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 Post subject: Canada-The Know it all Neighbour PostPosted: 2004-05-11 03:39am
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Macleans story

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When Paul Martin and George W. Bush sit down at the White House this week for their first extended summit, Canadians shouldn't hold their breath for significant trade deals, cross-border accords, or even mealy-mouthed memorandums of understanding. With the relationship between Canada and the United States plunging toward a historic nadir, the Prime Minister will be lucky to walk away with a nice photo and a souvenir pen.


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It's more than the deep divisions over Iraq, or the Canadian public's palpable distaste for a Yalie cowboy and his conservative politics. Suddenly, there's a meanness to our day-to-day interactions. We harass American flag-waving school kids, and boo their national anthem at hockey games. Promises to stand "shoulder to shoulder" after the Sept. 11 attacks have been overshadowed by epithets like "moron" and "bastards." Symptoms of a declining friendship are everywhere you look.



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An exclusive new Maclean's poll probing what Canadians and Americans really think of each other shows this new sense of animus is disproportionately centred north of the border. Sixty-eight per cent of Canadians say the U.S.'s global reputation has worsened over the last decade, while 38 per cent of us say we feel more negatively about America since Sept. 11 (the biggest reasons cited -- the Iraq war and George W. Bush). Asked to pick the word that best describes our neighbours to the south, the No. 1 response was "arrogant," with "patriotic" (not necessarily a compliment) close behind. More of us say Americans are "dangerous" than "compassionate." And even though a majority would be willing to immediately commit Canadian troops to defend the U.S. in the event of another attack, only 44 per cent of us "strongly support" the idea.

On the flip side, most Americans remain indifferent to the insults and jibes floating across the border. Despite more than two years of high-level political conflict, and the best attempts of talk-radio foamers to lump Canada together with "socialist weenies" of Old Europe, 74 per cent of U.S. respondents say their opinion of our country remains unchanged. Twelve per cent say they think less of us, while an equal number say they like us more. A quarter of Americans think Canada's global reputation has improved, while 60 per cent say it has stayed the same. Their word of choice for their northern neighbours is "tolerant"; "compassionate" and "funny" are also high on the list. And an overwhelming majority would put their troops in harm's way to help us, with 60 per cent strongly supporting the idea.


Quote:
Truth be told, many Canadians take a certain pride in raising such American ire. If we can't always compete with the proprietors of the world's most powerful economy and military, we reserve the right to thumb our noses at them. It's a beery brand of nationalism -- loud-mouthed flag-waving coupled with a Ned Flanders preachiness -- that risks becoming as stale as a Sunday morning barroom. The type of patriotic fervour we once professed to loathe is now one of our trademarks, and co-opted to sell everything from Molson's suds, to Tim Hortons donuts, to Petro-Canada gasoline. Our obsessive need to poke and prod every aspect of our relationship with the U.S. infects our books, cinema, music and media -- including, obviously, this very magazine. It's tempting to call it our greatest cultural rivalry -- except that, technically speaking, the other party should know that you're competing with them.


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The relationship between Canada and the United States is far more complex than how its leaders, or even its governments, get along. Millions of people traverse the border each month for work, vacations or simply to visit family. It's a peculiar kinship that has survived more than 200 years of ups and downs, boundary kerfuffles, trade disputes, even a war. But the findings of this Maclean's poll -- sustained indifference on one side, and a growing animosity on the other -- suggest even greater challenges ahead. We've long needed them more than they need us. Martin's summit with Bush is front-page news here at home. In an America that's grappling with foreign wars and domestic fears, its likely to be a brief at the back of the A-section. What Canadians may well ask themselves is how much further down the depth chart of friends they're willing to fall.


Any Canadians care to comment? Is the author on to something or is this similar to the hot air that Time often puts out down here?



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 06:59am
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so, in summary, we still like them just the same as we always have, but they are pissed at us..... with the bulk of their disdain growing out of diferences in middle east policy. :shrugs: Doesn't change my opinion... i've been to Canada twice in the past 3 years and the people i've met were nice and friendly, and politics never came up once. I think polls like this do nothing more than stir the pot and feed whatever animosity might exist. And Bill O'Rielly doesn't help either.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 11:05am
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If their jibes dismay us, we shall conquer them I say! Conquer!



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 01:06pm
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I think "antipathy" is overstating things just a bit. Yes, differences exist, but some of these are for other reasons and not just mid-east policy. At least for Canada, the term "policy" is overstating the government's coherency on the issue - they've meandered back and forth so much that I have no idea what they really want.

