The Klingons should not exist

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-27 12:51pm

One thing I've noticed about sci-fi (particularly Star Trek) is that a lot of writers have a hard-on for alien species being truly predatory (as opposed to humans, who are omnivores). The Klingons are the best example, but there's also the carrion-eaters in B5. And of course, the Hirogen.

Anyway, it occurs to me that this should not be happening because a truly predatory species would never become technologically advanced in the first place. Technological advancement requires some kind of civilization, which in turn requires stable societies rather than nomadic ones. Throughout history, it has always been agriculture which made societies stake out territorial claims, build stable long-term dwellings and eventually towns/cities, and embark upon serious technological advancement. Societies composed exclusively of hunter-gatherers have always remained at an extremely primitive level. And in fact, the conscious cultivation of crops is one of the few things that truly separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.

In other words, the Klingons simply should never have become an advanced species. At most, they should have been a bunch of low-IQ primitive rock-throwing tribal thugs who were conquered by the first spacefaring civilization to come along.

Of course, the TOS Klingons did not suffer from this problem. I'm speaking of the idiotic B&B-ized Klingons of TNG, DS9, Voyager, and ENT.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-11-27 01:07pm

There is an origin for the Klingons floating around out there for the FASA game that explained that the KLingons were one a slave race for an advanced space faring alien cultuire and they overthrew their masters in a bloody revolt but kept much of their technology. Think the Narns from B5.

That could be a viable alternative or perhaps we are seeing the public face of teh Klingon Empire - its warriors. And the rest of their population are more sedentary and civilized.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-27 01:11pm

Stravo wrote:There is an origin for the Klingons floating around out there for the FASA game that explained that the KLingons were one a slave race for an advanced space faring alien cultuire and they overthrew their masters in a bloody revolt but kept much of their technology. Think the Narns from B5.

And how would they do that, when they're low-IQ morons who would have never developed a viable civilization? Contrary to popular belief, humans wer never ever pure meat-eaters, yet the Bermanized Klingons supposedly are.

That could be a viable alternative or perhaps we are seeing the public face of teh Klingon Empire - its warriors. And the rest of their population are more sedentary and civilized.

The problem is the notion advanced in TNG that Klingons are biologically pure meat-eaters, with digestive systems (and teeth) evolved to suit.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-11-27 01:12pm

Well, we know that they have scientists and they don't appear to be respected as other races would respect theirs.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-11-27 01:32pm

I don't know, off the top of my head; could they develope a civilization based on ranching or herding animals to eat instead of straight agriculture?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-27 01:35pm

Knife wrote:I don't know, off the top of my head; could they develope a civilization based on ranching or herding animals to eat instead of straight agriculture?

How do you herd and ranch animals without agriculture, since the animals need to eat and you have to provide grain in order to keep them in a fixed area?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-11-27 01:40pm

I forgot about B&B's stupidity regarding the Klingon digestive system. Yet one more thing ot tick off on my hate B&B list.

Anyway how about a genetic mutation among the Klingon populace where you have a small sub group that are carnivores and they have risen to a position of power while the agricultrally minded Klingons are second class citizens (Perhaps even smooth headed) UGH. The contortions these bastards have me going through.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-11-27 01:44pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Knife wrote:I don't know, off the top of my head; could they develope a civilization based on ranching or herding animals to eat instead of straight agriculture?
How do you herd and ranch animals without agriculture, since the animals need to eat and you have to provide grain in order to keep them in a fixed area?

Good point. Just trying to come up with something.

Perhaps they did create agriculture but only to a degree to feed the livestock. Or came together in groups to protect their territory and 'herds' that grazed in free ranges.

I really don't know enough about farming nor ranching to put forth a reasonable idea, but it seems plausable (just barely) that a loose civilization could be based on coming together and forming basic agriculture to feed animals in a ranch like setting to have a ready and availble food source for meat eaters.

