DWvsATJ commentary thread.

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DWvsATJ commentary thread.

Postby Anarchist Bunny » 2003-08-31 12:42pm

Just thought I'd make this so that the accually thread doesn't get cluttered with spam.


Uhhh, ATJ your spose to start it with an arguement. You know that right?
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Postby Anarchist Bunny » 2003-08-31 12:45pm

ATJ wrote:e're dealing with the movies and Lucas-sanctioned material ONLY, so no EU! Also, nothing from the Trek novels, aside from (and COMPLETELY) limited to those by Jeri Taylor.


Making up your own rules for whats canon huh?
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Postby Ghost Rider » 2003-08-31 12:45pm

Pfft after not getting how certain board functions work...I think that one flew by him BOTH the times he's challenged Wong.

This is like a chinchilla vs Thor.
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Postby Anarchist Bunny » 2003-08-31 12:53pm

Something I found interesting on SW.com.

starwars.com wrote: Fans of the old monthly Marvel Star Wars comic will be heartened to know that LucasBooks does indeed consider them part of continuity. Decades of retrospect haven't been kind to all the elements of the comic series, but the characters and events still hold weight and are referenced in newer material whenever possible.

In order to allow unlimited freedom of storytelling, the Infinities label has been placed on the anthology series, Star Wars Tales. This means that not only can the stories occur anywhere in the Star Wars timeline, but stories can happen outside continuity.


Wasn't the BDZ demostrated in the comics? And the Infinities label proves that the books are offical, or they wouldn't have come up with the symbol to separtate the non contiuous books from teh offical ones.
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Postby Ghost Rider » 2003-08-31 01:00pm

I also guess his daddy is allowing him use of the computer since that was apparently his excuse last night.
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Postby Anarchist Bunny » 2003-08-31 01:02pm

He made a very stupid statement about that at the begining of the post
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Postby Ghost Rider » 2003-08-31 01:06pm

Yep...maybe he's 8-9?

I dunno...he claims 17.
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Postby Invader ZIm » 2003-08-31 01:46pm

This was always going to be the equivilant of killing a fly with a 10 gauge.

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Postby Utsanomiko » 2003-08-31 01:57pm

Hmm, wish I knew this thread was here earlier. *Settles in*

I have no idea what he's trying to accomplish with the boxing-match theme bullshit. If he keeps it up, I'm going to have trouble refraining from smacking him.
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Postby Darth Garden Gnome » 2003-08-31 02:00pm

anarchistbunny wrote:Accually it is, along with a few events in the Animated Series, and since this is suppose to be DWvsATJ make comments in the commentary thread.
Sorry, I saw "Darth Wong vs Anti-Troll Jihad" and skimmed over the topic, being very confused. I supposed I shoulda picked up on it being AJT, ah well.

Either way he needs to skip the theatrics and, oh, I dunno, make an argument! He's "accpted" Wong's challenge twice now and either time he has avoided actual confrontation.
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Postby Ender » 2003-08-31 02:35pm

Starwars.com wrote:"So how did Anakin get that scar, George?" asks John Knoll

"I don't know. Ask Howard," says George, referring to President of Lucas
Licensing Howard Roffman. "That's one of those things that happens in the
novels between the movies. I just put it there. He has to explain how it got
there. I think Anakin got it slipping in the bathtub, but of course, he's
not going to tell anybody that."


Oh look, Lucas has the EU fill in the blanks. In other words, he considers them valid.

Not that it matters, thought, since he didn't present an argument in any way shape or form.
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Postby Utsanomiko » 2003-08-31 03:50pm

Hmm, doesn't look like we have much to do untill Andrew actually makes some points to backup his argument that Wong's site has major flaws in facts/reasoning, defend Scooter's site, or somesuch argument.

Oh well. Maybe I'll putter around in Photoshop or jot some stuff down untill then.
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Postby Shadow WarChief » 2003-08-31 04:36pm

AJT wrote:And innnnn this corner, age seventeen, .....



