Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

FAN: Discuss various fictional worlds that don't qualify for SF.

Moderator: Steve

Post Reply
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 17736
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-17 02:41am

LaCroix wrote:
2019-05-16 08:05am
The thing is, any writer is going to be an a bad situation:

You end at season 6 with all existing material used up and the plotlines as they are.

The only guy really albe to write the stories to feel like they were is hemming and hawing for acouple of years, not being able to provide new books to extend the series for a couple more seasons.

You only have some key scenes that he provided you with, and a plotline of everything else and a script of the last episode. So the whole thing is in danger of being unfinished, and people making decisions started to look at it like the first attempt of Lord of the Rings, that resulted in 'Willow' being made, instead, when they just stopped the project.

You get 2 Seasons (13 Episodes) to wrap the thing up and get on with the spinoffs.
Start writing.

They had a kind of outline until the white walkers are killed, and then had to pretty much had to reverse engineer the end towards the battle at winterfell.

It all came down to not enough time for too much plot left over after the battle. Most likely, GRRM had envisioned to have all the white wlker things to happen in the next book, and the march south and the fall of Kings landing, whith Danny'S character arc to be taking up the whole last book.

One book of him usually is enough for almost two seasons worth of epiodes. They had only one left for that, and with pretty much no info on it but rought outlines and the end. that's why you get the sharp turns in character, and stupid errors like overloking the whole iron fleet. Or not placing anwhere close to 20000 men into the visual golden company at the gates an the walls of Kings landing. And why they tried to make stuff look epic and cool, instead of using time for character development apart from some hints (which they used a lot, but to quick and subtle to impact the viewers and make them believe them), since that would have taken a lot of screen time with not moving the pieces forward towards the end.

If they had had a half season worth of extra episodes of setting up the march to the south between season 7 and 8, with the dragons getting ambushed at some point where Denaeris had taken then out on, say, a pleasure ride because she was stressed out (and not thinking about the iron fleet as she was in deep thought) about realizing that Jon was taking over her position by just being a born leader, the scheming of Varys and stuff, and a couple of episodes of her slowly going crazy as her insecurites and guilt fester, ending with Missandei's capture and execution, everything would be better.

Instead, we get about two or three episodes worth of Danaeris in panic as she sees her right to the throne taken from her, her lover rejecting her due to being blood related, him betraying her after she begged him in tears to support her and keep the secret, which resulted in her trusted advisors, both, betraying her and discussing and one of them even commiting treason. (And then the other did as well, releasing a prisoner). And that after a father/oedipus love figure died in her arms after fighting to keep her alive in a desperate last stand, another of her 'children' surviving a battle to then be violently assassinated whle flying along next to her an a supposedly mostly save passage south, which also resulted in her only female friend and confidant she could trust completely and without doubt (and also was a kind of lover in at least the books, if I recall correctly) to be captured, probably mistreated, and then executed right in sight, with her last wish being to 'burn them all for me'.

Stretch this out over twice the episodes with her getting more and more agressive and hostile towards everyone, and it would be a viable character arc, but then people would have complained about the show again crawling at a snail's pace, even if they were to argue the armies would take so long to march down, and they would need to wait for them (which would make Danearis more angry , as she festers in her hate and wish for revenge... and then, when all is over in a few minutes, whit relatively little bloodshed and a clean surrender, she just says 'not enough punishment' and goes off...)

But these people exhausted themselves into somehow wrapping things up in a too tight schedule(of maybe their own making, but who knows if they would have gotten another season out of HBO and the cast, who also already would have wanted to go on onother projects after 10 years), and because it was to be done in secret, couldn't really have it reviewed a couple of times by someone with an outside view, and consented that they did a passable job.

Which they did, given the circumstances. It just wasn't a great job liek the first seasons were.

To me, most of the blame for the lack of quality is on GRRM, for not getting off his ass and giving them the finished works.
They've been off GRRM's material for upwards of two seasons, and while a lot of people have whined about it not being like the books, I still liked it for the most part.

The problem is that they rushed the ending of the White Walker plot, then had to engineer some new last minute conflict to fill the back half of the final season. Except they didn't. Just tying up the loose ends they had should have been enough. Anti-climactic, maybe, but at least it would have been original, to focus on what happens after Armagedon.

Honestly? Cersei should have fallen in season seven. Or, if they didn't want to do that, they should have had her death be a smaller, more personal conflict. Have Arya or Jaime or even the fucking Hound sneak in and assassinate her while Danny's army is outside the city (likely dying in the attempt). Have Yara's fleet take out Euron's, to tie up the Greyjoy civil war. Extend the White Walker war another episode, have the aftermath of the battle be a breather episode that's mostly focussed on sorting out the new/remaining character dynamics while everyone recovers from the war, have the final episode be the assassination of Cersei/Greyjoy civil war/coronation of whoever's left. If you must get Danny out of the way for Jon, or just don't want them co-ruling, have one of them die heroically fighting White Walkers. Or, hell, assaulting King's Landing in the finale. Even kill both of them off (one against the Walkers, one in a reckless grief fueled attack on King's Landing's scorpions), taking both dragons with them, and end the series on an ambiguous note, as the kingdom fragments into new realms and we don't really know what the post-armaggedon world will look like.

Any of these would be better than what they're doing. Just don't try to fit in as many fandom cliches as you can in the last few episodes. Pandering is never a compliment.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7235
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-05-17 03:20am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-17 02:41am
They've been off GRRM's material for upwards of two seasons, and while a lot of people have whined about it not being like the books, I still liked it for the most part.

The problem is that they rushed the ending of the White Walker plot, then had to engineer some new last minute conflict to fill the back half of the final season. Except they didn't. Just tying up the loose ends they had should have been enough. Anti-climactic, maybe, but at least it would have been original, to focus on what happens after Armagedon.