Or maybe not.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-11-27 01:47pm

Stravo wrote:I forgot about B&B's stupidity regarding the Klingon digestive system. Yet one more thing ot tick off on my hate B&B list.

Anyway how about a genetic mutation among the Klingon populace where you have a small sub group that are carnivores and they have risen to a position of power while the agricultrally minded Klingons are second class citizens (Perhaps even smooth headed) UGH. The contortions these bastards have me going through.

How about a cultural explanation. Klingons were a omnivore race that went meat-a-tarian some time ago. Still doesn't explain the digestive system though. Hmmm.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-11-27 01:49pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Knife wrote:I don't know, off the top of my head; could they develope a civilization based on ranching or herding animals to eat instead of straight agriculture?
How do you herd and ranch animals without agriculture, since the animals need to eat and you have to provide grain in order to keep them in a fixed area?

You can feed animals by grazing them on range lands, but then we have the problem of numbers. Large populations of Klingons cant be supported on such practices. They would need the Klingon equivelant of a feed lot which requires lots of grain input.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2003-11-27 02:50pm

I have to agree with the number of posters that suggested that an intelligent carnivorous species could develop agriculture in order to provide for livestock. Being intelligent, and wanting a secure food supply, they'd swallow their dislike and grow crops to feed herds of livestock so they can feed on them. Another possibility is that they domesticated carnivores only, and they would hunt together, maybe even attacking and eating other groups of Klingons and their herds. A stranger possibility is that not all Klingons are carnivores. Some Klingons might be unable to digest plants, so they stick to meat, or perhaps being carnivorous was engineered into some Klingons at some point, and those Klingons took over society.

As for the idea that Klingons are too stupid to build an advanced civilization, I see no reason to believe it, since they did. It may be that stupid or violent Klingons are encouraged or required to become military grunts. The really stupid and violent ones could be given batleths and daggers and ordered to charge phaser-wielding enemies, so they are removed from the gene pool in a way their culture considers dignified. Since they are an empire, it's possible most of their needs for food, materials and labor are fulfilled by non-Klingons, who seem to be banned from military service.

Darth Wong is right about what he said of Klingons in his Brain Bugs article. Making the Klingons a ripoff of Vikings is stupid. I think it would have been better if they ripped off the Spartans instead.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-11-28 12:29am

CDiehl wrote:I have to agree with the number of posters that suggested that an intelligent carnivorous species could develop agriculture in order to provide for livestock. Being intelligent, and wanting a secure food supply, they'd swallow their dislike and grow crops to feed herds of livestock so they can feed on them. Another possibility is that they domesticated carnivores only, and they would hunt together, maybe even attacking and eating other groups of Klingons and their herds. A stranger possibility is that not all Klingons are carnivores. Some Klingons might be unable to digest plants, so they stick to meat, or perhaps being carnivorous was engineered into some Klingons at some point, and those Klingons took over society.

That makes no logical sense. The very reason why agriculture develops is because it represents a far more reliable food source than wild game, and provides far more food than even domesticated livestock can provide; particularly considering that meat alone is insufficent to provide all the nutrients required for any complex life form.

Furthermore, agriculture leads to a stable social group in which large numbers of persons are gathered and thus creates the conditions for civilisation to develop —common community, thus language, thus learning, thus barter and trade, thus eventually the replacement of barter items with representational trinkets and rare mineral/crystalline items of value for trade, thus a more stable society, thus the need to defend the community and its wealth, thus the eventual invention of the standing army and invention of more effective weaponry, thus science.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-11-28 01:18am

Maybe the predatory lifestyle of the Klingons is a form of decadence that took place after they had established a more sensible civilization.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-11-28 01:26am

Or mabye we should just give up on star trek untill b & b are fired or die an "tragic" and "accidental" death.

