FALLOUT 76

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bilateralrope
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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by bilateralrope » 2018-12-27 10:50am

It's not that the physical goods aren't worth the price. That's what everyone has come to expect.

The problem is that Bethesda specifically advertised one thing then delivered another. Blatant false advertising that I'm pretty sure is illegal in several countries that enforce their consumer protection laws.

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Jub » 2018-12-27 11:17am

bilateralrope wrote:
2018-12-27 10:50am
It's not that the physical goods aren't worth the price. That's what everyone has come to expect.

The problem is that Bethesda specifically advertised one thing then delivered another. Blatant false advertising that I'm pretty sure is illegal in several countries that enforce their consumer protection laws.
With the rum at least that isn't a Bethesda issue. Even if what they were given to show off is different from that final shipped product that's on the 3rd party bottling co that purchased the rights. It doesn't excuse Bethesda not enforcing some level of quality control but both the bag issue and this rum issue seem to be issues of neglect rather than malice.

My guess is that somebody at Beth realized they could make extra bucks licensing things, but didn't exactly want to spend time managing these projects so they signed very simple lazy deals and didn't think of them again until end users started complaining. Had they been paying attention they would have known what a canvas bag cost versus what the deal said they were paying for and realized something was going to give. The same goes for the rum.

It's typical Bethesda lack of community outreach combined with marketing companies not being upfront about costs and quality of finished goods meeting to screw over the fattiest, noisiest of nerds. Just like with people bitching about the Atomic shop I have little sympathy. Nobody is forcing you to pay real money for cosmetic goodies/collectibles if you choose to do so knowing that they have never been worth it don't whine when things end up even less worth it than you're used to. This has been a long-term trend that fat nerds have been supporting they should have built a coop for the chickens to roost in.

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-27 11:27am

Doesn't the "nobody is forcing you to buy x" argument apply to most things in a consumer economy?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by bilateralrope » 2018-12-27 11:31am

Jub wrote:
2018-12-27 11:17am
don't whine when things end up even less worth it than you're used to.
How am I to read this as anything other than you don't like it when people are complaining about a company lying to them ?

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Jub » 2018-12-27 11:31am

Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-27 11:27am
Doesn't the "nobody is forcing you to buy x" argument apply to most things in a consumer economy?
Yes, but some items are commonly known to be worth less than others. Physical goods coming with games being a prime example.

This is especially true when this isn't even the first time Bethesda has included especially shit physical items with their games. Or have people forgotten the quality maps that came with Skrim so quickly?

Did I get screwed or is this map just not cloth

Maybe don't bitch that a company is screwing you when you are the same group that has supported them screwing you for years.

-----
bilateralrope wrote:
2018-12-27 11:31am
Jub wrote:
2018-12-27 11:17am
don't whine when things end up even less worth it than you're used to.
How am I to read this as anything other than you don't like it when people are complaining about a company lying to them ?
Perhaps by remembering that this isn't the first time Beth has screwed fans with garbage collectors editions, unlike the rubes that bought 76's overpriced collectors edition. But hey, Skyrim was 'good' so we'll forgive and forget but because we don't like 76 suddenly this is the first time collectors editions have ever falsely advertised the quality of their included goods. For fucks sake do you really expect me to feel sympathy for idiots who get duped multiple times by the same scam?

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-27 11:36am

Jub wrote:
2018-12-27 11:31am
Yes, but some items are commonly known to be worth less than others. Physical goods coming with games being a prime example.

This is especially true when this isn't even the first time Bethesda has included especially shit physical items with their games. Or have people forgotten the quality maps that came with Skrim so quickly?

Did I get screwed or is this map just not cloth

Maybe don't bitch that a company is screwing you when you are the same group that has supported them screwing you for years.
Commonly known, to whom? By what standard are you making that assertion?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Jub » 2018-12-27 11:41am

Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-27 11:36am
Commonly known, to whom? By what standard are you making that assertion?
If you can find out the quality of Bethesda's last collectors edition with a single Google query that's common knowledge in my books. People should really do some very basic research before dropping an extra $140 on something.

I'd hold the same opinion if somebody bought an 'expensive' watch without looking into the company or bought a 'diamond' ring at a pawnshop for a too good to be true price. If you can't afford to eat the loss do your research before buying the product. This is very simple logic.