Honestly? Cersei should have fallen in season seven. Or, if they didn't want to do that, they should have had her death be a smaller, more personal conflict. Have Arya or Jaime or even the fucking Hound sneak in and assassinate her while Danny's army is outside the city (likely dying in the attempt). Have Yara's fleet take out Euron's, to tie up the Greyjoy civil war. Extend the White Walker war another episode, have the aftermath of the battle be a breather episode that's mostly focussed on sorting out the new/remaining character dynamics while everyone recovers from the war, have the final episode be the assassination of Cersei/Greyjoy civil war/coronation of whoever's left. If you must get Danny out of the way for Jon, or just don't want them co-ruling, have one of them die heroically fighting White Walkers. Or, hell, assaulting King's Landing in the finale. Even kill both of them off (one against the Walkers, one in a reckless grief fueled attack on King's Landing's scorpions), taking both dragons with them, and end the series on an ambiguous note, as the kingdom fragments into new realms and we don't really know what the post-armaggedon world will look like.

Any of these would be better than what they're doing. Just don't try to fit in as many fandom cliches as you can in the last few episodes. Pandering is never a compliment.
I'm curious, is there any acceptable way, in your mind, for Dany to become the villain? Not that HBO didn't portray her even handedly, but we have seen that Dany has problems when being in charge. I'm not sure if she's meant to be a Bush analogue or not, but as we saw with Meereen, she had no plan once the place was conquered. We saw an educated slave, a teacher, forced into manual labor and physical abuse from the younger freed slaves, due to the fact that he was older and easier to prey upon. Dany didn't institute schools, or a guild for former slave educators, or anything like that. She let him be reenslaved by his former masters.

Danenerys, sadly, is not a proactive ruler when it comes to the problems of the realm, unless it involves feeding them to her dragon(s). I wish her character development included that. Instead, what we see is that if she has Tyrion in place, the problem will mostly be solved until it requires violence again. That makes me think that she's a bit like Robert in that way: she is serious about an issue when she can solve it with force of arms, but doesn't seem to have patience when it comes to the long logistical issues of being the monarch. And isn't Bran the Builder, having a grand plan for Westeros and building up infrastructure in an FDR style way.

Not that there seems to be anyone alive in Westeros who plans to do that. Maybe Tyrion, if instructed by the king or queen to do so. Maybe Jon Snow, when he was the leader of the Night's Watch, at least was motivated towards being proactive about the Wall, instructing resources towards rebuilding the forts on the wall. But then that requires someone pointing to Jon about the problem. Did we Dany doing such actions when she ruled a city? I don't recall anything like that. If you do recall them, please point them out to me, but as far as I can tell, Dany wants to rule because it was the dream she was raised with, and she fights for it, no matter who is in the way.
Image

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 17736
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-17 05:03am

Probably no evil Danny plot would really appeal to me without reservations, because it would always feel like pandering to a fandom cliche. But there are ways that the build-up could have been better handled, without feeling like a last-minute reversal or invoking sexist tropes. I think that "Danny and Jon are forced to become rivals by conflicting circumstances/different values, with neither being really right or wrong" could be a compelling tragedy, if written very well.

And while I don't see much from Danny in terms of infrastructure specifically, she is proactive on abolishing slavery, and confronting her enemies. Those aren't the only things that matter to being a ruler, but they do matter. I can see her, in conjunction with Yara, getting rid of the Ironborns' slavery in all but name. I can see her being more insistent on protecting the rights of women, and giving women more power in her regime. This would all be consistent with her established actions.

I actually think that Westeros's military might atrophy under her, though, as she's so reliant on the dragons (and the realm's forces have been bled dry by years of civil war and the White Walker invasion, while the Unsullied are dwindling in number and cannot be replaced without violating one of Danny's core tenants).

Danny (or Jon) on the throne, with Jaime in command of the military, Yara in command of the ships, and Tyrion in control of improving infrastructure/finances, and Arya in charge of espionage would be an unbeatable team.

(Edit: I also dispute that Danny simply wants to rule because she was raised to think it was her birthright. IIRC, she didn't give two shits about ruling Westeros at the start- that only started after being Khalesi gave her a taste of power, and the events of the end of book/season one showed that she could only keep herself and the people she cared about safe if she had power.)

Anyway, if I were given the reigns after the White Walker defeat, without a whole season or two to work with, and told "wrap this up in three episodes without character-assassinating anyone, while filling out those episodes", here's my plan, more or less:

Episode 8.4: Aftermath of the Long Night. Funerals for the fallen. Character interactions. Danny and Jon hash out the whole incest/heir thing, without either of them acting evil or crazy. Both have legitimate points. Keep Arya shooting down Gendry, as its actually in-character (Though I found Gendry suddenly being in love with her and wanting to marry her after a one-night stand fueled by pre-battle nerves rather ridiculous- it only really makes sense to me if he was in love with her before recent events, which... ew. Unless Arya's just that good in bed, despite it being her first time.). Or really anything but them getting married and having Arya settle into the life of a conventional lady. Keep Bronn showing up and switching sides, though I'd probably write the scene differently (or you could do a shock twist, have him assassinate someone, for a surprise character death just when everyone seemed safe- maybe even kill Danny instead of Jaime/Tyrion, or try to kill Danny and someone else takes the arrow). Keep Jaime leaving, but rather than "I used Brienne as a one-night stand before going back to die with my true love/sister", have it be Jaime leaving because he doesn't want Cersei to target Brienne. though maybe save that for the next one. Keep Sansa having doubts about Danny- that seems in-character too. Have winter, actual winter, not just end with the Night King's defeat, so the movement of armies is largely curtailed. A largely non-action episode. Maybe have a scene where they have to put down some bandits, or something, because despite the victory, the North is so wrecked that most people outside King's Landing are starving/resorting to cannibalism, and banditry looks like a real appealing option. I'd also have some people doubt that Arya killed the Night King, because let's face it, this is a deeply misogynistic setting, and she doesn't look like an obvious bad ass to one who doesn't know her and hasn't seen her in action. Jon is hailed at the Prince That Was Promised by some, Danny by others, as the Lord of Light gains new followers in the wake of the battle. Maybe start the march South at the end (see below). A transitional episode.

