The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Knife » 2019-12-20 11:23pm

All it did was stop McConnell from doing a rapid acquittal. It'll put some pressure on the GOP to bargain with the minority but not much. I also think Pelosi gave Trump the proverbial rope with the State of the Union Address, let Trump be Trump and he'll say something stupid. It's a game of chicken now, see if Trump will say something stupid to change public opinion before the Senate trial.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-20 11:28pm

Knife wrote:
2019-12-20 11:23pm
All it did was stop McConnell from doing a rapid acquittal. It'll put some pressure on the GOP to bargain with the minority but not much. I also think Pelosi gave Trump the proverbial rope with the State of the Union Address, let Trump be Trump and he'll say something stupid. It's a game of chicken now, see if Trump will say something stupid to change public opinion before the Senate trial.
Yep. Trump is good at playing the media, to a point, but he also has a tendency to say things that blow up in his face. The longer this goes, the more chance he'll do something to make it even worse for him.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Ralin » 2019-12-20 11:45pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-12-20 11:28pm

Yep. Trump is good at playing the media, to a point, but he also has a tendency to say things that blow up in his face. The longer this goes, the more chance he'll do something to make it even worse for him.
He's NOT good at playing the media. He just acts like himself and it turns out that a key demographic has a Trump-shaped hole in their heads.

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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by aerius » 2019-12-20 11:49pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-12-20 11:28pm
Yep. Trump is good at playing the media, to a point, but he also has a tendency to say things that blow up in his face. The longer this goes, the more chance he'll do something to make it even worse for him.

Problem is even when shit blows up in his face, he vomits out so much verbal diarrhea that it rarely has a lasting effect. 24/7 news cycles along with a non-existent attention span and memory retention in the general public means that Trump pretty much always gets away with this shit.
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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-21 01:49am

Some good news: public opinion seems to be swinging back in favor of impeachment, at least according to one new poll:

https://politico.com/news/2019/12/20/po ... ent-088812

Support for impeachment 52 to 43. Independents break 48/41 in favor.

Support for more witnesses at the Senate trial at 54%.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox » 2019-12-21 09:40pm

The biggest problem for McConnel is Trump himself, who would force McConnel and the GOP senators to make the trial as drawn out as possible to 'exonerate' him.

... and whatever Trump wants, the base WILL ensure he gets.

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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Ralin » 2019-12-21 10:06pm

GrosseAdmiralFox wrote:
2019-12-21 09:40pm
The biggest problem for McConnel is Trump himself, who would force McConnel and the GOP senators to make the trial as drawn out as possible to 'exonerate' him.
That seems like a level of detail Trump is unlikely to be invested in.
... and whatever Trump wants, the base WILL ensure he gets.
You mean like how the last government shutdown continued until Trump got his way?

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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox » 2019-12-22 03:37am

Ralin wrote:
2019-12-21 10:06pm
That seems like a level of detail Trump is unlikely to be invested in.
Trump is a narcissist and has an almost OCP level of need to be seen as 'winning'. Given that there is word that the assholes like McConnel have been trying to keep Trump from forcing the GOP to make it as long as possible...
You mean like how the last government shutdown continued until Trump got his way?
The thing is that the GOP's base is literally Trump's base, that is the context that I forgot to put in.

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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Ralin » 2019-12-22 03:49am

GrosseAdmiralFox wrote:
2019-12-22 03:37am
Trump is a narcissist and has an almost OCP level of need to be seen as 'winning'.
Which he usually accomplishes by declaring he's won despite any evidence to the contrary.
Given that there is word that the assholes like McConnel have been trying to keep Trump from forcing the GOP to make it as long as possible...
Source?
The thing is that the GOP's base is literally Trump's base, that is the context that I forgot to put in.
They were the GOP base during the last shutdown too, and that didn't stop Trump and the GOP from backing down in the end. So again, what's your point?

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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-22 09:34pm

As a frequent critic of Pelosi, I will admit that the Shutdown was probably her finest hour. She held the line under immense pressure and she forced the Donald to blink first. She made him (mostly) back down, and few enough people have meaningfully done that in the last four years (or ever).

