The Empire in WH40k

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The Empire in WH40k

Post by fgalkin » 2005-01-25 03:50am

Inspired by the other thread (which I do follow closely, despite my lack of participation). By an act of Q, the worlds of Imperium of Man are replaced by a similar nubmer of worlds from the Galactic Empire. Each world is replaced by a similar world from SW, that is a hive planet will be replaced by a city plantet from SW, an agricultural world will be replaced by a low tech world, etc. Coruscant replaces Terra. The Empire's entire military is present in this scenario, including the Death Stars and other uberweapons. The Rebellion is left behind in the old galaxy, although any rebel sympathasers on GE planets would be transported with them.

So, how does the GE fare against the Imperium's traditional enemies?

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Post by Shinova » 2005-01-25 03:58am

Well there's the whole issue of whether Chaos' influence does or doesn't start corrupting citizens left and right, since SW citizens are more lax in their lives than 40k's are.
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-01-25 03:59am

The whole psyker/force thing needs to be sorted out. Psychic powers can have signifigant effects on the battlefield, so this isn't a trivial concern. And the dangers of the warp isn't insignifigant either.

But they would have the most powerful spacefleet in existence. Crossing the galaxy in days instead of a year plus is a huge advantage over everybody but the Necrons. The size and power of the Imperial fleet would dwarf every other power combined.

Organizationally, they would be far superior to the semi-feudal IoM, which would allow for a superior ability to react to problems and cocentrate their forces. Superior FTL would enhance that edge.

Star Wars has vastly superior industrial capabilities.

On the ground, they would be roughly equal, but with all the advantages previously stated (like owning the high ground, lots of top of the line equipment).

I see the only hiccup being the possilbe psychic/warp angle. And this could be a big one. Having enslavers turning human beings into warp portals on half the planets in the empire and then psychicly enslaving everything once they arrive in the material universe is not something to be laughed off.

Other than the psychic/warp stuff, the Galactic Empire will dominate.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2005-01-25 04:17am

Even assuming Palpy can sub for the Emperor, Chaos will (literally, in some cases) eat the Empire alive. As Tarkin said, fear keeps the local systems in line (as opposed to faith and brainwashing in the Imperium). The Chaos Gods are much, much, much, much scarier than the most twisted Sith Lord.

The military power will keep the other factions in check - but when half those Star Destroyers decide Chaos is the better path, things'll get ugly. It's the Horus Heresy all over - or, rather, the Vader Heresy. Horus:Emperor::Vader:Palpatine, almost disturbingly so. The only difference is that Palpatine doesn't have any personal feelings to get in the way, but nor is he nearly as powerful as the Emperor. With Vader the avatar of the Ruinous Powers, it could very well swing the other way. Palpatine is the superior strategist, however... so who knows.
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Post by Shinova » 2005-01-25 04:41am

Or maybe the Necrons decide to wake up (I heard they could probably kick the Empire over. Or maybe the C'Tans do it)
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2005-01-25 06:06am

NecronLord addressed a Necron versus Galactic Empire possibility in another thread awhile back. He favoured the Empire if IIRC. The C'tan are badass and will be a problem, but they aren't omnipotent.

They also suffer from space combat weakness. Having the most badass ships in 40K still means they aren't the equal to Star Wars. And the Empire has a lot of Star Destroyers.
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2005-01-25 07:25am

From what I've seen...they can sub only for so much. Like stated, they will have space superiority and industrial and while the Chaos gods are scarier, the Empire has a quicker means of expunging the whole "So your plant believe in Chaos do you?"

Overall for the short period they would do well...now as for a protracted war...the biggest problem as stated are Psykers(Jedi aren't nearly as prolific nor as numerous...before we go into powre sets) and the Chaos deal. Palpatine could play the part, but I doubt he could sub nearly as well.

As for a Vader heresy...please let's get real. The Emperor of Man loved and cherished Horus...Palpatine view Vader the same way a parrot views the water bowl. It serves a single purpose...that's it.
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Post by Petrosjko » 2005-01-25 10:01am

Ghost Rider wrote:As for a Vader heresy...please let's get real. The Emperor of Man loved and cherished Horus...Palpatine view Vader the same way a parrot views the water bowl. It serves a single purpose...that's it.
Vader enhanced by chaos mutations would eat Palpatine for breakfast, quite likely. Especially if RotS is going to clearly establish the upper limits on Palpy's powers and eliminate the force storms and other EU Palp-wankery.

