Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Khaat » 2019-06-07 10:31am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-07 05:54am
Edit: Now that Banner seems to have full control of the Hulk, in addition to his first-rate brain, he's actually one of the most damn powerful people in the world. Also, given that his fear of Hulking during sex was a major reason for his leaving Black Widow IIRC, I would have liked to see their relationship addressed, at least a little, now that that was no longer such a concern.
As we are to take the Edward Norton The Incredible Hulk as part of the canon (right?), it isn't that his accelerated heartrate "makes sex dangerous", it's that his blood (and presumably other body-fluids) are actually toxic. Maybe. Definitely charged with something that carries a punch. (Thinking of your cameo, Stan! As well as Sterns. And Fenris, even, or they wasted our time showing the bite drawing blood in Ragnarok.)
TL/DR: It isn't "can't have sex cause more than his wang gets big", it's having "a significant blood-borne communicable disease, with possible genetic implication (so kids are out)".

[edit: movie title]
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Cykeisme » 2019-06-07 12:06pm

Let me know if there's any flaws in my reasoning, or events in the film that I overlooked that contradict my reasoning, but here's a couple of points I gathered:

- The wrist-mounted devices appear to be able to shift a person backwards to an earlier date, and also, it can move the wearer "sideways" into a different alternate timeline.
- But going forwards appears to require an "anchor", in the form of the time travel platform.

I came to the first conclusion because at the end of the movie, they used the platform to zap Captain America back in time with all the Infinity Stones and Mjolnir, and apparently expected him to be able to replace all those objects in all the many separate timelines without needing to repeatedly return back to the platform to get zapped to the next destination.
Therefore, the wrist devices must, at the very least, be able to send a person not just to an earlier point in their own timeline, but also to coordinates in completely separate branches (all the branches created by taking the Stones earlier).

The second conclusion is not certain, but every instance we've seen of them traveling forwards in time (this is invariably a "return trip" back to where they departed) always ends with them landing directly on an active platform. This includes Thanos' ship moving forwards in time while also skipping timelines, to arrive at the platform that was switched on by Bad Nebula.
Thus, it seems possible that jumping forwards requires an activated "listening" platform to be waiting there. Maybe this is because there are many (infinite?) possible futures, so even the insanely capable wrist devices need to know which future to land in.



So my take on Old Man Rogers is this:
After leaving the platform in 2023, he jumped between various timelines where they had earlier taken Infinity Stones (and Mjolnir), replacing them along the way. He does this in order going back and back further in the past (each hop is between different timelines as well). I suppose this means 2014 Morag (Power Stone and Soul Stone), 2013 Asgard (Reality Stone and Mjolnir), 2012 New York (Time Stone and Mind Stone), 1970 SHIELD base (Space stone), in that order.
Then he went back to the late 1940s after WW2 to look for Peggy.
Since the watch can only send a person backwards in time (even if they skip between existing timelines), he must have grown old in that separate timeline, until 2023+ at a calendar date later than his departure from the time travel platform. Then the watch allows him to travel backwards from the Peggy timeline, while also shifting to the "original" timeline, allowing him to go to the bench, where we see the aged Cap.

I could have made some huge mistakes, let me know.

ALSO: How did Cap turn the Space Stone back into the Tesserract, put the Soul Stone back into Loki's scepter, and (I still chuckle) put the Reality Stone back into Jane Foster? Perhaps the Reality Stone is able to reconstruct those housings? If so, you'd expect the Avengers to have done all that before Rogers stepped onto the time machine, and not expect him to try and figure it all out after he's already on the road.