Episode 8.5. Some months after the Night King's defeat. The weather has improved enough for at least small units of troops to move. Danny's frustrations at the delay are now more justified. She insists they push south, pointing out to Jon that they need the food stocks in the South if the North can rebuild/survive. This episode is the march South to King's Landing. By land, not by sea, since didn't Danny loose most of her fleet already? Rather than just ignoring the question of the Twins (which are presumably still held by Lannister-aligned Bannermen, even if the Freys are dead), either have Arya sneak in again and let the army in, or have it be a negotiated surrender. This could be the last time where Danny flirts with "Burn them all"- I feel that her character turned a corner when she chose to go north and fight, but under the pressure of the situation she might be tempted to relapse. Have Jon and Arya find her another way. The episode ends with Danny's army camped outside King's Landing.

Episode 8.6. The finale. After two fairly slow breather/set-up/character drama episodes, save all the post-White Walker razzle dazzle and fan service for this one. King's Landing is under siege. Since I'm not going the Mad Queen Danny route, we need a new way in. They decide to send a small team in to infiltrate the city. The Hound and Brienne (if she doesn't stay with Sansa) go. Bronn goes, if he switches sides. Arya insists on going. Jaime goes, either to kill Cersei or make one last effort to convince her to stand down. I really want to see these five playing commando together, even if it is fan-servicy. Either have Danny's dragons assault the city (not burning everyone, just hitting the legitimate military targets, maybe with some unintended collateral damage) and don't judge her so harshly for it, or let Tyrion reclaim his status as the smartest man in the room, and use his knowledge of King's Landing to help Danny's troops break into the city through a weak point, and/or sneak the assassin team in (Varys could help here too- tell me he doesn't know a hundred secret passages into King's Landing). The Mountain catches the strike team. Kills Varys, fulfilling Mel's prophecy (you can also have Varys turn traitor and be executed, its not out of character for him). Possibly kill Bronn. Hound saves Arya, Hound vs. Mountain fight, mutual kill. Jaime slips away in the fighting and finds Cersei, who reveals that she's planning to blow up the city with wildfire as Danny's troops march in, killing everyone and leaving the Red Keep and Euron's fleet as the only things standing (note that even at this point, I'd have Cersei be a bit more lucid and goal-oriented than Aerys- her plan is vicious, but she intends to win, not just burn everything out of spite). In a moment of desperation, Jaime kills her, coming full circle. I'm thinking now that Brienne finds him over Cersei's body. This scene would mirror Jaime's Kingslaying in his youth- in both cases, Jaime murders his sovereign to prevent them from burning King's Landing, but in this case its far more personal, and rather than being cocky about it, Jaime is visibly shattered by it. And as in the Kingslaying, Jaime is found at the scene by an "honourable" warrior (Ned, Brienne)- but where Ned did not know Jaime, and judged him on the superficial facts, Brienne does know Jaime, and forgives him. This brings Jaime's journey full circle. If you want a tear-jerker ending, have Jaime previously wounded by the Mountain/Lannister guards, living just long enough to stop Cersei, and dying in Brienne's arms.

Euron sees the writing on the wall and tries to run. Or maybe even crib from canon and have Euron shoot down a dragon. Cue last minute surprise arrival by Yara's fleet- she's retaken the Iron Islands while Euron was (literally) fucking around in King's Landing. Yara engages Euron's fleet as King's Landing falls. Euron dies fighting Yara.

I'm uncertain as to whether I'd have Jon or Danny or both die in the finale. A nice happily ever after with everything wrapped up in a neat bow doesn't feel right for this show, and its hard to see Jon being on board with incest. You could have one die to Scorpion fire and the other having to go on and rebuild. Or both going out, and the Realm fracturing with no clear ruler, leaving an ambiguous and uncertain future, but one at least a bit more hopeful than before, with the White Walkers gone and women and other previously marginalized people having a little more of a leadership role (Sansa ruling the North with Arya and Brienne as her chief warriors/advisers, and Yara ruling the Iron Islands, with Tyrion ruling the Westerlands and Gendry the Stormlands).
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 17736
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-17 05:15am

So yeah, my idea for post-war rulership is:

Jon/Danny on the throne: both are big ideas people, driven by their emotions, charismatic, but lacking in subtlety at carrying out the details.

-Tyrion demoted to Master of Coin. Leave the finances and infrastructure to him, keep him away from military matters, where he sucks.

-Jaime in command of the Royal Army. Which means making him Hand unless you rearrange the traditional allocation of duties, as implausible as this is for a Danny regime.

-Yara as Master of Ships. Or alternately Ser Davos.

-Arya as Master of Whispers. She's more loyal than Varys (at least to Jon).

-Brienne as Commander of the Kings/Queensguard. Or alternately as Master of Laws, with Grey Worm in command of the Queensguard.

-Grand Maester... well, we'd probably all like Sam, but I feel like he should be made the new head of House Tarly at this point.

-Gendry ruling the Stormlands.

-Sansa the North. Give her the Riverlands as well, to further tie the North to the rest of the Realm.

-Jaime the Westerlands.

-Yara the Iron Islands.

-The Reach divided between the Westerlands, Crownlands, and Stormlands. The Crownlands portion can be used to resettle the Dothraki Danny brought to Westeros (it seems to be good land for a cavalry-based people).