Coalition · Post by **Coalition** » 2003-11-28 05:52am

Stravo wrote:There is an origin for the Klingons floating around out there for the FASA game that explained that the KLingons were one a slave race for an advanced space faring alien cultuire and they overthrew their masters in a bloody revolt but kept much of their technology. Think the Narns from B5.

That could be a viable alternative or perhaps we are seeing the public face of teh Klingon Empire - its warriors. And the rest of their population are more sedentary and civilized.

This is the idea that I agree with. It explains the smooth head Klingons, and the rough Klingons.

The Klingons encountered by Archer & co are the outasts from Klingon civilization. The smooth-heads want to get rid of disruptive elements, so they give them some ships, and tell them to leave. The disruptive elements leave the empire, and set up their own little empires. As the smooth empire grows, they force the exiles further outwards, with the options of 'leave or die'.

To help them along, the smooth-headed ones explain the concepts of agriculture, and slavery. The rough Klingons would conquer a planet, and make the beings living there farm enough food, to feed the creatures. The Klingons then eat the creatures. If the slaves don't farm enough food, they become dinner.

Standard method when the rough Klingons meet someone is to try and attack. If they win, they get a new set of slaves to lord over. If they lose, the smooth empire could care less. If the new guys meet the smooth empire, the smooth empire explains away the attacks with generic excuses, repairing damages, etc., until the new guys are satisfied. The smooth Klingons then conquer them with a heavy fleet.

That tactic didn't work against the Federation though, as the Federation was simply too big to conquer at the point of contact, and Section 31 was active, and saw the writing on the wall. Thus the Fed-Klingon war, with smooth heads.

The rough guys saw their smooth brothers getting their tail kicked, and finally decided to return. Some predatory intellect had developed by then (needed to run the ships, and coordinate interstellar actions), and they took their time, until they were part of the Klingon empire actual (ST6).

After that, they assassinated the smooths, and took over completely. The necessity of running the empire, and keeping the slave races down tied up much of their fleet, allowing the Feds to prosper, and get weak. The Feds also traded with the Klingons, forcing some to accept that dealing with prey might be better. Those that traded became powerful, those that didn't became weak, and were killed.

That led to a group of Klingons that were okay with contact with other races. They finally managed to get their empire put back in order, uner a Feudal style system (possible cause is lack of interstellar comm system, relying on courier ships?). Thus the High council (highest ranked under the Emperor, and the Emperor overall.

But they never forgot their deadly ways, and fights are a respected part of their tradition, to solve problems.

But the far more likely explanation is that B&B just wanted a single culture to make their thoughts easier.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-11-28 06:02am

Perhaps its the Klingon Males who indulge in this behavior, and even though its a mostly male dominated government and that households are ran as a sort of patriarchy its a society heavily dependent on its female population?

A population small community could start up around ranching or herding and still not develop agriculture IF they had large tracts of land all to themselves and they could simply move on when it became necessary to do so, but this would support a piddling population.

Or maybe perhaps meat sources n Q'o'nos are or were at some point more plentiful/convenient/easier to obtain than edible plants?

Addendum:

It would appear though that their society has indeed stagnated somewhat. Personally I think that despite the victory in the dominion War the Klingon Empire is on a serious decline and if were were to look at trek post-DS9 by fifty years or so I wouldn't doubt if they've fallen behind the Federation and Romulans to the point where they are on the verge of becoming irrelevant.

And maybe this is why they still extensively use the Bird of Prey?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-11-28 06:48am

Darth Fanboy wrote:It would appear though that their society has indeed stagnated somewhat. Personally I think that despite the victory in the dominion War the Klingon Empire is on a serious decline and if were were to look at trek post-DS9 by fifty years or so I wouldn't doubt if they've fallen behind the Federation and Romulans to the point where they are on the verge of becoming irrelevant.