Avoiding a direct confrontation- were Vader to go, he quite likely could take a significant portion of the fleet with him. Even ten percent would be enough to raise some real hell, especially if they can launch assaults from the relative safety of the Eye of Terror.

BDZing chaos-infested worlds could actually be counterproductive if the deaths are used to feed the various daemons of the warp.

And the biggest issue is corruption of the Imperial Navy. The Imperial Navy doesn't have an equivalent to the Imperium's Commissariat to monitor its forces for signs of deviancy.

Frankly, I don't think they could get up to speed in time to keep from being torn asunder from within.

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Post by Ghost Rider » 2005-01-25 10:05am

Petrosjko wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:As for a Vader heresy...please let's get real. The Emperor of Man loved and cherished Horus...Palpatine view Vader the same way a parrot views the water bowl. It serves a single purpose...that's it.
Vader enhanced by chaos mutations would eat Palpatine for breakfast, quite likely. Especially if RotS is going to clearly establish the upper limits on Palpy's powers and eliminate the force storms and other EU Palp-wankery.

Avoiding a direct confrontation- were Vader to go, he quite likely could take a significant portion of the fleet with him. Even ten percent would be enough to raise some real hell, especially if they can launch assaults from the relative safety of the Eye of Terror.

BDZing chaos-infested worlds could actually be counterproductive if the deaths are used to feed the various daemons of the warp.

And the biggest issue is corruption of the Imperial Navy. The Imperial Navy doesn't have an equivalent to the Imperium's Commissariat to monitor its forces for signs of deviancy.

Frankly, I don't think they could get up to speed in time to keep from being torn asunder from within.
That's true, but Palps is so paranoid, he keeps destruct codes for everything.

Literally someone forments true rebellion, they'd find out they are on a giant ticking bomb.

And No BDZ needed...just literally target cities or if buildings are known...target those instead.(Boith are confirmed in HTTE for accuracy of ISD guns)

And as for deviancy they do have the Ubiq. Which is nearly as nasty and dark and serve the Emperor purely fueled by belief he's (Take your pick of bestest being ever)

As for Chaos Enhanced Vader...yeah, but that's also saying itf it goes directly like the Horus heresy, which I find extrememly unlikely given Palps is really the better target.
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Post by White Haven » 2005-01-25 10:30am

Still, there IS no deep core of faith to protect anyone, OR any sort of a benevolent emperor, before or after semideath. I don't see the Imperial Navy remaining...Imperial for too long, at least not enough of it to stem the tide against their own traitors. Any opinions on Thrawn's likelihood of corruption?
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2005-01-25 10:32am

White Haven wrote:Still, there IS no deep core of faith to protect anyone, OR any sort of a benevolent emperor, before or after semideath. I don't see the Imperial Navy remaining...Imperial for too long, at least not enough of it to stem the tide against their own traitors. Any opinions on Thrawn's likelihood of corruption?
Thrawn, probably not...but as for the Empire as a whole. I can see it happening, because they are for the most in the higher ranks not exactly doing it for king and country.
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Post by Stormbringer » 2005-01-25 10:38am

Once Palpatine starts making deal with and/or starts being corrupted by the Chaos Powers it's all over. Shit hits the fan and the galaxy dies horribly. With no power comparable to the Emperor to protect them the Galatic Empire is deeply screwed.

And a daemon is going to make mincemeat out of the average jedi. And they don't die.
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Post by White Haven » 2005-01-25 10:40am

Heh. The Thrawn Heresy...only it's the Emperor that's corrupted by Chaos. Too bad I can't write all too well, that'd make an awesome story.
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Post by Petrosjko » 2005-01-25 10:44am

Ghost Rider wrote:That's true, but Palps is so paranoid, he keeps destruct codes for everything.

Literally someone forments true rebellion, they'd find out they are on a giant ticking bomb.
True. But his security measures would be matching up with a whole new spectrum of threats for which they literally could not be prepared. It's something I've pointed out when people have tried to gin up alternate governments in 40K in the past, usually 'kinder, gentler' fanwank bullshit that gets along with aliens and has progressive technology.