-Since Jaime gets the Westerlands, give Tyrion Dorne. He'll be able to handle the constant intrigue that seems to go on there.

-Mereen remains a part of the Crownlands.

-Pursue military alliance with Braavos- see if you can get them behind a joint campaign to conquer and annex the other slave states of Essos, if they relapse to their old ways.

Edits: Some more thoughts on how I'd end the last three episodes- Yara should talk with Sansa or Bran, who will tell her about Theon's heroic death. Marriages- not sure, I don't really care for the shipping here as a rule. Coronations/successions- depends on who lives. Not sure what role Bran plays now- goes off to Three-Eyed Raven, I guess.

The core of my ideal post-series rulership scheme is Danny or Jon on the throne, Tyrion in charge of infrastructure/finances, and Jaime in military command. That is a trifecta that would shatter opposition and remake the realm.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 17736
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-17 06:14am

Okay, apparently the showrunners were offered more money and 10 episodes instead of six by HBO, and declined:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/ ... 95c239788a
We are now marching toward the final episode of Game of Thrones ever, and while we don’t know exactly how it will end, the events of the past two seasons have taken us to a place where it seems…difficult to extract a worthwhile ending, to say the least.

Some of the problems are specific decisions the showrunners made, now free of the guiding light of Martin’s books, but the further we’ve gotten into these final seasons, it has become clear to almost everyone that a core problem with the ending of Game of Thrones is that the idea that the final two seasons should be 7 episodes, then a year break, then 6 episodes.

Sure, we may get to where we’re going and it could be a passable ending. But there is no benefit to arranging the show this way, instead of having a more standard ending with two or three seasons that were the traditional ten episodes in length. No benefit to anyone except the showrunners, David Benioff and D.B. Weiss who want to move on to other projects.

No one wanted this except them. HBO wanted more. Here’s an EW interview from 2015, back when the showrunners were threatening to end the series after seven seasons:

“This is the hard part of what we do,” sighs HBO programming president Michael Lombardo. “We started this journey with David and Dan. It’s their vision. Would I love the show to go 10 years as both a fan and a network executive? Absolutely…If they weren’t comfortable going beyond seven seasons, I trust them implicitly and trust that’s the right decision—as horrifying as that is to me.”

More recently, HBO offered the showrunners more money and time to at least add more episodes to the final season, after eight seasons, the last two being shortened, was concocted as a compromise.

"HBO would have been happy for the show to keep going, to have more episodes in the final season," Benioff said. "We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that. As much as they wanted more, they understood that this is where the story ends."

And then there’s George RR Martin, who has always thought the show was cutting too much from the books. A long time ago he said the 10 episode seasons should be more like 13, and more recently he’s said that the show could continue well, well beyond eight seasons. Here’s him at the Emmys last year:

"I don't know," Martin said. "Ask David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] when they come through. We could have gone to 11, 12, 13 seasons, but I guess they wanted a life.”

And finally there are fans, who have now seen the results of this spaced-out, shortened final pair of seasons, and most everyone believes that the show has felt painfully rushed as a result. How so? It’s tough to know where to even start.

The Jon and Daenerys relationship, what should be the most important one of the show, has been massively rushed, with the two not getting together until the finale of season seven, and yet Jon has become slavishly devoted to her in just a few episodes’ time, making their entire rollercoaster ride of a relationship (ending now with Dany going full Mad Queen) feel way, way too fast.

There are the bent-out-of-shape character arcs, which have flung these characters toward a specific end goal, ignoring that the path to get there does not make much sense. In episode 2 of season 8, Jaime is hanging out with all his new friends in Winterfell, knighting Brienne. In episode 5, he’s throwing away six years of an arc to run away to be with Cersei as she dies because nothing else matters but her. In episode 2 Dany and Jon are riding dragons in the snow like they’re in a Dreamworks movie. In two more episodes, Dany loses half her army, Jorah and Missandei, learns the truth about Jon and develops a taste for genocide. One complaint from last episode is not that these characters turns happened, it’s that not enough time was given to make them feel earned, hence why these two characters (among others) have had arcs that have given fans whiplash.

Then there’s the now infamous teleportation of the last few seasons. Game of Thrones has always been about these long, epic journeys from place to place, which is where a load of character development happens, and twists and turns derail characters along the way. But after six years of that, the show realized it was running out of time because of this self-imposed deadline, and suddenly everyone is warping all around the map instantly, erasing that entire part of the show that was a key aspect of it before. This results in some plot holes, but also a general sense of disorientation and like everything is moving at breakneck speed. And usually, this is done in service of just hammering us with battle after battle, with maybe one episode of downtime in between them. It’s felt exhausting, and like the show is trying to sprint its way through a marathon, losing steam far before it should.

It is easy to see how the last 13 episodes of the series could have been 20-30 episodes if the showrunners had decided to take their time, taking an unlimited budget from HBO, respecting the opinion of the series’ creator, and doing service to fans who would loyally show up for a decade or more if asked. Instead, they wanted to be done, and rather than leave and hand the show off to someone who actually wanted to be there, they’re just blasting through it, and clearly, it’s suffering as a result.

Follow me on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Read my new sci-fi thriller novel Herokiller, available now in print and online. I also wrote The Earthborn Trilogy.
Normally I'd applaud a degree of economy and efficiency in a showrunner, and I don't agree with all the "WAAAHHH, its not exactly like the books" crap, but this frankly makes it look like what I suspect it is- that they're phoning it in to rush through to the finale as quickly as possible because they no longer give a shit. Which is frankly unprofessional.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29058
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Vympel » 2019-05-17 08:32am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-17 06:14am
Normally I'd applaud a degree of economy and efficiency in a showrunner, and I don't agree with all the "WAAAHHH, its not exactly like the books" crap, but this frankly makes it look like what I suspect it is- that they're phoning it in to rush through to the finale as quickly as possible because they no longer give a shit. Which is frankly unprofessional.
The idea that they'e rushing because they just don't care or whatever pays absolutely no regard to just how long it takes to make a season of this show. There's a reason they took a year break to make Season 8 after Season 7 came out, and there's a reason Season 7 only had 7 episodes instead of the usual 10. There was literally not enough time to make a 10 episode season of the story they wanted to tell in the 'standard' period they had to make all the previous seasons. Paul Tassi doesn't reckon with this whatsoever.

