Macrocannon Size

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Macrocannon Size

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-10 02:52am

Hi everyone, I noticed that when we talk about macrocannons on the forums, we are referring to them shooting bullets 50 meters in diameter. But seeing the images of the ships it is clear that the macrocannons do not have the same dimensions, for example the macrocannons of a Glorian class, looking at the photos, are 2-3 times larger than those of a cruiser, as they are always taken into consideration only those from 50m of caliber towards spaceships?

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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2019-09-10 05:04am

40K Macro cannons come in various sizes, all of them fucking big. That's why, except when quoting specific examples, they are spoken of in rather general terms. The number of guns and the size of said guns can vary considerably between ships of the same general class.
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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-11 02:07pm

Thanks Imperial Overlord. Looking at the pictures of the Glorian Classes and of the Ark Hope, approximately how big should the guns be? Considering that those of an average cruiser are 50 meters in diameter

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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by Elheru Aran » 2019-09-11 02:41pm

You're not going to find out unless you do some math. Pretty sure it's never stated except in pretty general terms ("this gun is fecking BIG") except in a few very rare examples.

Just scale it up a bit, say if the Glorianas are 20ish km in length, and an 'average cruiser' is 5ish km, then the biggest macrocannon might be 200m diameter. Which is pretty dang big. But just scaling it up 4x isn't necessarily the answer... all you can conclusively say is that a Gloriana's macrocannons are probably bigger than a cruiser macrocannon.
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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-12 07:16pm

I understand thanks, it would be interesting to deduce from the images how big the macrocannons and lances of an Abyss Class or an Ark Hope are, they are as big as a continent

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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2019-09-13 06:54pm

No they aren't. The Furious Abyss was larger than a Glorianna, but still smaller than Phalanx and no where near continent size. Ark Mechanicus are battleship sized, although Speranza which has Dark Age Technology, is probably Glorianna sized.
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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-13 10:59pm

But in the novels it is expressly said that they were the size of a continent, even the imperator somnium is defined as such, so large as to have their own gravitational field capable of hindering the navigation of other ships.

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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2019-09-14 12:02am

What is expressly said to be the size of a continent? Certainly not the Imperator Somnium, which is merely fucking huge. The Furious Abyss class dwarf Glorianna's but are no where near the thousand kilometer plus size necessary for a literal claim of "continental". Is it a literal claim or a hyperbolic description meant to convey how overwhelmingly large it appears? As for having a gravitational field, everything with a mass has them. We know the calculation of Mandeville points is quite sensitive to the influence of gravity but vague on the specifics so again, it doesn't give us anything concrete.
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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-15 12:02am

From the novels it is clear only that they are as big as a continent, if it is written there it is canon, certainly it could be a hyperbole, but a ship of 100-300 km even with a hyperbole compares it to a continent, it must be thousands large of km at least to make a hyperbola with a continent. Furthermore, if you read Priest of Mars and Lords of Mars, environments are described that are too large to fit into the dimensions of common ships such as the Gloriana (which in any case are ships that reach up to 26 km).

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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2019-09-15 02:26am

Wrong. Nothing about the Speranza's insides indicate anything like 100km. It has multi kilometer long decks and hangar bays, which a 20km vessel could manage and a 30km vessel manage even easier. There are no hard numbers on the Furious Abyss, but it is consistently described as being the largest battleship ever built not of being whole orders of magnitudes larger than a Glorianna. Moreover its interactions with the vessels attacking it are those of a vessel that is actually threatened by thrown together squadron of Imperial ships, not a 100km+ beast that could shrug them off. Furthermore the boarding action that occurs on Furious Abyss is not indicative a 100km+ vessel. Continental doesn't apply to either.
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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-19 03:03am

speaking to an iter who read the Forges of Mars series, he gave me these reflections (I report them as I read them):

"Declared to be as big as a continent (as a continent? Who knows)

Its docking bays are large enough to hold more warships inside. One example is the 3 km Renard Trader, which is the size of a cruiser. I don't remember if the entire support fleet was also moored inside. I just know that the half dozen or the cruisers were definitely out of it to protect him.

It has its own gravity well, forcing the ships to tie in a tail like a tractor beam to dock inside, at least the size of a moon.