Oh hell no.....you're seventeen! Great, just what I the rest of us seventeen year olds don't need: another fool to feed the "all teenagers are idiots" fire. :evil:
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Postby DocHorror » 2003-08-31 04:58pm

But all teenagers are idiots :D
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Postby Utsanomiko » 2003-08-31 05:01pm

Hmm, for some inexplicable reason, he's started another thread to make an argument.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=29089&highlight=

I guess his policy is 'One Thread, One Claim'. :roll:
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Postby Ender » 2003-08-31 05:03pm

Andrew Joshua Talon wrote:My flair for the dramatic is an unfortunate handicap in debates, but nevertheless one I shall ignore. My defining the canon is just to make sure everyone remembers it. THe EU was called a "parallel universe" by Lucas,
No, one narrow viewed intrepretation of that statement that disregards the rest of the sentance and ignores recent statements by Lucas arrives ahtthat conclusion

and given this quote from "Darksaber" regarding durasteel, that could be seen as a good thing:

[i]"Daala turned and ripped one of the electric-blue glowtorches from the floor behind her. 'Enough!' she shouted. She raised the durasteel staff high and smashed it down upon the tabletop. The glowcrystal exploded into shards with crackling blue sparks, and transparent fragments flew in all directions. She hammered the rod down again and again, denting the table, bending the staff, and fragmenting the end."[*i] (Darksaber, p. 133)

Capable of being bent by a pissed off woman (even one with enhanced strength, which compared to the forces out in space combat, is barely anything)? Gee, I wish I had some boots to quake in.
Do you have any proof as to the thickness of the rod?


But, that's not the topic of the reponse to the challenge issued by Wong. This is:

Phaser to Blasters


In ST:II, we see phasers vaporize at least two people.
No. What we see is utterly inconsistent with vaporization. They disappeared, but they were not vaporized
In TNG Season 3, Ep# 57: "The Vengeance Factor", we see Riker vaporize Yuta with a phaser. Granted, Wong argues over "vaporization", but for all intents and purposes, Yuta was reduced to virtually nothing.
The energy requirements are grossly different. Thanks for demonstrating an absolute ignorance of thermodynamics
In TNG Season 3, Ep# 57: "The Vengeance Factor", we see another example of "vaporization", and though there is smoke left over, Wong fails to submit the idea that not ALL of the norandium was vaporized. Considering the size of the pile, and the angle of the phaser blasts, it is entirely possible the away team didn't vaporize it all, and some of it was left over, smoking. This does not indicate phasers are weak, as I might point out that:
Prove your hypothesis.

1: We have never seen an Imperial blaster vaporize a person entirely. Or, any large scale object at all, for that matter. Yes, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru were reduced to flaming corpses, but they were still, in effect, THERE. Phasers have shown themselves capable of leaving virtually nothing left.
We have never seen phasers vaporize anything either. Further, the exact power of phaser rifles has been stated to be 1 MJ in DS9, whereas the yield of a blaster rifle has been estimated to be 4-8 MJ.

2: In the ANH novelization, in the first chapter, [i]Red, green and blue bolts ricocheted off polished sections of wall and floor or ripped long gashes in metal surfaces.[*i]

This seems to indicate that blaster shots simply bounce off mirrored surfaces.
Yes, melting/vaporizing large chunks of metal in the process. You do realize that does nto help your case, right?
On one hand, this is not entirely surprising: The primary shipboard weapon in use in the Star Wars Universe is the laser: at it's most basic, energized light. Since the Empire doesn't use projectile weapons, and how blasters and lasers seem to work exactly the same ("little bolts of light," in the immortal words of John Crichton), it makes sense that blasters are just smaller versions of lasers.
Failing to see how use of lasers (and note that while they have some laser properties, there are also parts utterly inconsistent with laser effects EG the trailing bolt)

3: Phasers can disperse their energies across a wide range for stunning and sweeping manuvers (ST: Voyager "Cathexis", ST DS9 "Way of the Warrior", "Homefront"). While they might not be able to kill large sweeps of targets, they are able to stun large numbers of them.
Yes, because in active combat, being able to do a large number of noncombat things is important.


4: Phasers can adjust their aim ("The Vengeance Factor"[TNG]) by the fact that Riker fires the phaser off-center.
We see lasers do this as well.


Phasers pack far more firepower than blasters do
No. Yields of both can be quantified, and phasers come up lacking
, are more versatile,
In combat you don't want a weapon that can do 80 million things if your oponent is armed with one that can only do one thing extremely well, and that is kill.
and have greater range.
Thanks for providing evidence for that claim there
No matter the argument, the sheer fact that phasers have far greater power in ground combat applications shows that it doesn't matter if the Federation doesn't use very "sophisticated" ground tactics.