ALSO ALSO: I reckon Cap didn't exactly live a quiet life in the alternate 1940s-2023 timeline. It still contains a whole host of threats and potential threats (and also friends), some of which his foreknowledge can help with neutralizing, and some that are outside his control. That timeline also contains its own Thanos, for example.. although it also has a Thor and Odin. As for his allies from Earth, anything he does, even his mere presence, might have a minor ripple effect that prevents some other individuals from ever being conceived/born in that alternate timeline.. what if there's no Tony Stark, Nick Fury, Jane Foster, or Peter Quill? Simple actions may easily lead to them never existing, especially since they're from the same continent/country.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2019-06-07 03:54pm

Khaat wrote:
2019-06-07 10:31am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-07 05:54am
Edit: Now that Banner seems to have full control of the Hulk, in addition to his first-rate brain, he's actually one of the most damn powerful people in the world. Also, given that his fear of Hulking during sex was a major reason for his leaving Black Widow IIRC, I would have liked to see their relationship addressed, at least a little, now that that was no longer such a concern.
As we are to take the Edward Norton The Incredible Hulk as part of the canon (right?), it isn't that his accelerated heartrate "makes sex dangerous", it's that his blood (and presumably other body-fluids) are actually toxic. Maybe. Definitely charged with something that carries a punch. (Thinking of your cameo, Stan! As well as Sterns. And Fenris, even, or they wasted our time showing the bite drawing blood in Ragnarok.)
TL/DR: It isn't "can't have sex cause more than his wang gets big", it's having "a significant blood-borne communicable disease, with possible genetic implication (so kids are out)".

[edit: movie title]
I prefer the Eric Bana version, where David Banner experimented on himself and passed the results on to Bruce.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-07 09:49pm

Khaat wrote:
2019-06-07 10:31am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-07 05:54am
Edit: Now that Banner seems to have full control of the Hulk, in addition to his first-rate brain, he's actually one of the most damn powerful people in the world. Also, given that his fear of Hulking during sex was a major reason for his leaving Black Widow IIRC, I would have liked to see their relationship addressed, at least a little, now that that was no longer such a concern.
As we are to take the Edward Norton The Incredible Hulk as part of the canon (right?), it isn't that his accelerated heartrate "makes sex dangerous", it's that his blood (and presumably other body-fluids) are actually toxic. Maybe. Definitely charged with something that carries a punch. (Thinking of your cameo, Stan! As well as Sterns. And Fenris, even, or they wasted our time showing the bite drawing blood in Ragnarok.)
TL/DR: It isn't "can't have sex cause more than his wang gets big", it's having "a significant blood-borne communicable disease, with possible genetic implication (so kids are out)".

[edit: movie title]
My mistake- Norton Hulk is one of the few MCU movies I never saw. So I just assumed it was the old "Man of Steel, woman of Klenex" scenario.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2019-06-08 05:45pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-07 09:49pm
Khaat wrote:
2019-06-07 10:31am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-07 05:54am
Edit: Now that Banner seems to have full control of the Hulk, in addition to his first-rate brain, he's actually one of the most damn powerful people in the world. Also, given that his fear of Hulking during sex was a major reason for his leaving Black Widow IIRC, I would have liked to see their relationship addressed, at least a little, now that that was no longer such a concern.
As we are to take the Edward Norton The Incredible Hulk as part of the canon (right?), it isn't that his accelerated heartrate "makes sex dangerous", it's that his blood (and presumably other body-fluids) are actually toxic. Maybe. Definitely charged with something that carries a punch. (Thinking of your cameo, Stan! As well as Sterns. And Fenris, even, or they wasted our time showing the bite drawing blood in Ragnarok.)
TL/DR: It isn't "can't have sex cause more than his wang gets big", it's having "a significant blood-borne communicable disease, with possible genetic implication (so kids are out)".

[edit: movie title]
My mistake- Norton Hulk is one of the few MCU movies I never saw. So I just assumed it was the old "Man of Steel, woman of Klenex" scenario.
Norton and Tyler are not as good as Bana and Connelly as Banner and Ross, respectively. While nothing special, the film did introduce Abomination and Leader; neither of whom have been seen since.

I just had the misfortune of seeing the Tom Hanks flick "Inferno". Normally I wouldn't mention it, save for the fact that the bad guy is basically an expy of Thanos.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Oscar Wilde » 2019-06-09 12:30am

My assumption for weirdness with timelines and alternate universes and whatever has become 'just because Banner says he knows what he's talking about doesn't mean that he does.'
Basically its Doctor Who rules, where it works EXACTLY like its explained except for all the parts that are wrong with the explanation.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-09 12:37pm

Oscar Wilde wrote:
2019-06-09 12:30am
My assumption for weirdness with timelines and alternate universes and whatever has become 'just because Banner says he knows what he's talking about doesn't mean that he does.'
Basically its Doctor Who rules, where it works EXACTLY like its explained except for all the parts that are wrong with the explanation.
Which comes back to the Avengers tinkering with something they do not understand, creating a risk to the entire universe in the process.