For Canadians, the softwood lumber, steel, and various other trade dispute really hit home and cause severe dislike. For Americans, Canada's protectist dairy,eggs, and a few other areas really bug them (while Canada is less protectionist than most, we are still guilty of it some areas). Also, Canada's tendency to be preachy doesn't help - especially when we don't really ante up on the military side of the equation.

Also, if America tries to conquer us, we'll just give your troops some real beer when they arrive- then y'all be singing the "Maple Leaf Forever" as your new national anthem :P

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 01:06pm
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sounds like the standard BS they wheel out over here about relations between the British and the French whenever they go off on one regarding beef.....



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 Post subject: Re: Canada-The Know it all Neighbour PostPosted: 2004-05-11 01:21pm
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I'm Canadian and I'll comment.

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When Paul Martin and George W. Bush sit down at the White House this week for their first extended summit, Canadians shouldn't hold their breath for significant trade deals, cross-border accords, or even mealy-mouthed memorandums of understanding. With the relationship between Canada and the United States plunging toward a historic nadir, the Prime Minister will be lucky to walk away with a nice photo and a souvenir pen.


The point is to try and mend some of the fences between us, not to solve all our problems in one sitting.

Quote:
It's more than the deep divisions over Iraq, or the Canadian public's palpable distaste for a Yalie cowboy and his conservative politics. Suddenly, there's a meanness to our day-to-day interactions. We harass American flag-waving school kids, and boo their national anthem at hockey games. Promises to stand "shoulder to shoulder" after the Sept. 11 attacks have been overshadowed by epithets like "moron" and "bastards." Symptoms of a declining friendship are everywhere you look.


As far as I know the booing of the anthem occured in Quebec. Don't judge all Canadians by the example set by the French. They think that everyone else is somehow less "cultured" then them just because they speak French and have forgotten what anti-persperant is. The "morons" and "bastards" comments were the result of the politicians personal opinions being publicised, opinions that should be kept to themselves when in the public eye, otherwise they risk being seen as the opinions of all Canadians.

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An exclusive new Maclean's poll probing what Canadians and Americans really think of each other shows this new sense of animus is disproportionately centred north of the border. Sixty-eight per cent of Canadians say the U.S.'s global reputation has worsened over the last decade, while 38 per cent of us say we feel more negatively about America since Sept. 11 (the biggest reasons cited -- the Iraq war and George W. Bush). Asked to pick the word that best describes our neighbours to the south, the No. 1 response was "arrogant," with "patriotic" (not necessarily a compliment) close behind. More of us say Americans are "dangerous" than "compassionate." And even though a majority would be willing to immediately commit Canadian troops to defend the U.S. in the event of another attack, only 44 per cent of us "strongly support" the idea.


Well what can I say about US Global opinion. It certainly has gotten worse since the war in Iraq. George Bush has managed to turn over whelming support into hatred and distrust through what other nations see as deception. I think that most Canadians didn't support the war on Iraqi because of the circumvention of the UN and the belief that Saddam posed no threat to the US. We do however support your war on terrorism and have contributed troops to that cause. I wouldn't describe Americans as arrogant, more like confidant. When your the worlds only super-power than you have that right. It's worth noting however that alot of Canadians see your governmet officials as arrogant,ie: Donnie Rumsfeld and GW Bush. I would support sending more troops to OP Apollo (our name for the war on terror) if we had more to spare, but we're maxed out. And there's nothing wrong with being patriotic provided that it doesn't blind you to the truth.

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On the flip side, most Americans remain indifferent to the insults and jibes floating across the border. Despite more than two years of high-level political conflict, and the best attempts of talk-radio foamers to lump Canada together with "socialist weenies" of Old Europe, 74 per cent of U.S. respondents say their opinion of our country remains unchanged. Twelve per cent say they think less of us, while an equal number say they like us more. A quarter of Americans think Canada's global reputation has improved, while 60 per cent say it has stayed the same. Their word of choice for their northern neighbours is "tolerant"; "compassionate" and "funny" are also high on the list. And an overwhelming majority would put their troops in harm's way to help us, with 60 per cent strongly supporting the idea.


It's nice to know that the American people still like Canada despite the differences between our two governments. And it's nice to know that they are willing to honour the defense treaties that exist between us.