Of course, he then used an illegal executive order to do an end run around Congress's Constitutional power of the purse, but still.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Rogue 9 » 2020-01-06 05:53pm

John Bolton says he will testify in the Senate trial if subpoenaed. Of course, he knows full well who controls subpoena power and the direction of questioning in the Senate, so we'll see how much that's worth.
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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Knife » 2020-01-08 11:18am

Rogue 9 wrote:
2020-01-06 05:53pm
John Bolton says he will testify in the Senate trial if subpoenaed. Of course, he knows full well who controls subpoena power and the direction of questioning in the Senate, so we'll see how much that's worth.
Though, legally, there is no difference between a subpoena from the Senate and the House. Wonder what will happen when Nadar subpoena's him?
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Rogue 9 » 2020-01-11 11:40pm

Knife wrote:
2020-01-08 11:18am
Rogue 9 wrote:
2020-01-06 05:53pm
John Bolton says he will testify in the Senate trial if subpoenaed. Of course, he knows full well who controls subpoena power and the direction of questioning in the Senate, so we'll see how much that's worth.
Though, legally, there is no difference between a subpoena from the Senate and the House. Wonder what will happen when Nadar subpoena's him?
He'd likely argue that's different because the House isn't conducting a trial.
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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Enigma » 2020-01-11 11:52pm

Unless I'm mistaken, Trump is thinking of using an executive order to prevent Bolton from testifying should Bolton be subpoenaed.
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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Knife » 2020-01-12 09:26am

Enigma wrote:
2020-01-11 11:52pm
Unless I'm mistaken, Trump is thinking of using an executive order to prevent Bolton from testifying should Bolton be subpoenaed.
That's fine but the SCOTUS has already ruled at least once I believe on Executive Privilege. If it's used to cover a crime, it's null and void on that issue AND the Chief Justice happens to be sitting right there to rule on such things.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Coop D'etat » 2020-01-12 05:56pm

aerius wrote:
2019-12-20 10:02pm
TimothyC wrote:
2019-12-20 08:19am
It seems to me that if the House refuses to send the articles to the Senate for trial, they could run the risk of a sixth amendment issues with a speedy trial. It does come off as though the current House majority is more concerned with getting rid of the President than they are with doing so in the right and proper manner.
I don't think there's a 6th Amendment issue in play since there is nothing in the rules or any precedent for what constitutes a timely trial in the case of an impeachment. If they wait a few weeks there's not going to be any issues, if they sit on it till next summer it would probably still be legal but then you run into a whole bunch of issues with public perception and controlling the narrative, which the Democrats absolutely suck at doing. My money is on Pelosi fucking everything up again as usual.
There's a more fundamental point that commentators keep getting wrong.

Impeachment and removal are not criminal law processes. There's some analogous elements, but a impeachment charge isn't at all a criminal charge, it doesn't have the same procedures or rules of evidence or standards of evidence and doesn't have the same legal protections. Impeachment is legally entirely sui generis.

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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2020-01-15 05:08pm

Trump impeachment voted through to Senate by US House.
The US House of Representatives has voted to send impeachment charges to the Senate, paving the way for the next stage of the trial into Donald Trump.

Members of the House voted largely along party lines, with the Democrats securing a 228-193 victory.

The US president is facing charges of abuse of power over his pressure on Ukraine to investigate Democratic presidential rival Joe Biden, as Trump withheld aid to the country.

He was also charged with obstructing Congress' probe into the case. Trump has labelled the charges a "hoax" and denied any wrongdoing.

Prior to the vote, speaker Nancy Pelosi announced her seven-strong prosecution team for the expected trial.

Flanked by the team, Pelosi said: "Today is an important day. This is about the Constitution of the United States.”

Adam Schiff, chairmen of the House impeachment proceedings, will lead to proceedings, along with Jerry Nadler of the Judiciary Committee.

Also on the prosecution team include: Hakeem Jeffries of New York, Sylvia Garcia of Texas, Val Demings of Florida, Jason Crow of Colorado and Zoe Lofgren of California.

Republicans have an overall majority in the Senate, meaning that votes along party lines once it reaches the chamber could favour Trump.

However new evidence which could be introduced during the hearing could have a significant impact on the trial, ITV News Washington Correspondent Robert Moore has said.
The next stage has begun.
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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Enigma » 2020-01-15 07:15pm

I only caught a glimpse but why was Pelosi going through pens like crazy?
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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Highlord Laan » 2020-01-15 09:17pm

I give it a week tops before Moscow Bitch and the shitbags in the senate decide Cheeto Chimp did nothing wrong.
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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by TimothyC » 2020-01-15 09:18pm

Enigma wrote:
2020-01-15 07:15pm
I only caught a glimpse but why was Pelosi going through pens like crazy?
It's common practice so that they can be given as gifts. If you use a lot of pens, you can give a lot of gifts.
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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Crossroads Inc. » 2020-01-16 12:45am

While I know this will do nothing to change a single Republicans mind... in the long run it can be held up as yet one more thing showing how undeniably guilty Trump is...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politi ... ing-099508

IMPEACHMENT
Lev Parnas: Trump ‘knew exactly what was going on’ in Ukraine

Lev Parnas, the Rudy Giuliani associate caught in the middle of President Donald Trump’s impeachment, said on Wednesday that the president was fully aware of his actions in Ukraine, and leveled a string of potentially damaging accusations against the president’s closest allies, including Vice President Mike Pence, Attorney General William Barr and the House Intelligence Committee’s top Republican

President Trump knew exactly what was going on,” Parnas, who was indicted over an alleged campaign finance scheme in October, told MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow when asked to correct the biggest inaccuracy about his dealings with the president. “He was aware of all of my movements. I wouldn’t do anything without the consent of Rudy Giuliani or the president.”