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-27 11:44am

So to hell with false advertising laws. Fascinating.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Jub » 2018-12-27 11:53am

Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-27 11:44am
So to hell with false advertising laws. Fascinating.
If a company has a history of selling you shit for premium prices and has done so consistently for over a decade now, maybe don't buy from them unless they show evidence of making some sort of change. Oblivion's collector's edition had a shitty paper map, Skyrim was advertised with a map that was 'burlap like', FO76 advertised a 'canvas bag' if you didn't notice their marketing getting shittier and shittier I don't know what to tell you. It's all 100% public knowledge that's a quick Google query away, don't whine to me if you're lazy and get burnt because of it.

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-27 11:59am

Jub wrote:
2018-12-27 11:53am
If a company has a history of selling you shit for premium prices and has done so consistently for over a decade now, maybe don't buy from them unless they show evidence of making some sort of change. Oblivion's collector's edition had a shitty paper map, Skyrim was advertised with a map that was 'burlap like', FO76 advertised a 'canvas bag' if you didn't notice their marketing getting shittier and shittier I don't know what to tell you. It's all 100% public knowledge that's a quick Google query away, don't whine to me if you're lazy and get burnt because of it.
Or if a company has a history of advertising x and selling y, maybe institute some sort of punishment through a governmental organisation like Australia's ACCC. That way people can shop with confidence and not have to research every purchase because the responsibility is on the company actually doing the advertising.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Jub » 2018-12-27 12:04pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-27 11:59am
Or if a company has a history of advertising x and selling y, maybe institute some sort of punishment through a governmental organisation like Australia's ACCC. That way people can shop with confidence and not have to research every purchase because the responsibility is on the company actually doing the advertising.
If things worked that way or even had a chance of working that way, I'd be all for it. Unfortunately, they don't work that way over here in North America and there is no trend to indicate that we're moving in that direction any time soon. Given that they don't, and have never, worked like that I'm going to say that people may want to do their research before spending money they don't have on things they don't need.

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by TheFeniX » 2018-12-27 12:17pm

Just because 'Murrica et al doesn't take consumer protection laws seriously, especially when it comes to entertainment, doesn't absolve scammers of (any) guilt. No one is arguing people shouldn't be doing more research, but that Bethesda is just as culpable (actually, WAY more so) than the consumers no matter how you try to spin it as "you should know better" or "it's not worth X" or "they hired other companies to handle the scamming."

You have the right to scam yourself out of your own money. Others don't have the right to scam you.

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Jub » 2018-12-27 12:32pm

TheFeniX wrote:
2018-12-27 12:17pm
Just because 'Murrica et al doesn't take consumer protection laws seriously, especially when it comes to entertainment, doesn't absolve scammers of (any) guilt. No one is arguing people shouldn't be doing more research, but that Bethesda is just as culpable (actually, WAY more so) than the consumers no matter how you try to spin it as "you should know better" or "it's not worth X" or "they hired other companies to handle the scamming."

You have the right to scam yourself out of your own money. Others don't have the right to scam you.
If you're spending money on something that everybody agrees isn't worth it even when the quality is 'high' can you be scammed at that point? Is it even a valid complaint that your garbage is slightly stinkier than usual this time? Similarly, if you buy something from a dollar store that has a no refunds or exchanges policy and it doesn't work out of the box, have you been scammed or are you just an idiot?

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by TheFeniX » 2018-12-27 12:48pm

Jub wrote:
2018-12-27 12:32pm
If you're spending money on something that everybody agrees isn't worth it even when the quality is 'high' can you be scammed at that point? Is it even a valid complaint that your garbage is slightly stinkier than usual this time? Similarly, if you buy something from a dollar store that has a no refunds or exchanges policy and it doesn't work out of the box, have you been scammed or are you just an idiot?
You can both be an idiot AND be scammed. In fact, being an idiot makes being scammed easier (duh).

If I collect.... whatever, your example: you buy Diamond rings. The "real" ones and whatever "no blood" "not man-made" whatever bullshit: You're dumb. Buying Diamonds for the prices they are sold is dumb. They are worthless. It's just carbon. WHATEVER. You pay $4000 for a market-rate $4000 diamond (that's actually worth $0.10). You're scamming yourself. Do the research and you'll see how dumb you are. The seller is under no obligation to inform you of how stupid you are being.

If someone advertises a "real" diamond, shows pictures, shows all these OTHER (more important) people with their 101% "real" carbon rocks then sells you a piece of glass:" you are both stupid and have been scammed. And the scammer is both ethically and legally WAY more culpable than you are.