Another point- the Ancient One makes a big deal to Banner about needing the Stones back, how vital they are to the universe... so what happens in the reality where Thanos destroyed them?

Theory: Thanos was lying when he said the Stones were destroyed. Nebula was wrong.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Themightytom » 2019-06-09 12:43pm

Maybe the stones can't be permanently destroyed, and would eventually reform or manifest somehow, but if they are taken out of the universe itself into another time line, it's a different story.

Having stones that corporealize but can be destroyed helps me more easily believe that over 14 billion years no one else figured out what they were and used them. All five have to exist at the same time, and be collected with a gauntlet and if they can be destroyed or absorbed, by like Vision, or Captain Marvel, then they won't form a stone for even longer.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Themightytom » 2019-06-09 12:44pm

I mean honestly if they were lying around this whole time it would be like the running gag in Dragonball where, at this point, a galactic warlord is trying to collect them to grow a few inches taller.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-09 12:51pm

Themightytom wrote:
2019-06-09 12:43pm
Maybe the stones can't be permanently destroyed, and would eventually reform or manifest somehow, but if they are taken out of the universe itself into another time line, it's a different story.

Having stones that corporealize but can be destroyed helps me more easily believe that over 14 billion years no one else figured out what they were and used them. All five have to exist at the same time, and be collected with a gauntlet and if they can be destroyed or absorbed, by like Vision, or Captain Marvel, then they won't form a stone for even longer.
Oh, others have figured out what they are and used them. The Collector and the head of the Nova Corps both knew what the Infinity Stones were in Guardians of the Galaxy IIRC. Thor also seemed to know what they were in Age of Ultron, as I recall, which means that Odin likely does as well (and probably Heimdall, if I were guessing, giving that he can see everywhere). Going off her talk with Banner in Endgame, the Ancient One seems to as well. And of course many attempt to use on of the Stones, with or without knowledge of what they are. Its probably not common knowledge, even among "advanced" space-fairing societies, but its not unknown among those who study the mystical and obscure.

Thanos just appears to be the first to successfully unite them all in one place (at least as far as we know).

Edit: note also that some of the Stones have been held in pretty secure places (the Ancient One had one, as did Asgard for a while). Its likely that the powerful figures in the Marvel universe have an agreement, explicit or unspoken, to keep the Stones secured). Thanos had to build up his power and undermine the heavy-hitters to the point where he could take them on before he could get all the Stones.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Oscar Wilde » 2019-06-09 02:33pm

The stones being 'destroyed' means just as Thanos said: They've been reduced to atoms. So they're still THERE but utilizing them in the same way that he had done is more or less impossible, or so the theory goes. I think that one was even confirmed by the Russo brothers.

I really wonder how different the MCU is going to be with most of the core Avengers gone or moved on. Iron Man has always been my favorite but its hard to deny that he didn't go off on an amazing moment. Captain America deserved a happy ending (timeline/universe shenanigans aside,) and while Black Widow kinda got done dirty it was ultimately the end to a redemption arc of her own. My biggest hope with where Thor is going was that it was always part of Gunn's plan because Guardians 1 and 2 are easily my favorite MCU movies and I want his vision for 3.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Solauren » 2019-06-09 05:58pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-09 12:51pm
Thanos just appears to be the first to successfully unite them all in one place (at least as far as we know).
Given the fake Infinity Gauntlet in the Asgard armory, and Hel's evidence of Asgard having been a conquering power at one time, it's possible that Odin assembled all the Stones, but when faced with the Power of the Gauntlet, decided not to use it. (Leading to his schism and imprisonment of Hel).

The Soul Stone being on a world with an Asgardian style name can't be a co-incidence either. Setting up the 'sacrifice to get the Soul Stone' routine would be an excellent way to keep Hel from getting it if she ever got lose.