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Truth be told, many Canadians take a certain pride in raising such American ire. If we can't always compete with the proprietors of the world's most powerful economy and military, we reserve the right to thumb our noses at them. It's a beery brand of nationalism -- loud-mouthed flag-waving coupled with a Ned Flanders preachiness -- that risks becoming as stale as a Sunday morning barroom. The type of patriotic fervour we once professed to loathe is now one of our trademarks, and co-opted to sell everything from Molson's suds, to Tim Hortons donuts, to Petro-Canada gasoline. Our obsessive need to poke and prod every aspect of our relationship with the U.S. infects our books, cinema, music and media -- including, obviously, this very magazine. It's tempting to call it our greatest cultural rivalry -- except that, technically speaking, the other party should know that you're competing with them.


I really don't know what to say about this.

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Any Canadians care to comment? Is the author on to something or is this similar to the hot air that Time often puts out down here?


I think that this is mostly hot air. The dislike that most Canadians I know have for the US is really directed more at their government than the US citizens themselves.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 01:26pm
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Jalinth wrote:
Also, Canada's tendency to be preachy doesn't help - especially when we don't really ante up on the military side of the equation.


We don't ante up on the military side because we can't. The Liberal government has systematically gutted the Canadian Armed Forces. I know because I've witnessed it first hand. Trust me the US asks for us for a reason, we may be small but we are well trained and have alot of heart. We did after all contribute troops and ships to Afghanistan, to the extent that our manpower limitations would allow.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 03:12pm
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Cpl Kendall wrote:
Jalinth wrote:
Also, Canada's tendency to be preachy doesn't help - especially when we don't really ante up on the military side of the equation.


We don't ante up on the military side because we can't. The Liberal government has systematically gutted the Canadian Armed Forces. I know because I've witnessed it first hand. Trust me the US asks for us for a reason, we may be small but we are well trained and have alot of heart. We did after all contribute troops and ships to Afghanistan, to the extent that our manpower limitations would allow.


Don't forget the money they wasted on 4 old shitty British subs,like we need submarines :roll:



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 03:14pm
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Cpl Kendall wrote:
Jalinth wrote:
Also, Canada's tendency to be preachy doesn't help - especially when we don't really ante up on the military side of the equation.


We don't ante up on the military side because we can't. The Liberal government has systematically gutted the Canadian Armed Forces. I know because I've witnessed it first hand. Trust me the US asks for us for a reason, we may be small but we are well trained and have alot of heart. We did after all contribute troops and ships to Afghanistan, to the extent that our manpower limitations would allow.


I agree entirely that, despite all of that the Liberals/Conservatives have done, the Canadian forces are effective well above what you'd expect in terms of the equipment. Unfortunately, the Forces are gradually (or not so gradually for certain types of equipment - read helicopters) rusting out and the constant rotation of troops (especially infantry) to numerous foreign assignments is wearing down the system. I've read that within the next 5 years or so, much of the "critical middle" - senior NCOs - will be able to retire. If this bulge retires (why wouldn't a vast majority give the situation), a much smaller group exists who can take potentially take over, leading to memory loss and the loss of the institutional knowledge that makes the Canadian Forces effective.

I still state that Canada doesn't pull its weight - however, the Forces pull much more weight than they should have to as a result of being undermanned and overused. A major portion of the Forces - especially the army - are always either overseas, R&Ring from being overseas, or training to go overseas. All of the operations time cuts away from being able to keep current on all the training needed in the modern military.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 03:32pm
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I'll add a few comments of my own.

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On the flip side, most Americans remain indifferent to the insults and jibes floating across the border. Despite more than two years of high-level political conflict, and the best attempts of talk-radio foamers to lump Canada together with "socialist weenies" of Old Europe, 74 per cent of U.S. respondents say their opinion of our country remains unchanged. Twelve per cent say they think less of us, while an equal number say they like us more. A quarter of Americans think Canada's global reputation has improved, while 60 per cent say it has stayed the same. Their word of choice for their northern neighbours is "tolerant"; "compassionate" and "funny" are also high on the list. And an overwhelming majority would put their troops in harm's way to help us, with 60 per cent strongly supporting the idea.


Most people I know have no real opinion on Canada other than the 'friendly northern neighbor' stereotype, so I think this part is true.



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Well what can I say about US Global opinion. It certainly has gotten worse since the war in Iraq. George Bush has managed to turn over whelming support into hatred and distrust through what other nations see as deception. I think that most Canadians didn't support the war on Iraqi because of the circumvention of the UN and the belief that Saddam posed no threat to the US.


It's not just Canadians who see it as deception. Many Americans are starting to feel that way as well.