The problem is, chaos is more of a corrosive than a blunt force weapon. Palpatine's security would literally be having to covering every potential threat vector in the Empire, from the military to logistics to manufacturing to civilians. Now I know that his security people already do that, but that's against the threats found in a GFFA, not in the 40Kverse. The time it takes to retrain and redirect his security apparatus will be lethal, because chaos will have their hooks in by then. And Tzeentch especially is capable of letting schemes lie dormant for very long periods of time before activating them. Taken over the span of a decade or two, corrupted manufacturing facilities can come up with a reasonably-sized force of ships that are totally beyond any inbuilt security protocols as favored by Palps, to take your example.

And the followers of Chaos are very well versed in dealing with paranoids of Palpatine-esque proportions.
And No BDZ needed...just literally target cities or if buildings are known...target those instead.(Boith are confirmed in HTTE for accuracy of ISD guns)
No argument on the accuracy, but chaos cults are quite capable of dispersing enough to make surgical strikes ineffectual. Furthermore, they're also fully capable of playing double-blinds and wooling local commanders into taking potshots at their own establishments because of a suspected infiltration. The sort of rabidly unsettled paranoia that sort of activity would create feeds their agenda quite nicely.
And as for deviancy they do have the Ubiq. Which is nearly as nasty and dark and serve the Emperor purely fueled by belief he's (Take your pick of bestest being ever)
For the sake of argument we'll say that this gives them something akin to the resistance that true faith in the Emperor of 40K can grant. But the fact is that the Imperium and chaos have been playing tag for ten thousand years, evolving to match each other. The Ubiqtorate just won't have time to catch up. For example, the standard method of testing for daemonic possession in 40K involves examination by psykers, extended brutal torture, and occasionally contact with holy relics. What can the Ubiqtorate do in that regard? So they're left with guesswork.

Additionally, 40K ships have another layer of security in the form of the astropaths whose primary function is intersteller communication. But they also serve to detect hostile warp influences acting upon a vessel. The Empire has nothing that matches that capability at the start of this scenario, and it would take them an immense amount of trial and error to produce an equivalent.
As for Chaos Enhanced Vader...yeah, but that's also saying itf it goes directly like the Horus heresy, which I find extrememly unlikely given Palps is really the better target.
Palpy may be the better target, though by the time of the GE his ego may be too large to truly accept any form of subservience. But they'll both be targeted for conversion, likely by multiple chaos entities, and if they both toss over the chaos, they could even end up in direct conflict as a result.

(Which would be a hell of a brawl to watch.)

In the short run, the GE is unstoppable in just about any reasonable vs. 40K scenario. But the learning curve is just too steep for them to hack it on the long term.

One aside to this scenario. Of the chaos gods, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh would do just fine in this transition, but Nurgle would be well and truly fucked by the vastly superior level of medical technology available to the GE.

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Post by NecronLord » 2005-01-25 10:49am

Imperial Overlord wrote:NecronLord addressed a Necron versus Galactic Empire possibility in another thread awhile back. He favoured the Empire if IIRC. The C'tan are badass and will be a problem, but they aren't omnipotent.

They also suffer from space combat weakness. Having the most badass ships in 40K still means they aren't the equal to Star Wars. And the Empire has a lot of Star Destroyers.
Actually, the only true necron warship ever shown would likely eat an ISD and shit out Acclamators IMO. It held its own for several minutes against the combined armarda of every sentient race in the galaxy. Unfortunately (for the Nightbringer) the Imperium has the beacon to summon it from the warp.

It's lack of evidence about the full power of the necron empire that is the problem. We know that the ships in BFG aren't a war fleet, they're the equivalent of farm machinery, but we don't have the means to quantify what those fleets look like, or if they have stashed any real warships (I would expect so, but it's unknown if they really did, and if they survived)

And for the record, Eldar can cross the galaxy at about the same speed as the Empire, they just need a portal in the destination system.
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Post by NecronLord » 2005-01-25 10:50am

Petrosjko wrote:One aside to this scenario. Of the chaos gods, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh would do just fine in this transition, but Nurgle would be well and truly fucked by the vastly superior level of medical technology available to the GE.
SW has its own diseases. He could manage with them.
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Post by White Haven » 2005-01-25 10:51am

Which would give Nurgle an incredible incentive to ally with someone and ram this upstart Empire straight into the ground. Allied Chaos Gods...that never ends well.
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Post by Stormbringer » 2005-01-25 03:03pm

NecronLord wrote:
Petrosjko wrote:One aside to this scenario. Of the chaos gods, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh would do just fine in this transition, but Nurgle would be well and truly fucked by the vastly superior level of medical technology available to the GE.
SW has its own diseases. He could manage with them.
True but rarely the sort of pandemic level plagues that Nurgle induces and thrives on.
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Post by Crom » 2005-01-25 03:40pm

I don't understand one thing: Is it assumed that psykers and Force-users are one and the same?