You could argue that they should've just taken extra time and had taken 2.5 or 3 year breaks in between seasons to Do What Needed To Be Done, but virtually no one making this 'they rushed through because their hearts weren't in it' argument seems to acknowledge that this would be the result of what they're asking for.

And frankly, Tassi's salt is showing in the article. The characterisation is especially egregious:

"No one wanted this except them. HBO wanted more. Here’s an EW interview from 2015, back when the showrunners were threatening to end the series after seven seasons:"

'Threatening'? The article's from before Season 5 even premiered. Instead of the you know - far more likely - "this was years ago and the showrunners didn't yet have a concrete idea of what exact number of episodes would be required" - the most negative possible spin is put on it, like somehow Season 8 itself was forced on them. It's just the most horseshit take, like these dudes were just going through the motions while busting their ass on 7 hours of ridiculously over-the-top expensive television for two years straight.

In the final analysis, they've fumbled the ball and made a miscalculation. That's all.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 17736
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-17 08:43am

Funny, they didn't need three years to make the earlier seasons. All ten episodes apiece of them.

Anyhoo...

Holy fuck! The petition to remake the last season has reached half a million signatures, most in the last day (its actually now up to over three quarters of a million):

https://www.vox.com/2019/5/16/18627915/ ... o-season-8

And even though I don't believe that shows should pander to fan demands as a rule, and I know that a lot of the signatories are probably just misogynists bitter about Arya killing the Night King and/or people who've hated the show for years for not being just like the books who are piggy-backing on the Daenerys outrage, and I don't think this is a realistic demand or one that should necessarily be listened to, I admit that there's a petty part of my soul that gets a warm fuzzy feeling from just watching the petition page and seeing the number of signatures tick up. :twisted:

Of course, part of me is also wondering if this is going to turn out to be more manufactured divisions originating in Russia or the Alt. Reich. Christ, I hate this "post-truth" world. :(

However, note also that for all the uproar over The Last Jedi, the petition to have it struck from canon has garnered barely 100,000 signatures in all this time, despite Star Wars having an even larger fan base than Thrones. So that gives some sense of the scope of this cluster fuck. And a lot of the comments on the petition directly reference the last two episodes (where the biggest complaint is the trashing of Daenerys), so I don't think this is just some angry book purists or Alt. Reich trolls. This is genuine anger from the fan base at a serious betrayal of a beloved eight season series in the final three episodes.

Emelia Clarke has now weighed in publicly, as well:

https://www.elle.com/culture/celebritie ... -reaction/
Warning: Game of Thrones spoilers ahead.

Emilia Clarke broke her silence on Daenerys becoming the Mad Queen on last night’s Game of Thrones…and she did it with a spot-on (and good-humored) Instagram post. The actress shared a photo of herself this morning with her Khaleesi wig off and a giant bottle of champagne, writing, "This is what it took not only to shoot ep5...but to watch it too! #🤯 @gameofthrones @hbo #soshockingitblewmywigoff #😳 #🤢"


Everything about that caption is so accurate.

For context, in last night’s Game of Thrones, Dany ignored the surrender bells of King's Landing and pursued the Red Keep, burning everything in its path with her dragon, Drogon. By doing so, she killed Jaime, Cersei, the Mountain, the Hound, Qyburn, and many more innocent people. She also killed Varys earlier in the episode.

Game of Thrones' showrunner D.B. Weiss explained that initially, Dany hadn't meant to kill everyone—but something snapped when she heard the surrender bell. "I don't think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did," he said in Game of Thrones' Inside the Episode feature. "And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It's in that moment on the walls of King's Landing, when she's looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal."

Clarke warned everyone before that Dany's fate was hard for her to take. "I went for a very long walk the first time I read the final season," she told Stephen Colbert recently. "I read it, and I couldn’t quite handle it. So I just walked out—it should’ve been raining—it was just that kind of a moment, like, I’m in a daze, and I don’t know what’s going on, existential crisis. And I just went for a walk and didn’t bring anything. I walked around London for two hours, going, ‘Ah.’ If you saw me, that’s what I was doing."
And here's Stephen Colbert's take on people regretting naming their children after Daenerys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAAJeVdJCo0

Normally you'd expect a mention of such a big show's finale to trigger excessive applause from the audience. Instead, you could almost hear a pin drop when he mentioned that the finale was airing Sunday, interspersed by a couple lonely claps/whoops that quickly died in awkward silence.
Stephen Colbert wrote:"I will say you should always let a fictional character's full story arc play out before you saddle your child with that name. Just ask my nephews Saruman and Chancellor Palpatine."
:D

Mark my words: unless there is a spectacular last-minute reversal (which would probably still feel forced and rushed at this point) in the finale, this is going to go down in history as one of the worst, if not the worst, television series endings ever made.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29058
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Vympel » 2019-05-17 08:47am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-17 08:43am
Funny, they didn't need three years to make the earlier seasons. All ten episodes apiece of them.

Anyhoo...
That's totally irrelevant. The previous seasons were nowhere near the scale, expense and complexity of Season 7 and Season 8. They took the time they took because they needed to take the time, not because they felt like fart-assing about and doing less work. You literally don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 17736
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-17 08:49am

Vympel wrote:
2019-05-17 08:47am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-17 08:43am
Funny, they didn't need three years to make the earlier seasons. All ten episodes apiece of them.