When he made a hole in the warp by himself, the door was so large that the rest of the fleet could easily fit.

It has more training rooms for Titan

My favorite: they used high-speed trains to get around the inside of the ship.

It was large enough to fill more gravity distortions that were powerful enough to destroy its escort cruisers, including the Black Templar cruiser, suffering only severe damage to the affected parts

It has more terraforming machines of 10 km in diameter attached to the lower side (at least 4 iirc)

The battle scenes when embarked support the idea that it's fucking huge, in case you haven't noticed the hundreds of tanks and superpowers, titans and thousands of infantry fighting in one area (one of the training rooms) . "

In my opinion, the fact of having a gravitational field capable of stopping the navigation of ships already suggests a mass greater than a 30km ship.
The terraforming machines on board are 4, each 10 km long, only they occupy 40 km of space.
In addition to this there are the war drill rooms where whole armies of earth must move.
There are also several docking bays for the support fleet, each bay can accommodate huge ships, the 3 km Renard Trader is mentioned in one of the bays.

From an objective observation all these environments cannot be contained in 30-50 km, must necessarily be larger, at least 100km.
Which classifies the continental quotation as hyperbole, but we cannot attribute it common dimensions of 30-50km, because simply all the environments that are seen in the novel could not be accommodated inside it.

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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2019-09-20 02:32am

Easily contained in 30km. There's nothing common about 30km-50km in size. You need to think in three dimensions.


Say the Speranza is 30km x 5km x 5km. You need high speed trains to get around that ship. Much smaller ships in 40k have them as do smaller ships in other franchises.

You can have four 2kmx2kx 4km long ship bays in the bottom of an 8km section with 300 meter tall x 4kmx 8km training on top of it and still have more than two vertical kilometers of decking, holds, and machinery in that section and 500meters wide space on either side of those hangers and that training deck to fill with other things. And that is just for a quarter of the length of the ship.

If the terraformers are as big as you say, they are still attached to the outside of Speranza and with two lined up on one side and two on another a 30km vessel has plenty of size for them and its giving up internal volume.

And lets not forget the plasma annihilator "accident" that did serious damage to the Speranza's internals. Given the power of 40k ship weaponry and the ability of 40k ships to survive that punishment without shields, the fact that it did make so much of a mess argues strongly for smaller, not greater, size.
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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-20 04:11am

what you describe, however, contradicts the style of all the interiors of the 40k ships, you describe a functional environment, which fills every inch, but seeing the images of the interiors of the ships you notice that they are oversized compared to the function, they are opulent and exaggerated, they reflect the idea of ​​majesty that embodies 40k.

the ship cannot have four bays because it has an escort fleet, why do you mention only 4 bays?

there isn't a single war simulation room, and in every room they have to maneuver whole armies

why do you say that terraforming machines are external? That I remember there are no quotations about it. Furthermore the machines are at least 4, not necessarily 4, only the machines are 40 km, if they were external we would have the little train, the spaceship with the trailer behind.

In addition to this we must also consider:
Lodging
munitions
factories
city
training centers
research centers
hangar
mechanical workshops
maintenance centers
and yet so much more, if you look at the material in this regard you will be surprised how I remained.

Also how do you justify the gravitational field strong enough to hinder the navigation of the other cruisers?
Not even a Super Star Destroyer Executo that is 19 km long has this mass.

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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by NecronLord » 2019-09-20 05:05am

Tell you what Lion, rather than getting others to do the work, why don't you find a quote that says it's the size of a continent and show it for us?

Continent size starships aren't a problem intellectually, craftworlds are that size, but you need to produce evidence of this claim.
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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2019-09-20 06:50am