It's THAT simple. If you're dumb enough to leave your wallet on the table while you go piss at a restaurant and someone takes it. Yes, you're an idiot. But do you honestly thing we should go easier (legally and ethically) on the thief just because someone made his job easier? Fuck NO. Because decent people see a wallet left on the table and RETURN IT. Scumbags take advantage of idiots.

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Jub » 2018-12-27 01:03pm

TheFeniX wrote:
2018-12-27 12:48pm
You can both be an idiot AND be scammed. In fact, being an idiot makes being scammed easier (duh).

If I collect.... whatever, your example: you buy Diamond rings. The "real" ones and whatever "no blood" "not man-made" whatever bullshit: You're dumb. Buying Diamonds for the prices they are sold is dumb. They are worthless. It's just carbon. WHATEVER. You pay $4000 for a market-rate $4000 diamond (that's actually worth $0.10). You're scamming yourself. Do the research and you'll see how dumb you are. The seller is under no obligation to inform you of how stupid you are being.

If someone advertises a "real" diamond, shows pictures, shows all these OTHER (more important) people with their 101% "real" carbon rocks then sells you a piece of glass:" you are both stupid and have been scammed. And the scammer is both ethically and legally WAY more culpable than you are.
I don't feel sympathy for those people. If you play shitty games you win shitty prizes. Don't spend money you don't have on things you don't need and then whine that what you got isn't worth the money. Nothing they were selling would have been worth what you paid for it; if it was they would have charged you more.

If you're going to spend money on loot crates and shiny rocks, maybe you shouldn't have it at all.
It's THAT simple. If you're dumb enough to leave your wallet on the table while you go piss at a restaurant and someone takes it. Yes, you're an idiot. But do you honestly thing we should go easier (legally and ethically) on the thief just because someone made his job easier? Fuck NO. Because decent people see a wallet left on the table and RETURN IT. Scumbags take advantage of idiots.
That's different, leaving your wallet unattended is dumb and you shouldn't do it, but you can't exactly go anywhere without one most of the time. If you drive, it's likely your ID is in your wallet and the place you're driving to will require you to use a card or money from that same wallet. I'd be all for ditching these and getting a chip in my arm that does keys/banking/ID/medical info/etc. in one but people would rather lose their wallet semi-regularly than let 'T3h Gubormint' track them.

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Jub » 2018-12-27 01:28pm

Is ESC: from Planet priced at $34.99 a scam?

http://youtu.be/E3fsZHN6Z9Q

(Embedding wasn't working for some reason, the usual https fix wasn't working with our youtube tag)

Would it be a scam if Steam reverted to its old no refunds policy? Is it the developer's fault if people continue to buy games they know they'll hate for reasons known only to those consumers?

How much should we expect the consumer to protect themselves via minimal research and understanding of the product they are buying? Is it my fault if I don't put a "Warning: Do not shower with hairdryer" sticker on my obviously electric hairdryer and somebody dies? Why are we assuming that grown ass adults with education, jobs, cars, guns, and votes are too stupid to properly figure out if they'll enjoy a thing before they buy it based on past things the same company has produced?

If these adults are too stupid to buy things why do we give them the option to buy things without supervising them? Shouldn't big brother stop me from spending my last few dollars on a scratch ticket or booze instead of food and rent? Can I get a refund when I don't win at the lottery/casino?

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by TheFeniX » 2018-12-27 01:55pm

Jub wrote:
2018-12-27 01:03pm
I don't feel sympathy for those people. If you play shitty games you win shitty prizes. Don't spend money you don't have on things you don't need and then whine that what you got isn't worth the money. Nothing they were selling would have been worth what you paid for it; if it was they would have charged you more.
It's not about sympathy. It's about ethics.

If you bought electronics off eBay back in the day, you were very likely to get scammed. I had so many friends gets scammed but I never did (yay me.......). Were my friend dumb? Yes. Did I mock them? Yes, because I'm an asshole. But, and I once again have to reiterate my point: that doesn't make it any less shitty or illegal what the people on eBay were doing or what eBay was allowing them to get away with: fraud.
If you're going to spend money on loot crates and shiny rocks, maybe you shouldn't have it at all.
Don't be so smug, I'm sure there's moronic shit you buy that isn't worth the X it's Y'ed on. But that's your right. It's another right to be sold what was advertised. And just because consumer protection (regarding entertainment) has NOT caught up with the times doesn't make what retailers try to do anymore ethical. Your inability to understand this borders on lolbertarianism.