Even if we ignore all evidence to the contrary and go with what you said, the fact that they don't use any form of combetent ground tactics is still extremely important. Spandex clas infantry will be massacred by gunships, artillery, and heavy armor. Simple as that. Watch the history channel sometimes kid; you will learn alot about fighting wars.
Lines of Stormtroopers could easily be mowed down by a few security personnel equipped with phasers.
Phasers don't damage crates, you think they will punch through armor?
And given their pathetic aim (Stormtroopers), I doubt they'd prove much of a threat to Federation troops except in numbers.
ATOC, their aim and use in ground combat is extremely effective.
How's that?
Sucks balls.
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Postby Grand Admiral Thrawn » 2003-08-31 05:35pm

ATJ's argument wrote:My flair for the dramatic is an unfortunate handicap in debates, but nevertheless one I shall ignore. My defining the canon is just to make sure everyone remembers it. THe EU was called a "parallel universe" by Lucas, and given this quote from "Darksaber" regarding durasteel, that could be seen as a good thing:


Have you read ANYTHING about the EU's status?
"Daala turned and ripped one of the electric-blue glowtorches from the floor behind her. 'Enough!' she shouted. She raised the durasteel staff high and smashed it down upon the tabletop. The glowcrystal exploded into shards with crackling blue sparks, and transparent fragments flew in all directions. She hammered the rod down again and again, denting the table, bending the staff, and fragmenting the end." (Darksaber, p. 133)

Capable of being bent by a pissed off woman (even one with enhanced strength, which compared to the forces out in space combat, is barely anything)? Gee, I wish I had some boots to quake in.


Wow, you use a FUCKING STAFF to judge the strength of it. Great fucking job there.
But, that's not the topic of the reponse to the challenge issued by Wong. This is:

Phaser to Blasters


In ST:II, we see phasers vaporize at least two people.


Did you see people reacting to the invisible rapidly expanding large cloud of high temperature water vapour?
In TNG Season 3, Ep# 57: "The Vengeance Factor", we see Riker vaporize Yuta with a phaser.


Don't you see anything wrong with the fact that the same setting "vaporizes" large human and Klingon males, but has the exact same effect on a far less massive female?
Granted, Wong argues over "vaporization", but for all intents and purposes, Yuta was reduced to virtually nothing.


Which is NOT what vaporizing is! Matter does not just disappear!
In TNG Season 3, Ep# 57: "The Vengeance Factor", we see another example of "vaporization", and though there is smoke left over, Wong fails to submit the idea that not ALL of the norandium was vaporized. Considering the size of the pile, and the angle of the phaser blasts, it is entirely possible the away team didn't vaporize it all, and some of it was left over, smoking. This does not indicate phasers are weak, as I might point out that:


Wrong, Mike's complaint is that it isn't vaporizing, it's burning! Someone pours sand on it. It was a fire.
1: We have never seen an Imperial blaster vaporize a person entirely. Or, any large scale object at all, for that matter. Yes, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru were reduced to flaming corpses, but they were still, in effect, THERE. Phasers have shown themselves capable of leaving virtually nothing left.


Which, once again, is proof they do not vaporize and are NOT DET weapons. Blasters are.
2: In the ANH novelization, in the first chapter, Red, green and blue bolts ricocheted off polished sections of wall and floor or ripped long gashes in metal surfaces.[*i]

This seems to indicate that blaster shots simply bounce off mirrored surfaces.


It also indicates blasters make long gashes in metal!
On one hand, this is not entirely surprising: The primary shipboard weapon in use in the Star Wars Universe is the laser: at it's most basic, energized light. Since the Empire doesn't use projectile weapons, and how blasters and lasers seem to work exactly the same ("little bolts of light," in the immortal words of John Crichton), it makes sense that blasters are just smaller versions of lasers.


What the fuck are you talking about? Don't tell me you're saying Star Wars uses actual lasers! That's troll level bullshit!
3: Phasers can disperse their energies across a wide range for stunning and sweeping manuvers (ST: Voyager "Cathexis", ST DS9 "Way of the Warrior", "Homefront"). While they might not be able to kill large sweeps of targets, they are able to stun large numbers of them.


Prove this can have any effect on armoured targets, or that is can be used in any long range combat instead of its demonstrated close quarters.

4: Phasers can adjust their aim ("The Vengeance Factor"[TNG]) by the fact that Riker fires the phaser off-center.


Yes.

Phasers pack far more firepower than blasters do,


Wrong,
are more versatile,


Blasters can kill people, stun them, and knock out armored (Stormtroopers and Droids) targets. Anything else is not in any real use on a battlefield.
and have greater range.