Come to think of it....
The ruins the Power Stone was in, could be Asgardian.
The Reality stone was clearly imprisoned by the Asgard (Odin even says as much).
The Space Stone was in an old Asgardian church on Earth

The only two stones that was can't see a direct Asgard connection to are the Mind Stone, and Time Stone. That's because someone had already recovered them when we first saw them.

I'd say that Odin had assembled the Stones, realised the danger, imprisoned Hel, then seperated them, hiding 2 of them on Earth (ironically enough, the Time and Space stones....). Possibly giving the Time Stone to the original Sorcerer Supreme to help defend the planet. He then locked up that knowledge so only the King of Asgard can get it...

... and come to think of it, Thanos didn't really start going after the Stones until after he'd encountered Loki. Could Loki have gotten that information while 'King of Asgard', and then shared it with Thanos in a partnership?

"You give me the army I want, and I give you the knowledge to get the Stones you want...."
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Oscar Wilde » 2019-06-09 06:57pm

There's also the implication that he didn't stop doing the shadowy puppermaster thing until Odin and probably Hel were both out of the way.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-10 01:37am

Question: with the Stones gone, what happens to the characters whose power is derived from them (ie Captain Marvel, Scarlet Witch)? Does the fact that their power remains suggest that the Stones have survived in some form?
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Oscar Wilde » 2019-06-10 02:08am

Their POWER exists, its just that the stones are no longer stones (or angry red sludge, whatever.)
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by NeoGoomba » 2019-06-10 01:51pm

The knowledge Cap would have of where and who the stones need to go would make returning them rather simple. All he'd need to do is go see The Ancient One who would help him form a plan to return the stones to their rightful places/times. Frigga and Odin would also be more than happy to help, knowing the power and what is at stake in the stones going missing.

And at just about the end of his journey, I wouldn't be surprised if Cap did his best to make whatever alternate world he ended up with Peggy as better as possible. He'd know that he wasn't damaging the "prime" timeline, simply forging a new one with every action he took. And in the back of his mind, he knew he would return "home" to see the Endgame crew and pass the shield on to Sam after his Peggy had died.

The cross-dimensional adventures of Peggy and Steve would make for one hell of a show.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-10 09:18pm

I just wish that if we were going to have Cap meet fucking Red Skull again, that it had happened on-screen instead of an implied off-screen footnote.

Ideally somehow involving Natasha being resurrected, but at least that meeting should have been shown, I feel. That should have been the end credits scene.

And yeah, I think we'd all watch "Steve and Peggy: Kicking Nazi Ass Across the Multiverse." :D
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2019-06-11 03:28pm

Hilarious Thought: Thanos 'destroying' the stones created a new Marvel Universe where all of the stones are scattered to replay the same events over and over again.
"What has happened before and will again..."

Regardless, I could see the destruction of the stones being used as a gateway to bringing the X-Men back into the fold. All that energy has to go somewhere and we know that it literally creates mutants. Granted, it does make an issue of having to come up with new origin stories that most of the original X-Men really cannot work with.

That said, it would at least get some of the ball rolling early on that. The alternative, is somehow shoe-horning the X-Men into the existing continuity with time travel / alternate universe shenanigans.

Disney and Marvel are being relatively tight lipped on the future phase until after the Spiderman movie so... they could be on the road to do something big afterwards or during Spiderman showing the aftermath of the Infinity War.
I guess the biggest thing to see will be if the MCU will really appreciate and depict how destabilising 50% of the universe disappearing for 5 years and coming back would really cause.

Are the spin-off shows somehow going to be woven back into the fold or will they somehow jump over this shit like AoS or the Defenders ?

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-11 05:40pm

Would that technically make Wanda and her brother, and Captain Marvel, the first mutants in the MCU, since their powers were directly conferred by the Infinity Stones?
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2019-06-14 11:10am

HISHE addresses quite a few of the points discussed here, and a few others besides! :mrgreen:

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2019-06-14 04:09pm

1 - The Nebula thing is pretty spot on. They literally had arm gizmos that let them go back and could easily avoid capture. Of the team members likely to do it, Nebula should be the first since she has already been tortured at the hands of Thanos and should fully understand falling into his clutches is an extremely bad option.

