantaneous. It takes time for them to move away from gravity fields to make a safe jump.
It also has a range limitation, last I heard. In comparison, a Necron ship can cross the galaxy in half a second, and with a target painted, appear within 30,000 kilometers and come in firing.
You're right, if the pilot is playing it safe it has limits. In the first jump capable ship they jumped 2 million ly.
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Post by Junghalli » 2005-03-06 04:46pm

Murazor wrote:The Galactic Empire has better FTL than the Imperium (although almost certainly inferior to Necron), superior industrial output and a far bigger resource base.
Agree on all counts. Depending on which estimates of the size of the Empire you use the Foundationverse GE has 25 to several hundred times the number of worlds as the IoM. Not sure what the power of the weapons is, but supposedly a typical Foundationverse warship can at least destroy all life on a planet.
Murazor wrote:In all likelyhood ground engagements go all the way for the 40k factions, at least initially, while the orbital "Giskards" should provide some protection against Chaos (even if planets like Madder Loss, Ktlina or, perhaps, Terminus itself will be soon attracted by the lure of Chaos).
Funny, cause the Foundationverse already has its own equivalent of Chaos Gods (the Chaos virus). The Giskards may provide partial protection from being corrupted, but I doubt they'll be completely effective. They can't even fully contain the Chaos Virus, which is a good deal less scary than the Chaos Gods. I'm seeing mass subversions happening very quickly.
The robots should be OK, since their fanatical devotion to human welfare will keep them from being corrupted. Gaia will also be fine, for the same reason as the Tyrannids, their hive mind will protect them. Almost a pity, cause God I hate Gaia... fucking Borg lite... :evil:

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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-03-06 06:38pm

The robots should be OK, since their fanatical devotion to human welfare will keep them from being corrupted.
That's hardly a full-proof defense from Tzeentch and Slaanesh. Or Khorne even, if human welfare means war is necessary (like it does in 40k).
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Post by Junghalli » 2005-03-07 01:33am

JediNeophyte wrote:That's hardly a full-proof defense from Tzeentch and Slaanesh. Or Khorne even, if human welfare means war is necessary (like it does in 40k).
Isn't devotion to some higher cause supposed to be a defense against Chaos, hence the reason the IoM zealously enforces worship of the Emperor? :?
Well, the First Law is that a robot cannot harm a human being or by inaction allow a human being to ever come to harm... and the goal of the Chaos Gods is the extinction of all mortal life. Those goals seem rather incompatible, and a robot experiences physical pain at the mere thought of breaking one of the Three Laws. Then again, there's at least one instance where a robot had the Laws wiped from its programming, so it's probably not beyond a Chaos God's capacity.

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Post by weemadando » 2005-03-07 02:20am

Junghalli wrote: Well, the First Law is that a robot cannot harm a human being or by inaction allow a human being to ever come to harm... and the goal of the Chaos Gods is the extinction of all mortal life. Those goals seem rather incompatible, and a robot experiences physical pain at the mere thought of breaking one of the Three Laws. Then again, there's at least one instance where a robot had the Laws wiped from its programming, so it's probably not beyond a Chaos God's capacity.
No - the Chaos Gods are usually very happy with humans, because humans do stupid, selfish and other assorted shit that makes them more powerful...

Corruption, not destruction is the aim of the Chaos Gods.

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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-03-07 04:28am

Junghalli wrote:Isn't devotion to some higher cause supposed to be a defense against Chaos, hence the reason the IoM zealously enforces worship of the Emperor? :?
Well, the First Law is that a robot cannot harm a human being or by inaction allow a human being to ever come to harm... and the goal of the Chaos Gods is the extinction of all mortal life. Those goals seem rather incompatible, and a robot experiences physical pain at the mere thought of breaking one of the Three Laws. Then again, there's at least one instance where a robot had the Laws wiped from its programming, so it's probably not beyond a Chaos God's capacity.
It is potentially a defense, yes. Note my wording: it is not a fool-proof defense. And as Ando pointed out Chaos isn't out to just kill everything (except for Khorne, maybe). And staging a scenario that creates a conflict with the first law would be child's play for Tzeentch and Slaanesh; A simple terrorist lose-lose situation, for instance:

Either A) Commit some act against human welfare (e.g., blow up a public service building), or B) Terrorists will kill x group of hostages.

Pretty standard low-blow guilt tactics. This is just one example, I'm sure T&S can up with other crazy stuff.
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Post by Murazor » 2005-03-07 11:46am

NecronLord wrote:It also has a range limitation, last I heard. In comparison, a Necron ship can cross the galaxy in half a second, and with a target painted, appear within 30,000 kilometers and come in firing.
Not so much a range limitation as a problem with jump accuracy: unless you jump really far away from any meaningful mass (as in billions of kilometers away), your final position cannot be accurately predicted before the jump. Jumps made within gravity wells while possible are wildly inaccurate and although jumps of millions of ly are possible, they seem to demand an staggering ammount of calculations. Sustained hyperspace speeds were, IIRC, around 300,000-1,000,000c (according to Trevize in Foundation's Edge and Seldon's trip in Forward the Foundation). The Worm Nest is faster, but by the time of Seldon it was falling apart due to lack of maintenance. And the Keys of Perihelion are almost certainly a completely forgotten technology at this point.

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Post by Junghalli » 2005-03-07 01:27pm

JediNeophyte wrote:It is potentially a defense, yes. Note my wording: it is not a fool-proof defense. And as Ando pointed out Chaos isn't out to just kill everything (except for Khorne, maybe). And staging a scenario that creates a conflict with the first law would be child's play for Tzeentch and Slaanesh; A simple terrorist lose-lose situation, for instance.
True enough, though I submit they'd be harder to subvert than most human beings. The scenario you gave me would probably result in most robots dying of First Law/First Law programming conflict.
I figure Galactic Empire would defeat any of the 40K powers militarily (unless the Necrons all woke up, in which they'd be screwed), but in a year that galaxy is going to be a mess of Chaos subversions. Long term the GE will be very lucky to survive, and even if it does the galaxy is going to become a highly unpleasant place.
Normally I loathe the idea of Galaxia with every fiber of my being, but it actually doesn't seem to bad now. Combining the entire galactic population into one big hive mind would make things very hard for the Chaos Gods if the Tyrannids are any indication.

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Post by NecronLord » 2005-03-07 01:41pm

Junghalli wrote:Combining the entire galactic population into one big hive mind would make things very hard for the Chaos Gods if the Tyrannids are any indication.
The Inquisition explored that option. It creates a new, nastier, chaos god.
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Post by Junghalli » 2005-03-07 01:53pm

I guess that wouldn't work very well then. Oh well, the concept of Galaxia always made me want to puke anyway. Yes, we'll unify the galaxy into one giant hive mind... so you can have quadrillions of people in your head for your whole life... trust us, you want miss your privacy and free will at all... Fucking hippie Borg. :evil:

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Post by NecronLord » 2005-03-07 02:00pm

I should say, a splinter faction of the Inquisition explored the idea. When the main group got wind of it, they didn't live long.
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