WhiteLion wrote:
2019-09-20 04:11am
what you describe, however, contradicts the style of all the interiors of the 40k ships, you describe a functional environment, which fills every inch, but seeing the images of the interiors of the ships you notice that they are oversized compared to the function, they are opulent and exaggerated, they reflect the idea of ​​majesty that embodies 40k.
Nonsense. I describe vast areas of open space. I mention how much fucking extra space there is even with the huge features, meaning the features could be even fucking bigger and it still has space. Much of the Speranza is not opulent. Huge areas are cramped and miserable. There's a whole plot line about a labor revolt in the miserable conditions.
the ship cannot have four bays because it has an escort fleet, why do you mention only 4 bays?
I give an example of four full sized star ship bays it easily has room for at 30km. The escort fleet doesn't travel in the bays, only the Rogue Trader vessel does. Since the description isn't specific the Speranza could have fewer holds capable of holding a starship and the Rogue Trader vessel could easily only be escort sized and fit in a much smaller hold. The numbers could be smaller.
there isn't a single war simulation room, and in every room they have to maneuver whole armies
I only recall one very big one, but that's not a problem. I demonstrated they easily have room for more.
why do you say that terraforming machines are external? That I remember there are no quotations about it. Furthermore the machines are at least 4, not necessarily 4, only the machines are 40 km, if they were external we would have the little train, the spaceship with the trailer behind.
You're the one who said they were external. I don't even remember them.
It has more terraforming machines of 10 km in diameter attached to the lower side (at least 4 iirc)
"attached to the lower side" means they're external.
In addition to this we must also consider:
Lodging
munitions
factories
city
training centers
research centers
hangar
mechanical workshops
maintenance centers
and yet so much more, if you look at the material in this regard you will be surprised how I remained.
You continue not to grasp how big even a 5km long vessel is, let alone a 20km long one is. None of these things are laid out flat, edge to edge, one after another. The built next to each other and on top of each other, using all three dimensions. There's plenty of space on a 20-30km vessel for all that.
Also how do you justify the gravitational field strong enough to hinder the navigation of the other cruisers?
Not even a Super Star Destroyer Executo that is 19 km long has this mass.
It's a ship with a black hole gun that despite being huge was excavated intact from a planet. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that gravity wierdness is to be expected and not necessarily indicative of size.
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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-20 07:38am

okay respect your point of view, but to me it seems very reductive.

The black hole guns, of which I know, do not have a black hole permanently inside, they generate them and use them as projectiles. If they are not activated the ship does not carry black holes. But if I'm wrong correct me, I still haven't read the book, I refer to quotes that give me friends who pity my thirst for news :)

The Hope Ark is described as much larger than a Glorian class, the Iron Blood is 20km, the MacGragge Honor is 26km, if it were how would you say how could it be hugely bigger than a Glorian class?

It takes mass to have gravity, if the ship is small the mass doesn't have it.

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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by NecronLord » 2019-09-20 08:53am

WhiteLion wrote:
2019-09-20 07:38am
okay respect your point of view, but to me it seems very reductive.

The black hole guns, of which I know, do not have a black hole permanently inside, they generate them and use them as projectiles. If they are not activated the ship does not carry black holes. But if I'm wrong correct me, I still haven't read the book, I refer to quotes that give me friends who pity my thirst for news :)

The Hope Ark is described as much larger than a Glorian class, the Iron Blood is 20km, the MacGragge Honor is 26km, if it were how would you say how could it be hugely bigger than a Glorian class?

It takes mass to have gravity, if the ship is small the mass doesn't have it.
Mass and energy are interchangeable. This is a law of physics that holds true even in 40k (conversion beamers exist, and necron scarabs prove this) as such, and this is a little known implication of relativity, energy itself warps spacetime. IE somewhere there must be mass-energy equivalent to the Sperenza's ammunition on board, which would exert a proportionate gravitic pull, even if it was not compressed into a singularity.
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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2019-09-20 01:40pm

WhiteLion wrote:
2019-09-20 07:38am

The Hope Ark is described as much larger than a Glorian class, the Iron Blood is 20km, the MacGragge Honor is 26km, if it were how would you say how could it be hugely bigger than a Glorian class?
Glorianna's aren't mentioned at all when describing the Speranza. They're extraordinary rare, unique vessels that aren't mentioned at all in the trilogy. The Speranza is described as larger than a battleship, which tend to be 6km-9km long. The Speranza is also not unique in being larger than a battleship as mass haulers are also larger than battleships. It's clearly huge and powerful, with giant holds, massive engines, factories, war simulation decks, and so forth as well. It also suffers significant damage when a plasma annihilator discharges inside of it, which means while it is big it isn't so big that it conventional weaponry can't wreck it, which is also supported by Eldar's attempt to destroy it with conventional warships.