Anyhoo...
That's totally irrelevant. The previous seasons were nowhere near the scale, expense and complexity of Season 7 and Season 8. They took the time they took because they needed to take the time, not because they felt like fart-assing about and doing less work. You literally don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Season six and seven were both pretty large scale and complex. But let's say you're right that they needed that much time. Then they should have taken it, or passed the reigns to someone who could. You have tens of millions of fans who have been waiting, often for more than a decade, to see this. You're so close to the end. Its not like the show is going to run indefinitely- you have one more season and its done. Put in the effort to get it over the finish line intact. Or quit and hand it off to someone who will/can.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7235
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-05-17 08:52am

I will note that the third episode of season 8 took them two months alone to film. That's a big shoot, and that isn't accounting for fight choreography. Then we had another big battle with last Sunday's episode. I have no idea how long it took, but two episodes of such magnitude will obviously take longer than a normal season of television.
Image

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 17736
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-17 08:56am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-05-17 08:52am
I will note that the third episode of season 8 took them two months alone to film. That's a big shoot, and that isn't accounting for fight choreography. Then we had another big battle with last Sunday's episode. I have no idea how long it took, but two episodes of such magnitude will obviously take longer than a normal season of television.
Note that in my opinion, the fall of King's Landing should probably have been a smaller, more personal struggle (though by ending the war with the White Walkers in mid-season, they kind of forced themselves to try to come up with more big battles so the whole show didn't feel anti-climactic). I'd have likely pushed the White Walker defeat to later in the season, then had the finale be assassinating Cersei, followed by the city's quick capture/surrender with minimal bloodshed.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 17736
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-17 09:01am

You can get away with an anti-climax finale on a good show- Star Trek: DS9 did it. You can't get away with anti-climax half-season, because sadly most fans aren't that open to violating conventions.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29058
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Vympel » 2019-05-17 09:02am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-17 08:49am
Season six and seven were both pretty large scale and complex.
Season 6 is nowhere near the scale and complexity of Season 7 or 8, and its well known that the production of Season 6's Battle of the Bastards episode was a drawn out, punishing fiasco they barely managed to pull together as it is. As for Season 7 - again - there's a reason Season 7 is 7 episodes and not 10. That's the whole point.

The Long Night alone was the product of an unprecedented 55-day long shoot. Exclusively at night. With 750 extras. This is not normal for television.

Also, Season 6 is 10 episodes, yes. By another metric, its 562 minutes long. Season 7 is 7 episodes - and 442 minutes long. Season 8 is only 10 minutes shorter than Season 7 - 432 minutes long. In other words, Season 6 might be three episodes longer than 7 and four episodes longer than 8, but in terms of episode length its only about 2 hours (i.e. slightly more than 2 standard episodes, give or take) longer than both.
But let's say you're right that they needed that much time. Then they should have taken it, or passed the reigns to someone who could. You have tens of millions of fans who have been waiting, often for more than a decade, to see this. You're so close to the end. Its not like the show is going to run indefinitely- you have one more season and its done. Put in the effort to get it over the finish line intact. Or quit and hand it off to someone who will/can.
I don't have a problem with that criticism if people knew enough about what they were talking about to make it. But the kind of Johnny-Come-Latelys to the quite-out-in-the-open production information about why they took this much time in the first place are completely unaware of it, and it results in clueless, unfair criticisms.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 17736
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-17 09:17am

What's unfair about saying that this close to the end, they should have taken the time to get it right? Or passed it off to someone else who could, or scaled the thing down, if they couldn't?

Anyway, this article's (which defends Danny's character derailment, but that aside) title indirectly gave me an idea:

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a274 ... nt-person/

What if it really isn't Danny Burning Them All? What if she's been replaced- by a Faceless Man? She was killed off-screen and replaced, some time during episode four, as part of a long game by the series' real final villains- the Faceless Men. Maybe they want to keep the endless warfare going so they'll have more contracts. Maybe they don't want a Targaryen restoration. Maybe Danny's actions in Essos unwittingly interfered with some goal of their's. In any case, they represent the shadowy forces trying to maintain the status quo. Arya picks up on it because she knows their methods, and this leads into Arya having a final confrontation with the Faceless Men, and assassinating the imposter Daenerys. Hell, make it Jaqen Hagar for extra oomph. With Danny's madness, Jon's uselessness, and Arya killing the Night King, they've already pretty much made Arya the real hero of the show. Follow through on it and have it end with Arya's arc coming full-circle, and defeating the Faceless Men. The show can end with Arya saying goodbye to King Jon and heading off on a journey back to Essos (I can't see her settling down to a marriage or a post in Court) to fight the shadow war against the Faceless Men.

Okay, I know that isn't going to happen. But by God, I think I just thought of the only way to semi-save the show at this point.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29058
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Vympel » 2019-05-17 09:22am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-17 09:17am
What's unfair about saying that this close to the end, they should have taken the time to get it right? Or passed it off to someone else who could, or scaled the thing down, if they couldn't?
I thought I was clear on that - the part where they imply that the seasons are shorter because they were lazy and seem conveniently unaware that the seasons are shorter despite everyone working just as hard and harder on them.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 17736
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-17 09:25am