2 - Red Skull, while it is a bit of a joke. The reality is that the Red Skull cameo is a bit of a reveal that genuinely goes nowhere and leaves a very unsatisfactory resolution. The one aspect that could have added some sense of relevance and closure is a meeting between Cap and the Red Skull but that never happens.
Hell, even the characters that do meet him apparently just gloss over this aspect entirely and just kinda ignore it.

3 - Sadly, when I watched this film in the cinema I was left with the same impression and WTF reaction at just how ineffective the bombardment was.

4 - The greater message and point here is really apt. Thanos does not have the Infinity Stones so Thor alone should be more than a match for Thanos let alone the combined effort of Cap, Thor and Ironman. Between the 3 of them the fight should have been ended exceptionally quickly. If anything, this would allow Thanos children another chance to actually do shit. For the majority of this fight, I dont think I noticed them doing anything except maybe the TK guy. At the very least I would have expected TK guy to redeem himself since he got effectively punked in the last film.

5 - Bringing magic dudes into a fight should end things really quickly. No surprise there. Kinda telling that Dr Strange got derailed from making any contribution to the fight and the rest of the sorcerers are used as glorified travel buddies to bring all the forces together and provide a shield.

6 - Wanda is infinity stone infused magic powers that have no real counter.

7 - Captain Marvel is insanely strong - Yup

8 - Time stone is seriously over-powered and used even remotely intelligently would have ended this in Infinity War.


Overall, the big issue seems to be a severe lack of understanding of scale and ignoring 'power levels' for narrative intent. This is consistent with the modern way of doing these films as the writers coming up with a specific scene they want, doing it and then not appreciating what that scene actually means in relevance to the rest of the narrative. Thus, you have non-infinity stone Thanos being just as capable pre- infinity stone power up . Which begs the question, were the stones only giving him the 'gimick' powers and the physical strength etc, was all purely Thanos alone ?

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by Themightytom » 2019-06-14 09:09pm

I feel like HISHE implied that Doctor Strange is actually Loki, with the 'I'll never tell" line because it harkens back to their avengers episode, but that makes no sense...

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PREDATOR490
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2019-06-15 09:10am

I think it is implying he is more like Loki in the sense that you really cannot trust him and he is kinda manipulative.
Doctor Strange straight out said he saw all these futures and then drops the hint to Tony for him to sacrifice himself. Couple that with his statements on the ship when he said he would throw any of them under the bus for the 'greater' good.

Realistically, the audience and everyone else has no clue WHAT Doctor Strange saw and if he is being entirely on the level. However, it certainly does come across as Doctor Strange being less than on-the-level when he can see all these futures to the point he can drop the subtle hint to Tony that will drive Tony to sacrifice himself.
Did it REALLY have to be Tony that sacrificed himself - could someone else not have taken that hit if Doctor Strange had mentioned this ?
Hell, could Strange not have mentioned to avoid Alternate Universe Thanos ?

When you have a character that can reverse time and has fantastic amounts of power like Marvel or Doctor Strange, having them not use it can only come across as being incompetence or deliberate.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by NeoGoomba » 2019-06-17 03:36pm

PREDATOR490 wrote:
2019-06-14 04:09pm
Which begs the question, were the stones only giving him the 'gimick' powers and the physical strength etc, was all purely Thanos alone ?
I think Thanos' physical power was all his own. Whenever he needed to use one of the stones he had to concentrate for a second, make a fist, and then some kind of gesture, all with a corresponding colored-energy based on whatever stone power he used. When he takes on Hulk at the beginning of Infinity War, and the final throwdown in Endgame, there's none of that, just him going all-out brawl/twinblade.
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The Romulan Republic
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Re: Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-20 09:33pm

The alternate How Endgame Should Have Ended video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_nG6DVay5U

Okay, the point that they Spoiler
could have just gone back to the garden before Thanos destroyed the Stones and got them all at once without fucking with all the timelines just makes the actual plot seem all the more stupid.

The villains holding a funeral for Thanos was priceless. Especially Palpatine ending it by saying "No one's really gone." :lol:
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