However, there is a 'circle the wagons' tendency however that results in a lot of people discounting criticism from foreign sources.

Trust me though, Canada is not though of on the same level as France by the man on the street.


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Truth be told, many Canadians take a certain pride in raising such American ire. If we can't always compete with the proprietors of the world's most powerful economy and military, we reserve the right to thumb our noses at them. It's a beery brand of nationalism -- loud-mouthed flag-waving coupled with a Ned Flanders preachiness -- that risks becoming as stale as a Sunday morning barroom. The type of patriotic fervour we once professed to loathe is now one of our trademarks, and co-opted to sell everything from Molson's suds, to Tim Hortons donuts, to Petro-Canada gasoline. Our obsessive need to poke and prod every aspect of our relationship with the U.S. infects our books, cinema, music and media -- including, obviously, this very magazine. It's tempting to call it our greatest cultural rivalry -- except that, technically speaking, the other party should know that you're competing with them.


From what little reading I've done on Canadian history, it seems to be a recurring question of just what does it mean to be a Canadian and it often was defined in terms of differing from Americans rather than what it meant to be Canadian.

The Molson's commercial (I have a prime minister, etc) certainly seem to reinforce this belief.

Of course, we weren't always the best of friends and even up to the US Civil War there were concerns that the US would have invaded Canada in order to gain new territory.

54'40 or fignt! :lol:



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 03:49pm
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Glocksman wrote:
Of course, we weren't always the best of friends and even up to the US Civil War there were concerns that the US would have invaded Canada in order to gain new territory.


Maybe if Americans had invaded(Liberated Canada from the damn British empire) we would be either really independant or made the USa the biggest country on this planet.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 03:50pm
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Glocksman wrote:
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Well what can I say about US Global opinion. It certainly has gotten worse since the war in Iraq. George Bush has managed to turn over whelming support into hatred and distrust through what other nations see as deception. I think that most Canadians didn't support the war on Iraqi because of the circumvention of the UN and the belief that Saddam posed no threat to the US.


It's not just Canadians who see it as deception. Many Americans are starting to feel that way as well.

However, there is a 'circle the wagons' tendency however that results in a lot of people discounting criticism from foreign sources.

Trust me though, Canada is not though of on the same level as France by the man on the street.


That and far more than France the oposition is generally seen as being based on real principles. That makes a big difference when compared to France or to a lesser extent Germany.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 05:06pm
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Been through Canada a couple of times this year. For the most part, they like Americans, at least from my experiences and went out of their way to be helpful in a couple of instances. Just be sure you don't bring up politics. Which most normal people don't do anyway. The feelings seem to be quite visceral on the subject, and its very evident even on the news media.

It's like most parts of the world, people tend to be friendly even if you are American, as long as you don't shove politics in their face. Now, if only the dollar would strengthen up... heh heh.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 05:13pm
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Having made no visits to Canada, home to hockey and higer alcohol content beer, I can say very little about the citizenry in that area. I do however happen to have multiple Canadian friends and while I always think they are plotting a diabolical scheme worthy of us invading they seem to be fairly normal people. To say that they are Americanized or some such is ignoring the fact that they have a significant influence on our culture and can sometimes be indistinguishable due to the fact that we differ on relatively few issues, mainly political ones at that.

So in my mind if I can keep my schemes to rule Canada with an iron fist secret and try to keep politics out of conversation, I tend to get on A-Ok with Canadians.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 05:16pm
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KrauserKrauser wrote:
Having made no visits to Canada, home to hockey and higer alcohol content beer, I can say very little about the citizenry in that area. I do however happen to have multiple Canadian friends and while I always think they are plotting a diabolical scheme worthy of us invading they seem to be fairly normal people. To say that they are Americanized or some such is ignoring the fact that they have a significant influence on our culture and can sometimes be indistinguishable due to the fact that we differ on relatively few issues, mainly political ones at that.

So in my mind if I can keep my schemes to rule Canada with an iron fist secret and try to keep politics out of conversation, I tend to get on A-Ok with Canadians.


AHEM only a Canadian shall rule this country with an iron fist,and that Canadian will be ME :P



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 06:24pm
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So in other words, more Canadians dislike us because of Iraq and George W. Bush. This is different from the rest of the world how?



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 07:28pm
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They hate us more and more, and we don't really care. Sounds about average for most countries. :P



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 08:28pm
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Montcalm wrote:
Glocksman wrote:
Of course, we weren't always the best of friends and even up to the US Civil War there were concerns that the US would have invaded Canada in order to gain new territory.