Vympel wrote:
2019-05-17 09:22am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-17 09:17am
What's unfair about saying that this close to the end, they should have taken the time to get it right? Or passed it off to someone else who could, or scaled the thing down, if they couldn't?
I thought I was clear on that - the part where they imply that the seasons are shorter because they were lazy and seem conveniently unaware that the seasons are shorter despite everyone working just as hard and harder on them.
Not lazy, exactly. I'm sure its a lot of work even to do what they did. Probably more than I could do in their place. But its also pretty clear that they weren't really invested in seeing it through, and were trying to wrap it up quickly. So, not lazy. They just didn't care any more.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29058
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Vympel » 2019-05-17 09:29am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-17 09:25am
Not lazy, exactly. I'm sure its a lot of work even to do what they did. Probably more than I could do in their place. But its also pretty clear that they weren't really invested in seeing it through, and were trying to wrap it up quickly. So, not lazy. They just didn't care any more.
The idea that you simply wouldn't care about quite possibly the most influential work you've ever done - a pop-culture icon that you painstakingly built over 8 years - and that this lack of care would somehow manifest in spending literally a whole extra year on a season than you normally would - is barmy. If they actually wanted to phone it in, they wouldn't have written scripts that required these sorts of lengths.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 17736
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-17 09:34am

Maybe. Maybe not. People do weird things. I can't read their minds. But if they wrote longer and more complex scripts than they were willing or able to properly execute, that's also a strike against them.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29058
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Vympel » 2019-05-17 09:42am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-17 09:34am
Maybe. Maybe not. People do weird things. I can't read their minds. But if they wrote longer and more complex scripts than they were willing or able to properly execute, that's also a strike against them.
They clearly miscalculated at the very least, in several respects.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 17736
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-17 09:50am

Indeed. Even on a pragmatic as well as artistic level. It seems clear to me that a lot of this season was written with cheap pandering/fanservice in mind- which makes it all the more striking that they've managed to produce probably the most ferocious fan backlash I've ever seen one episode from the end of one of the most popular and critically acclaimed shows ever made.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29058
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Vympel » 2019-05-17 10:18am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-05-17 09:50am
Indeed. Even on a pragmatic as well as artistic level. It seems clear to me that a lot of this season was written with cheap pandering/fanservice in mind- which makes it all the more striking that they've managed to produce probably the most ferocious fan backlash I've ever seen one episode from the end of one of the most popular and critically acclaimed shows ever made.
I've said it before but IMO their 'original sin' is a mode of storytelling that favors shock and surprise over literally any other mode of engaging an audience, over and over again. If making characters act in odd or outright stupid ways that don't make sense - or crafting scenarios that are odd and don't really make sense - will produce a surprise or a shock- they'll do it. It started at the tail end of Season 6 and has gotten progressively more obvious since. And its like that same impulse is what caused them to fumble this pretty pivotal story point. I think most people really unhappy with this episode wouldn't have a problem with it if they had set it up and executed it better they did.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/

User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11916
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm
Contact:

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2019-05-17 04:49pm

Vympel wrote:
2019-05-17 10:18am
It started at the tail end of Season 6 and has gotten progressively more obvious since. And its like that same impulse is what caused them to fumble this pretty pivotal story point. I think most people really unhappy with this episode wouldn't have a problem with it if they had set it up and executed it better they did.
That's hitting the nail on the head. I would have been fine with it if it had been executed better. The issue isn't "is Dany capable of burning cities," its that having people throw down their swords and surrender usually defuses her blood lust instead of enhancing it. If, as an example, a hit team tried to kill her or a dragon (say moving a dragon death around) under cover of the surrender and that set her off, most people would be a lot happier with the episode.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.

Librium Arcana

User avatar
Ziggy Stardust
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2888
Joined: 2006-09-10 10:16pm
Location: Research Triangle, NC

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2019-05-17 06:41pm

Vympel wrote:
2019-05-17 08:47am
That's totally irrelevant. The previous seasons were nowhere near the scale, expense and complexity of Season 7 and Season 8. They took the time they took because they needed to take the time, not because they felt like fart-assing about and doing less work. You literally don't know what the hell you're talking about.
I don't disagree with your general logic, but the show-runners themselves said in that interview that they chose the number of episodes based on feeling that was how many they needed to tell the story. To my knowledge, they have never explicitly cited production complexity in their decision to shorten the show (though they have cited those factors in other decisions, like not using the Dire Wolves much, etc.). I'm not saying that those things were IRRELEVANT to their decision-making mind you, I just don't think it was quite as dominant a factor as you are implying. Hell, if you go back and read the original interview that the Forbes article is quoting, Benioff & Weiss are implying that they made the decision for the number of episodes as early as season 3, based on what they thought was necessary to finish the story. Yes, of course some of the things they are orchestrating are very technically complicated and require a lot more effort to shoot and produce then comparatively simple scenes of people talking in a room. I just don't think production schedules were their #1 concern when deciding to shorten the show. I think they just miscalculated and were too stubborn to change their minds (although, admittedly, maybe production challenges are what later inspired them to not add more episodes, even if it wasn't their original intention).

I don't know, I threw out my back and am on some muscle relaxants so I might be rambling incoherently right now. I'm not even sure anymore whether I was trying to agree or disagree with you. So in the grand tradition of SDN I'll pretend that's your fault instead of mine and call you something rude, like ... I don't know, goat molester?

User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29058
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by Vympel » 2019-05-17 09:22pm

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
2019-05-17 06:41pm

I don't disagree with your general logic, but the show-runners themselves said in that interview that they chose the number of episodes based on feeling that was how many they needed to tell the story. To my knowledge, they have never explicitly cited production complexity in their decision to shorten the show (though they have cited those factors in other decisions, like not using the Dire Wolves much, etc.). I'm not saying that those things were IRRELEVANT to their decision-making mind you, I just don't think it was quite as dominant a factor as you are implying. Hell, if you go back and read the original interview that the Forbes article is quoting, Benioff & Weiss are implying that they made the decision for the number of episodes as early as season 3, based on what they thought was necessary to finish the story. Yes, of course some of the things they are orchestrating are very technically complicated and require a lot more effort to shoot and produce then comparatively simple scenes of people talking in a room. I just don't think production schedules were their #1 concern when deciding to shorten the show. I think they just miscalculated and were too stubborn to change their minds (although, admittedly, maybe production challenges are what later inspired them to not add more episodes, even if it wasn't their original intention).