One theory is that, at some point between the events of The Undiscovered Country and TNG, a fundamentalist religious revolution occurred which overthrew the remnants of the TOS-era power structure and replaced it with a government based upon the priestly authority of the Cult of Kahless, It is also possible, as Darth Wong had suggested elsewhere, that the Klingons were once a multiethnic culture bound by the ideal of national superiority until the ridge-headed Klingons gained the upper hand in a power struggle and subsequently began a campaign of ethnic cleansing to purge the empire of "impure" peoples.

Since we observe ridgeheads conducting themselves along more pragmatic, secularist lines in the TOS movies and the earliest seasons of TNG, it could be hypothesisd that within a 90 year period, the Klingon Empire has suffered numerous political and cultural upheavals which have seriously destabilised their society. As a result, theirs may be such a state of weakness that the primary reason for the present alliance with the Federation is that for all its faults, that government is not looking to annex their spaces and either enslave them (as the Cardassians do with their conquered subjects) or exterminate them (which the Romulans would desire). The Federation is presently in the ascendancy, and the Klingons can safely attatch themselves to its destiny with the assurance of not being interfered with politically while maintaining their illusion of still having a lofty imperial destiny of their own.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-11-28 08:09am

Well, there are predators, that are more or less territorial (not nomadic) like bears, hyenas and wolfes and some of them are even group or herd-animals (what allows them to cooperate in their hunts).

Meat-eaters also have bigger brains and in many cases better senses than plant-eaters, what would favour them in the ability to become sentient (although omnivores are even better, because their wider range of possible food allows them to adapt more easily).

Groups like mongols or huns, who were nomadic and warlike were able to build empires and managed to exploit a lot of other people.

And the vikings were not only barbaric warriors, they were also artists, capable engineers (see their ships), respectable traders and so on.

About the Hirogen, we know, that they are around for at least 100,000 years (because of their relay-net) and were techologically very advanced (singularities as energy-source, the fact, that their relay-stations were still operational, those guys (or better their ancestors) knew how to built things).

The change to a cultur based on nomadic travels and hunting might not be the logical evolution/devolopment from an animal ancestor, but a willing change in life-style (panem et circenses, where the technology provided the bread and the hunts replaced the circus).

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 2003-11-28 09:48am

I wonder how many races in Star Trek have been created by others in the fashion of the Jem Hadar.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-11-28 11:25am

Did we ever get a good look at the teeth of the Hirogen?

dworkin · Post by **dworkin** » 2003-11-28 11:42am

It could be that the Klingon's overlords pulled this trick (from thalia.org, The Things I Will Do if I Am Ever the Hero list).

"If I find myself born or drafted into a universe wherein the laws of nature do not obey consistent principles, I will depart for an alternate universe created by a more reasonable author."

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-11-28 11:48am

Could it be that the Klingons were an omnivorous species who then evolved into carnivores while they were civilized??

Okay, this explanation is a bit awkward and I'm not sure whether it's realistic at all...

BTW - it's been a long time since I last watched ST. Where was it exactly stated that Klingons exclusively live on meat.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-11-28 12:34pm

one tiny problem that sort of negates the caste theory with smooth vs. ridge headed klingon. . . .in the original series, several of the smooth headed klingons were later brought back in the next generation as older warriors (denoting the klingon's long life span), as the ridge headed klingons. in fact, even their greatest warrior, khaless, as shown as a smooth head in the original series. yet when he was brought back through genetic cloning in DS9, (or was that next generation?), he's shown to have a ridged forehead. would the klingon empire have shown so much respect and near fanatic worship to someone of an inferior caste?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-11-28 01:13pm

OI IF only we could have seen TOS Klingons in TNG .....I mean the attitudes the Klingons in TOS had against the Dominion how would the war have gone then???

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-11-28 01:18pm

i'm fairly certain there were some TOS klingons that were either mentioned or supposed to have met captain kirk personally, or something similar, who were brought back for DS9. some of the friends of Dax, for example, who went off to fight with the albino were ridge-headed klingons that were supposed to have been alive and active in the TOS era. Kang and Kholoth, iirc.