You haven't even [i]tried
to prove this. No phaser has demonstrated the kilometer ranges in ESB and AOTC.
No matter the argument, the sheer fact that phasers have far greater power in ground combat applications shows that it doesn't matter if the Federation doesn't use very "sophisticated" ground tactics.


The Federation lacks things like artillery, any vehicles other then a fucking dune buggy, or even A FUCKING MACHINE GUN!
Lines of Stormtroopers could easily be mowed down by a few security personnel equipped with phasers.



Bullshit. The completely re-armed and reequiped forces in "Siege" couldn't fucking handle a INFANTRY CHARGE!

And given their pathetic aim (Stormtroopers), I doubt they'd prove much of a threat to Federation troops except in numbers.


Stormtroopers will be the LEAST of the Federations worries. Something else will masscre them: Combined Arms.
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Postby mauldooku » 2003-08-31 05:39pm

anarchistbunny wrote:Something I found interesting on SW.com.

starwars.com wrote: Fans of the old monthly Marvel Star Wars comic will be heartened to know that LucasBooks does indeed consider them part of continuity. Decades of retrospect haven't been kind to all the elements of the comic series, but the characters and events still hold weight and are referenced in newer material whenever possible.

In order to allow unlimited freedom of storytelling, the Infinities label has been placed on the anthology series, Star Wars Tales. This means that not only can the stories occur anywhere in the Star Wars timeline, but stories can happen outside continuity.


Wasn't the BDZ demostrated in the comics? And the Infinities label proves that the books are offical, or they wouldn't have come up with the symbol to separtate the non contiuous books from teh offical ones.


IIRC, lots of cool shiznitz were demonstrated in the comics- Star 'Battleships', 'Battlecruisers', etc.

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Postby Master of Ossus » 2003-08-31 07:20pm

Mike, AJT's post is essentially a copy-paste job from DarkStar's. This shows his spectacular intellectual dishonesty.

I just have a couple things to add (which I ALREADY POINTED OUT TO DARKSTAR):

1. In TPM, a blaster shot was seen prominently deflecting off the FUCKING GROUND when the battle droids went up against the Gungan Army. The reflective properties of the target have nothing to do with the tendency to create richochets, since the ground is not remotely reflective. ATJ is simply lying by following DarkStar's words.

2. His dismissal of tactics is laughable. SF personnel no longer even consider tactics to be worth learning. SF personnel in ST:Nemesis REPEATEDLY MISSED man-sized targets who were standing still at ranges of well under ten meters. That is PATHETIC accuracy, given that they were carrying assault rifle-analogues at the time.

3. I like how he never even attempts to produce evidence that phasers have greater range than blasters, and how he ignores canonical complaints regarding the reliability of phasers, which is far more important than their ability to provide small amounts of heat for a limited amount of time.
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Postby Ender » 2003-09-01 08:47am

Damn, I had kinda hoped somethign had happened overnight.
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Postby Jason von Evil » 2003-09-01 12:09pm

Oi, I always wondered when someone would try and claim that the Stormies suck at aiming. I finally get to use my 137kb of SW knowledge!

Ever notice that the only people the Stormies have consistently missed were THE MAIN FRIGGIN CHARACTERS? If they hit them, there wouldn't be any damn SW movies, would there?

Final thought: Ban AJT!
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Postby CmdrWilkens » 2003-09-01 07:23pm

I just love when someone trys to make a point by boiling a discussion down to one tiny point which, even if he is correct, has absolutely no bearing on the larger debate. I wonder if this kid even realizes how land warfare works when you place an infantry only force completely devoid of tactical skill against one which employs Manuever Warfare to its best advantage.
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Postby Connor MacLeod » 2003-09-01 07:47pm

Hey Wilkens! WB. :) Glad to have some more of the rational side of ASVS back here :D

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Postby Ted C » 2003-09-01 10:18pm

You know, if we're going to have all these dissatisfied fans like AJT and Triumviron picking fights with the likes of Mike and Brian, maybe we should appoint some "dueling seconds" so to get all the preliminary arguments out of the way.

Traditionally, after the "duelists" had agreed to fight each other, the seconds from each side got together to work out the rules: weapons to be used, limits on clothing (so both sides show up equally attired), time and place, victory conditions, etc. With such a system, we might actually be able to have a real debate over the topic instead of reading several pages of squabbling over terms.
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Postby Howedar » 2003-09-01 10:25pm

What an interesting idea.
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