I don't think you have a good grasp of how big 1km long starship is let alone a 10k or 20km. Let me give an example.

Say the Speranza is 30km x5km x5km. Thats 25x30=750 cubic kilometers.

Lets model a big internal factory 20m ceiling x 200 meters wide x 500 meters long. In a cubic kilometer you can stack

2x lengthx5size x 50 height= 500 hundred internal factories in that cubic kilometer. In a ship that 750 of those cubic kilometers. That's 500 factories taking up less than 1% of its internal volume. And what if it only has 10 or 20 factories? Or even 50?
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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-20 06:35pm

Hope is compared to a continent exactly like the Abyss class, the Abyss class is literally quoted as capable of eclipsing the Glorian classes. As far as I know I read this. Since they are both described as large as a continent, I mentioned the comparison in this regard.

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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by Elheru Aran » 2019-09-20 06:52pm

Eclipsing is a meaningless term. The Moon is much smaller than the Earth, yet it eclipses the Earth rather regularly. All that means is it blocks the light between a star and a body in orbit around that star.
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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-20 07:44pm

So with eclipse, do you think they meant it was smaller?

In my opinion, when an author describes a ship as big as a continent, with a mass such as to have its own gravitational field capable of preventing navigation by smaller ships, and capable of eclipsing huge ships, I do not think that it wants to describe a ship just 4 km longer than a Glorian class, or at least I do not think it plausible. They are precise data perfectly in harmony with each other, usually hyperboles are single concepts used to enhance something in a specific situation.

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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2019-09-21 02:18am

You have no precise data. There is never any precise data given about the size of the Furious Abyss or the Speranza. Both types of vessel are described as being bigger than other battleships. Both are threatened by small numbers of conventional starships with conventional weapons, indicating that while they are larger and more powerful than other vessels, they are still operating on the same general scale and are not super huge monstrosities capable of shrugging off conventional warships.

The Furious Abyss and its sister ships are notable in that they are constructed in secret and are even more powerful than the Gloriannas, thus capable of dominating naval engagement they are involved in. Despite this, the Furious Abyss fails in its mission, defeated by a thrown together squadron of warships.

The Speranza is notable not only for its shear size, but the presence of Dark Age systems on board the ship. Despite this and an escort that included a Black Templars strike cruiser and a Grand Cruiser, a handful of Eldar Cruisers are able to come close to destroying it. Its a large, powerful ship armed with tremendously powerful exotic technology, but still operating at the same general scale as other capital warships.
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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-21 07:50am

At this point, I quote you precise quotations of the works:

The battle of World War Armor, here it is explicitly said that the Abyss class rivals in Phalanx firepower and size, how big is the Phalanx? The comparison with the continent was not a hyperbole.
To make the Abyss class shields just collapse, a fleet of orbital ships, battle stations and defense platforms (planetary weapons) were needed, as well as a warship attack by a warship ...... all of this just for to lower the shields.

Quote: "The Blessed Lady and her twin sister, the Trisagion, made a mockery of Armor's orbital arrays, dismantling one of the best-defended worlds in the Imperium with flashing weapon decks. The ships' size and scale rendered all countermeasures Obsolete to the first hour, nothing could punch through their Void Shields, even their scrape of their skin It took the firepower of a battle-station, two orbital defense platforms and a suicidal ramming from an Imperial warship to finally penetrate the Blessed Lady's shields. "

The forces of an entire planet, orbital and naval, were needed to bring down the shields ... all for a ship. In the quotation it is also reported that due to the enormous size of the ship they have rendered all countermeasures obsolete.

He is not a normal ship he fought against a world.

The Hope you say that threatened by normal ships, I didn't know this, you could kindly give me canon quotes about it.
For my little knowledge I know it is a huge ship studded with weapons that dark age, which mounts black hole guns capable of firing black holes and destroying ships even when the target is missing creating a time distortion on the target. (source: Priest of Mars, Lord of Mars), the eldar ship is destroyed by a single cannon shot that was not even signed, this testifies to the power of the weapon, how can you say that it operates on the same power scale as the other ships?