Maybe if Americans had invaded(Liberated Canada from the damn British empire) we would be either really independant or made the USa the biggest country on this planet.


While there's little doubt that the Grand Army of the Republic would have crushed the British in Canada on the ground, the US Navy would have had its ass handed to it at sea.

In short, we would have conquered the land but our seaboard and commerce at sea would have been frightfully vulnerable to the Royal Navy and probably been forced to withdraw because of the naval inferiority.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 08:50pm
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Well since I live in the nations capital (i.e. center of despair that is Ottawa) and from what I hear from radio talk shows, Americans are to blame for everything. FBI and the CIA planned the 9/11 incident (some even mentioned Jews as the cause). Anything associated with the U.S. is considered horrible to Canadians, at least in Ottawa. My impression is that many Canadians secretly despise the Americans. Me? Well, I don't care what others think of americans. I find the U.S. to be ok. If I could find a decent job that pays very well then I'd go south and live there.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 09:35pm
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Don't forget the money they wasted on 4 old shitty British subs,like we need submarines


We already had submarines before we bought the Upholders class boats (Three 40-year old Oberon class subs, also of British origin). I don't think any modern navy, (even Canada's) can afford not to have submarines, given how they have proliferated even in third-world navies (i.e. Iran).

The acquisition of the Upholders was supposed to be fantastic deal for Canada. The British offered to sell them to us for a nominal fee of £1 after a certain lease period (the Brits were eager to get rid of all their diesel boats so they could have an "all nuclear" submarine force), but the "desnaging" of the Upholders (which we call Victoria Class) has so far cost Canada $750 million :x.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 09:43pm
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I don't get the OP. You're honestly pissed off because Canadians have an opinion? You think it's bad that people might not agree with the US adminsitration? Christ, come to Australia.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 09:43pm
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Ma Deuce wrote:
We already had submarines before we bought the Upholders class boats (Three 40-year old Oberon class subs, also of British origin). I don't think any modern navy, (even Canada's) can afford not to have submarines, given how they have proliferated even in third-world navies (i.e. Iran).

The acquisition of the Upholders was supposed to be fantastic deal for Canada. The British offered to sell them to us for a nominal fee of £1 after a certain lease period (the Brits were eager to get rid of all their diesel boats so they could have an "all nuclear" submarine force), but the "desnaging" of the Upholders (which we call Victoria Class) has so far cost Canada $750 million :x.


We need subs just for the simple reasons that on of the navies primary jobs I ASW work and you need live subs to pratice against. I don't know if buying these used Upholders was such a good plan, so far they've cost a hell of a lot just to bring them back up to operational specs. Apparently they were allowed to deteriorate while being stored by the Brits.



M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 09:54pm
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Stark wrote:
I don't get the OP. You're honestly pissed off because Canadians have an opinion? You think it's bad that people might not agree with the US adminsitration? Christ, come to Australia.


Who said anything about being angry?

The article caught my attention when I was thumbing through a copy of Maclean's at the local library, and I wanted to hear from some honest-to-goodness Canadians (other than my relatives in Edmonton) what they thought of the article and its basis in fact.

If I were upset or angry over the article, I would have made it painfully clear that I was. :lol:



"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 09:55pm
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Enigma wrote:
Well since I live in the nations capital (i.e. center of despair that is Ottawa) and from what I hear from radio talk shows, Americans are to blame for everything. FBI and the CIA planned the 9/11 incident (some even mentioned Jews as the cause).

That's not anti-Americanism; that's just conspiracy theory crackpot stupidity and anti-Semitism. You hear some of the same bullshit on American radio stations.
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Anything associated with the U.S. is considered horrible to Canadians, at least in Ottawa. My impression is that many Canadians secretly despise the Americans.

Many Canadians openly despise the American government, myself included. Personally, I believe there are two Americas: the generous America and the asshole America. Some people belong to one half, some belong to the other half, and some can switch from one to the other depending on their mood or the situation.
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Me? Well, I don't care what others think of americans. I find the U.S. to be ok. If I could find a decent job that pays very well then I'd go south and live there.

I would rather not live there. Too religious, too much simmering resentment between blacks and whites, too tense.



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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-05-11 10:27pm
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Location: British Columbian ExPat
Darth Wong wrote:
I would rather not live there. Too religious, too much simmering resentment between blacks and whites, too tense.


Would living in the US be any worse than living in say Alberta which seems to be the gathering point for fundies in Canada?



M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
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