Speaking in an interview aired on Wednesday night, Parnas said Trump and Giuliani, the president’s personal attorney, directed him to urge Ukrainian officials to publicly open an investigation into a Trump Democratic rival, former Vice President Joe Biden. Parnas asserted that the ouster of Marie Yovanovitch as U.S. ambassador to Ukraine last spring was entirely motivated by her interference in their efforts to start a Biden investigation. And he even apologized to her for his conduct.

Parnas added that Pence, Barr and former national security adviser John Bolton were all aware of or involved in parts of the scheme.

Parnas’ comments to Maddow quickly became fuel for Senate Democrats who said it amplified the need for the Senate to call witnesses and demand documents from the Trump administration during the impeachment trial.

Pushing back on previous defenses from Trump’s team, Parnas said he was sent as an emissary of Trump himself to the then-new administration of the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, and that Giuliani vouched for him. He said he urged the administration to open an investigation into Biden’s son Hunter, who sat on the board of the Ukrainian energy company Burisma, to hurt the 2020 presidential hopeful politically — not to combat corruption, as Giuliani has repeatedly claimed.

“It was all about Joe Biden, Hunter Biden,” Parnas told Maddow in the interview. “It was never about corruption. It was never — it was strictly about Burisma, which included Hunter Biden and Joe Biden.”






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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Solauren » 2020-01-16 07:18am

You know, removal of Trump might not be that far gone a conclusion, even with the Republicans in power in the Senate.

After all, it's widely believed that none of the 'Republican establishment' wanted Trump to win then nomination, let alone the Presidency.

This could be their way to get Trump out. If he's removed from office before the Election, all the Republicans have to do is refuse him the nomination. Now Trump has to run as an independent, and use his own money. Possibly while dealing with criminal proceedings at the same time.

Then we'd get to see Republican attack ads on Trump. Man, that would be amusing.
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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Crossroads Inc. » 2020-01-16 09:03am

Sadly it’s not going to happen. Regardless of how they “really” feel, it’s been shown time and again the GOP are utterly devoted to supporting Trump no matter what.
The rabid an fanatical support of his base is something most republicans could only ever dream of getting. It’s that support, that burning seething unstoppable energy that is the real reason they will never turn on Trump.

It’s been shown plenty of times that with a single Tweet, Trump can ruin the career of even a long established Republican politician.
If the senate actually dared to turn on Trump now, they would be slitting their political throats in a way the country would have never seen before.
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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Gandalf » 2020-01-16 03:01pm

Solauren wrote:
2020-01-16 07:18am
You know, removal of Trump might not be that far gone a conclusion, even with the Republicans in power in the Senate.

After all, it's widely believed that none of the 'Republican establishment' wanted Trump to win then nomination, let alone the Presidency.

This could be their way to get Trump out. If he's removed from office before the Election, all the Republicans have to do is refuse him the nomination. Now Trump has to run as an independent, and use his own money. Possibly while dealing with criminal proceedings at the same time.

Then we'd get to see Republican attack ads on Trump. Man, that would be amusing.
I think distaste for Trump is something that a lot of establishment Republicans play up for some reason. Trump is basically Bush II or Reagan without the pretenses, or McCain without the ability to win the election.
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Re: The Impeachment of Donald Trump.

Post by Napoleon the Clown » 2020-01-16 09:13pm

Solauren wrote:
2020-01-16 07:18am
You know, removal of Trump might not be that far gone a conclusion, even with the Republicans in power in the Senate.

After all, it's widely believed that none of the 'Republican establishment' wanted Trump to win then nomination, let alone the Presidency.

This could be their way to get Trump out. If he's removed from office before the Election, all the Republicans have to do is refuse him the nomination. Now Trump has to run as an independent, and use his own money. Possibly while dealing with criminal proceedings at the same time.

Then we'd get to see Republican attack ads on Trump. Man, that would be amusing.
They've discovered that, with Trump, the quiet part can be said out loud. They fucking love that. They will stick with him until they become convinced that doing otherwise threatens their position of power. Because there are exactly 0 moral, decent people in the GOP.
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