I don't know, I threw out my back and am on some muscle relaxants so I might be rambling incoherently right now. I'm not even sure anymore whether I was trying to agree or disagree with you. So in the grand tradition of SDN I'll pretend that's your fault instead of mine and call you something rude, like ... I don't know, goat molester?
SND board culture is great :lol:

I'm pretty positive that there have been other interviews with D&D talking about why they took this extra time and the seasons shorther being tied to what they were trying to execute, but I don't think you're really disagreeing with me - it's clear that no matter what was foremost in their minds, they miscalculated how long they'd need to sell everything properly.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 17736
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-05-18 01:02am

Imperial Overlord wrote:
2019-05-17 04:49pm
Vympel wrote:
2019-05-17 10:18am
It started at the tail end of Season 6 and has gotten progressively more obvious since. And its like that same impulse is what caused them to fumble this pretty pivotal story point. I think most people really unhappy with this episode wouldn't have a problem with it if they had set it up and executed it better they did.
That's hitting the nail on the head. I would have been fine with it if it had been executed better. The issue isn't "is Dany capable of burning cities," its that having people throw down their swords and surrender usually defuses her blood lust instead of enhancing it. If, as an example, a hit team tried to kill her or a dragon (say moving a dragon death around) under cover of the surrender and that set her off, most people would be a lot happier with the episode.
For me, at this point, the problem is basically two-fold:

First, circumstances/context: Danny the Mad Queen is a well-established theory/narrative in the fandom, but one that I've always felt was thinly-justified, built on cliches/oversimplification and double-standards, and probably motivated at least partly by sexism. So any move by the show in that direction is likely going to come off as pandering to bad (and sexist) fanfic to me, and immediately alienate me. Maybe that's not entirely fair to the creators. But the circumstances make it difficult to do. In addition, "women are too emotional/crazy to be good leaders" is an extremely old sexist trope, so having yet another female leader go the Mad Queen route is going to have to be really well-justified to not seem sexist.

The second issue is that this feels like an about-face for Daenerys. Because Daenerys has been confronted by these issues before, and not long ago. She burned the Lannister army, and the Tarlys, but she also chose not to burn King's Landing. She chose to try instead to negotiate, and then to go north first, risking everything to put the realm ahead of the throne. So this is an about-face to an extent on her recent character development.

Now, people can regress. People who have been tempted by darkness can be suddenly pushed over the edge. I recognize that. But it nonetheless feels abrupt, probably because what I perceive as a reversal in course comes very quickly, right at the end of the show. It feels like a contrived bit of pandering or way to get manufacture some last minute conflict/get Danny out of the way for Jon's ascension.

I will say that I do have a bit more empathy now for the people who say that The Last Jedi ruined Luke, that his actions there were out of character and a reversal of his past character development. And in that case, Luke's actions did feel like an abrupt change, because we never got to see much of what happened between the two trilogies to lead him to that point, even though (as I've repeatedly pointed out) it is entirely possible for someone to change over the span of thirty years, or to resist darkness once but still be tempted by it later. But you know... I would still say that TLJ handled it better. The comparison is actually very illuminating as to why Game of Thrones' handling of it is so bad, in my opinion. There, Luke's fall from grace feels sudden and out of character because the changes to his character happened mostly off-screen. Like Daenerys, he has been tempted by darkness before and triumphed over it, and is a hero beloved by many fans. At the same time, again like Daenerys, that temptation implicitly still exists, and is arguably foreshadowed by his absence in TFA, and his past vulnerability to temptation when those he loves are threatened. And it is certainly possible for even a good person to change for the worse.

However, in Luke's case, we have that interval of time between the Luke of RotJ and the Luke of TLJ. Luke's change happens somewhere over a course of thirty-plus years, not a few weeks or months. Luke's mistake is also consistent with how canon has previously depicted the temptation of the Dark Side- it shows you something you fear, and offers you a solution if you give into your fear and rage and lash out, but like all deals with the Devil, it is treacherous, and likely to lead to the very outcome you feared in the first place. If there is any indication that Daenerys's power carries a similar corrupting effect, I do not recall it, except in the sense that all power can corrupt. Finally, Luke's fall is actually much smaller than Daenerys's. Luke is tempted to lash out in a moment of fear, to kill a single man who he has a duty to love and care for in order to prevent an evil he foresees from coming to pass. He doesn't do it, but by then the damage is done, and Luke spends the rest of his life bitterly regretting and running from that mistake. Daenerys, in contrast, gives into the temptation to lash out, not at one man to whom she owes her protection, but at an entire city full of innocent people, who she kills not to prevent some future disaster but purely out of spite, because people they never met but who happened to rule over them hurt her, and she has the power to hurt them in turn. From an out of universe perspective, meanwhile, Daenerys's turn plays into an overtly sexist narrative about how women are unfit to rule. Luke's, obviously, does not. And, perhaps most importantly, Luke is allowed to ultimately redeem himself, facing his fears and returning for one last hurrah. As of this writing, it seems very unlikely that Daenerys will enjoy the same redemption, or that it could be done without feeling like just another forced, rushed about-face.

Anyhoo, the petition to remake the season has passed 900,000 signatures. The rate of new signatures has fallen off quite a bit, but I expect it to get another boost Sunday/Monday if the finale sucks all the balls I expect it to. It'll cross a million easy, possibly 1.5 million if the finale is disappointing or controversial enough.

I hope its enough to persuade Disney to fire these idiots off Star Wars outright, or at least keep them on a very short reign.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the US and Canada.

Post Reply