The fact is, if I coughed up money for this shit in Texas (since they are physical items) what they have done with both the Rum and tote-bag is illegal.
That's different, leaving your wallet unattended is dumb and you shouldn't do it, but you can't exactly go anywhere without one most of the time. If you drive, it's likely your ID is in your wallet and the place you're driving to will require you to use a card or money from that same wallet. I'd be all for ditching these and getting a chip in my arm that does keys/banking/ID/medical info/etc. in one but people would rather lose their wallet semi-regularly than let 'T3h Gubormint' track them.
You're getting tangled up in details and missing the point: we should hold those who take advantage of others more culpable than the victims. Because your entire line of reasoning is flawed and (frankly) pretty immoral because it leads to shit like those people who scam the elderly because they are easy targets.
Jub wrote:
2018-12-27 01:28pm
Is ESC: from Planet priced at $34.99 a scam?

Would it be a scam if Steam reverted to its old no refunds policy? Is it the developer's fault if people continue to buy games they know they'll hate for reasons known only to those consumers?
Holy fuck, are you trolling or on someone's payroll?

Was the game advertised with slick pre-rendered or in-game assets that didn't make it into the release (like Alien: Colonial Marines)? Your other examples aren't even worth responding to. Just, hey man, do me a solid here: when you're spewing shit back at me and want more examples or something, just ask yourself this if it's cool or not:

WERE THEY FUCKING LYING ABOUT IT?

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Jub » 2018-12-27 02:25pm

TheFeniX wrote:
2018-12-27 01:55pm
WERE THEY FUCKING LYING ABOUT IT?
Does any form of advertising ever tell the truth?

Car commercials where no real car was ever filmed. The action depicting illegal stunts on a closed course. The CGI car itself featuring the European model with accessories that cost hundreds to thousands of dollars over the base model. Then at the end just blah easy payments of blah if you meet this entire novel worth of conditions and were born on a Tuesday. If that's all kosher, I don't see the issue.

Or cleaning product commercials that show a product disappearing in a single light wipe but with illegible text on the bottom stating that this stain was soaked with products x, y, and z for 12 hours before the single filmed wipe took place. If all of this is perfectly within truth in advertising laws

How about toothpaste commercials using actors with either professionally whitened teeth or where the entire scene was touched up in post-production? Do those graphics lie about the game *cough* product that you're getting and the effects it will have on your own teeth?

Speaking of graphics how is showing games with CGI trailers any worse than fast food ads that show a burger you will not and cannot ever get from their stores, not an issue? Fuck man, you'd better start a crusade if you think video game advertising is somehow worse than every other commercial out there.

All advertising is lies anyway, why nitpick a specific form of lie when literally every other ad does worse?

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by bilateralrope » 2018-12-27 10:19pm

Jub, some questions:
- Do you want the lying to continue ?

- If you want the lying to stop, how does telling the people complaining about it do anything but make it less likely that the lying will stop ?
Jub wrote:
2018-12-27 11:41am
If you can find out the quality of Bethesda's last collectors edition with a single Google query that's common knowledge in my books. People should really do some very basic research before dropping an extra $140 on something.
What specific Google queries turn up information about Bethesda's previous lies ?

Because I've had several people claim that some information is found with a simple Google query. Then it turns out that the query is either: Not something anyone would reasonably expect to search for without knowing the information exists or something that doesn't turn up the results they claim it would.

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Jub » 2018-12-27 11:06pm

bilateralrope wrote:
2018-12-27 10:19pm
Jub, some questions:
- Do you want the lying to continue ?

- If you want the lying to stop, how does telling the people complaining about it do anything but make it less likely that the lying will stop ?
Has whining about it changed the lying thus far? No.

Does voting with one's wallet change companies behavior? Yes.

The simple way to stop people lying is to not buy obvious shit based on transparent lies.
What specific Google queries turn up information about Bethesda's previous lies ?

Because I've had several people claim that some information is found with a simple Google query. Then it turns out that the query is either: Not something anyone would reasonably expect to search for without knowing the information exists or something that doesn't turn up the results they claim it would.
Skyrim Burlap Map, is a pretty easy one.

Skyrim Collector's Edition Terrible also works and leads to this.

http://whatculture.com/gaming/10-worst- ... d-editions

Having a memory that goes back more than 10 seconds and being able to remember how bad a companies 'special editions' have been tends to help a lot.

fallout 4 colector's edition sucks leads to:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments ... is_a_huge/

https://www.trustedreviews.com/opinion/ ... nt-2926374

Given that the last two releases that came with physical goodies were God awful perhaps people should have realized that this was going to be the same.