I summarize what emerges from the quotations I have quoted:

1) The Abyss is as big as a continent, rivaling in size with the Phalanx.
2) The Abyss rivals in firepower with the Phalanx and sustains the fire of a fleet of ships, a battle station, two orbital defense systems, and a warship suicide attack, after which the shields collapse.
3) Hope Ark is described as large as a continent
4) The Ark Hope has weapons that fire black holes and that even when the target is missing they create a temporal distraction capable of destroying a large Eldar ship.

Source: Priest of Mars, Lord of Mars, Gods of Mars, https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Trisagion )

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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2019-09-21 02:34pm

You make poor use of quotation marks and no reference pages.

This bit:
The Blessed Lady and her twin sister, the Trisagion, made a mockery of Armor's orbital arrays, dismantling one of the best-defended worlds in the Imperium with flashing weapon decks. The ships' size and scale rendered all countermeasures Obsolete to the first hour, nothing could punch through their Void Shields, even their scrape of their skin It took the firepower of a battle-station, two orbital defense platforms and a suicidal ramming from an Imperial warship to finally penetrate the Blessed Lady's shields. "
This bit comes from Betrayer (you should include page number and what book its from) and represents an attack by both surviving members of the Furious Abyss class leading a Word Bearers fleet on a fortified world. All it establishes is that a fleet spearheaded by two of the most powerful battleships ever built can crush the orbital defences of a well defended planet (never in dispute) and that the Furious Abyss class can take a lot of punishment before it loses its shields (also never in dispute). Orbital defense platforms are usually small stations (they're relatively small and cheap and you can build lots), a battle station is impressively well armed, but the ramming vessel isn't identified at all which means its a big fat unknown. That seems sufficient to drop the shields on a 20-30km battleship but far too light to knock down of a 100km monster ship.

1) The Phalanx is not continental in size
2) The Furious Abyss is tough, which is not contested. Tanking fire from multiple vessels is a conventional battleship can do and a Glorianna can do far, far better. None of what the Furious Abyss does requires it being multiple orders of magnitude larger than a Glorianna.
3)The Speranza is raised from a planet's surface and is never seriously claimed to be as large as a continent.
4) It's never disputed that the Speranza is special. What is disputed is your claim it must be 100km+ in size. The black hole gun doesn't change that it was threatened by an ambush of Eldar cruisers and that the plasma annihilator accident did serious internal damage.

You have twice ignored the plasma annihilator accident. Please address it.

I have work and life, so it will be several days before I can dig through the Priests of Mars for supporting quotes. You have every right to ask for them, but it will take several days.

The nearly the whole of the Battle of the Furious Abyss is the Furious Abyss being harried by a thrown together squadron of lesser vessels. I'm not sure what you want from it.
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Re: Macrocannon Size

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-22 05:06am

Why do you say that Phalanx is not as big as a continent? It is as big as a small moon, I bring you the sources:
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Phalanx
Code: Adeptus Custodes (8th edition), p. 28
Index Astartes II, "Fist of the Emperor - The Chapter of the Space Navy of the Imperial Fists", p. 12
Space Marine (novel) by Ian Watson
Sons of Dorn (novel) by Chris Roberson, pages 5, 70, 82-83
The flight of Eisenstein (novel) by James Swallow
Phalanx (novel) by Ben Counter, p. 1-4, 70, 77-78, 121, 206, 236-237, 253-254, 277-279
The Dark King - The Lightning Tower (audiobook) by Dan Abnett and Graham McNeill
The Gathering Storm - Part I - Fall of Cadia (7th Edition) (Digital Edition), pag. 54

the precise quotation is: "Great as a small moon or a large asteroid", "Phalanx is the only boat ever built by humanity that approaches in size and complexity to that of the Eldar s' Arcamondi"

The Abyss class is cited as able to rival in power and size with the Phalanx, since they are canon quotations I don't see why you want to contradict them, also because in support of your hypothesis that it is 30 km large you have no canon source.

What puzzles me is that we share it with ordinary ships when it took a whole fleet of spaceships, a battle platform, two orbital defense systems and a warship suicide attack to bring down the shields. Pretically he fought alone against a world.

However I respect your point of view, I just kindly wanted to point out to you that what I said has canon sources to support, while what you say is the result of a personal reflection.

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