And is the Emperor briefed on the situation before his worlds get placed in the WH40k universe? The Emperor is an immensely powerful being of his own right, I would wonder if, given time and preparation, he might have some nasty surprises for the Chaos Gods.

Is it possible for him to pull a John Constantine? Take what he wants from the Chaos Gods and then screw him over?

It seems like it would be in the Empires' best interest to do what the Necrons have been trying to do and cut the Warp off from reality.
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Post by Kuja » 2005-01-25 03:52pm

Stormbringer wrote:
NecronLord wrote:
Petrosjko wrote:One aside to this scenario. Of the chaos gods, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh would do just fine in this transition, but Nurgle would be well and truly fucked by the vastly superior level of medical technology available to the GE.
SW has its own diseases. He could manage with them.
True but rarely the sort of pandemic level plagues that Nurgle induces and thrives on.
Nurgle would have a ball with stuff like Krytos and blastenecrosis.
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Post by SirNitram » 2005-01-25 04:02pm

Despite having superior technology, none of the excesses of corruption of the Imperium, and a coherent military, the Empire's going to get eaten alive, sure...

While the Necron's ancient warfleets of Yestermileenia will probably do Nasty Things(tm) to the Empire, they don't seem to be using those much these days.

Of course, it's worth noting that the psychic potential of the Empire will probably not go to any of the Chaos Gods.. They just don't engage in the behavior that seems to funnel to them. Though I don't know if the sort of soul-crushing Order that the Empire represents would necessarily be a better Warp-Entity to be feeding...
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Post by NecronLord » 2005-01-25 04:40pm

SirNitram wrote:While the Necron's ancient warfleets of Yestermileenia will probably do Nasty Things(tm) to the Empire, they don't seem to be using those much these days.
They almost certainly don't exist.

As for corruption. Bull Shit. A good portion of the Empire's entire heirachy is exactly the type that would turn to chaos. Not to smart, weak willed, with ambitions the governmet will never grant them (Tarkin would be an ideal candidate, as would any of the Moffs we see in the EU). Corruption in the way we mean it is pandemic. Hell, the Commander of the Elite Death Squadron itself got his appointment by nepotism.
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Post by NecronLord » 2005-01-25 04:47pm

Crom wrote:I don't understand one thing: Is it assumed that psykers and Force-users are one and the same?

And is the Emperor briefed on the situation before his worlds get placed in the WH40k universe? The Emperor is an immensely powerful being of his own right, I would wonder if, given time and preparation, he might have some nasty surprises for the Chaos Gods.
Err. He's not comparable. His most absurd EU wankery (To be decanonised in RotS by all accounts) devastated a continent. The very words of one of Tzeench's highest servants in conversation destroyed a contenient (The Grey Knigts novel) Tzeench himself is an order of mangnitude above that.

Is it possible for him to pull a John Constantine? Take what he wants from the Chaos Gods and then screw him over?
Who?

It seems like it would be in the Empires' best interest to do what the Necrons have been trying to do and cut the Warp off from reality.
The necrons have the technology to change the laws of physics on the universal level, quite literally Godlike stuff. The Empire... doesn't.
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Post by DocHorror » 2005-01-25 05:20pm

Is it possible for him to pull a John Constantine? Take what he wants from the Chaos Gods and then screw him over?

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Post by Guardsman Bass » 2005-01-25 05:22pm

Since the Empire will get torn apart by Chaos, perhaps it would be better to posit a scenario in which only the rare force-users can get targeted by chaos, or where humanity is completely sealed from warp influence on human minds. Psychic power wouldn't harm them, but it wouldn't help them, either. They'd be sort of like a gigantic equivalent to the Tau.
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