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Jub » 2018-12-27 11:10pm

Less biased searches like "Fallout 4 Special Edition Worth It" also turn up good results.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fallout ... e&ie=UTF-8

The same query with skyrim instead of fallout 4 also gives the same.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CH ... gDWS0WiiCw

I don't think these are unreasonably hard searches to make.

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by bilateralrope » 2018-12-28 10:29pm

Jub wrote:
2018-12-27 11:06pm
Has whining about it changed the lying thus far? No.
It got Bethesda to produce and ship canvas bags to everyone who bought the collectors edition.
Does voting with one's wallet change companies behavior? Yes.

The simple way to stop people lying is to not buy obvious shit based on transparent lies.
Which requires people to know about the lie. Which means you need to keep reminding them about the lies. Which the complaining does.

By telling people to stop complaining, you are telling them to stop telling other people about the lies.
Skyrim Burlap Map, is a pretty easy one.
That's one of those searches I don't expect anyone to make unless they know there is a problem.

Consider that this is thread is the first time that I've heard anything about the Skyrim collectors edition. I've never had any interest in Skyrim, so I mostly ignored it unless Bethesda did something really bad like paid mods.
Skyrim Collector's Edition Terrible
fallout 4 colector's edition sucks
These still seem a bit too specific a search for someone who doesn't know how bad the previous collectors editions were.
Why did you use "terrible" for one search but "sucks" for another ?

How many times have you done a search using "terrible", "sucks" or something similar before a game purchase in the last year ?
Jub wrote:
2018-12-27 11:10pm
Less biased searches like "Fallout 4 Special Edition Worth It" also turn up good results.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fallout ... e&ie=UTF-8
Most of the page are results talking about the game of the year edition and praising it. The last result on page 1 is shilling the Fallout 76 collections edition. So that search doesn't reliably turn up the useful results.
The same query with skyrim instead of fallout 4 also gives the same.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CH ... gDWS0WiiCw
Every result on the first page is saying that the Skyrim special edition is worth it. One result was praising Bethesda for bringing mods to console, which I don't think is worthy of praise now that we have seen how that turned out.
I don't think these are unreasonably hard searches to make.
Those two are reasonable searches. But the results I'm getting don't seem to be useful in avoiding Bethesda's lies.

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Civil War Man » 2019-01-15 11:47am

So I decided to catch up on the comedy of errors in the new year, and found out such gems as nukes not working because the devs forgot to account for the year changing and players getting access to a secret developer room that contained every item in the game, including ones that have not been released yet, plus, just to add to the comedy, a human NPC (though one that just appears to be there to act as a target dummy for item testing).

Of course, the discovery of the dev room apparently caused a massive increase in item duplication, to the point where there are stories of dupers getting their hands on hundreds of damage and explosive bobbleheads, then one-shotting the Scorched Queen or players in Pacifist Mode. This in turn has apparently led to players forming in-game vigilante gangs to hunt down and kill item dupers which, ironically, actually sounds like a pretty accurate portrayal of a post-apocalyptic society.

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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by TheFeniX » 2019-01-15 12:46pm

Every FallScrolls game has a developer cell (for Skyrim and F4, you can "coc qasmoke" in the console) that is disconnected from the main game. Read: there is no legit way to access them. I would be interested to see how it was done, but people are hording the info except to say it was not done with the console. I'm assuming cheat engine, but the Creation Engine is chock full of weird shit. Only recently in Fallout 4 (due to speedrunners) it was found that their save system is so shitty at what it does, by quick loading at just the right point during a load screen, you can have the game maintain the gear/quest progress of the last main save, but the location data of the last quick save. Though found in Fallout 4, this bug exists in every FallScrolls game back to Morrowind.

For the guy to ask "why is this in the public release?" shows a total lack understanding on Beth titles because they don't really remove shit and of course they are going to have continuous fuckups that wouldn't matter in a SP game versus an MP one setup to make them more money after the fact.

FYI: The F76 test cell is identical in layout to the Fallout 4 one. Not surprising.

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Jub
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Re: FALLOUT 76

Post by Jub » 2019-01-15 12:53pm

Frankly the duping, while an issue, wouldn't bother me if the currently used method didn't crash the server. I play this as a single player game so other playet's having loot doesn't much bother me.

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