Not a concession. Just saying that I'm not going to waste my time repeating points you refuse to debate honestly.Patroklos wrote: ↑2017-09-29 02:24amBlah Blah Blah, you cowardly whiny concession is noted.The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2017-09-28 08:38pm Patroklos, I tried to get through that extremely long-winded piece of bull shit but... fuck it.
You started this discussion out by asking that I treat you civilly (followed immediately by an accusatory implication of dishonesty on my part). I have tried to converse with you in a reasonable manner and treat you like an adult.
You have responded by, among other things, repeatedly misrepresenting my arguments, misrepresenting or outright ignoring/contradicting canon evidence to laughable extents (the Death Star shot wasn't supposed to be hard? Really? ), broken-record debating, nitpicking, absurd standards of evidence (Rey is only shown flying a speeder twice on-screen, so we must assume that she rarely flew it ), and repeated accusations of dishonesty against me. You have also insinuated that I am myself a misogynist because I am putting Luke on a pedestal, and implied that my arguments in defence of Rey's characterization are based on masturbatory fantasies (because a man could never like a female character for reasons other than her body, am I right?- I'd say that implication says more about you than it does about me).
I could repeat all my points, go through your argument line by line, but I have no reason to believe that you would do anything other than continue to ignore and distort my arguments.
As to the accusation of dishonest, I'll say what I always say when someone falsely tries that line against me: either put your money where your mouth is and report me, or retract the accusation.
As to your argument that the writing of TFA is inferior to A New Hope's: I agree. But it does not follow from that that Rey is a "Mary Sue", by any definition*. Her actions and abilities are all explicable within the established rules of the Star Wars universe, and you more or less acknowledged this yourself. The film's failing in depicting her abilities is that it requires the audience to fill in some of the blanks themselves (if failing that is), but its not hard to do if you're at all familiar with the franchise.
Rey is neither an author insert, nor is she an implausible character or one who bends the setting around her (at least no more than other high-end Force users). Ergo, not a Mary Sue.
*Well, other than "capable female character who makes Alt-Reich man-children uncomfortable, anyway.
But what the hell... since I'm already replying to this drivel, and I have a few hours to spare, I'll give it one more shot.
Trying to redirect this thread from a debate on my arguments to another "let's bash TRR" circle-jerk. I've never seen that before.You just don't or can't address the arguements so we are back to outraged petulant TRR, a defense mechanism as predictable and effective as a rolled armadillo on a highway.
And what arguments? That making the Death Star shot wasn't supposed to be hard, so you can claim that Rey is a "Mary Sue" while Luke isn't? That my views on Rey are potentially motivated by masturbatory fantasies? That Rey's performance as a pilot is "objectively better" (your words) than any other person in Star Wars (with no statistical evidence to back this bold assertion up), and that if I disagree with you, I'm a liar? That "I'm a nine year old who failed to finish some pod races" is a better qualification for a fighter pilot than anything Rey had? That because I'm an admitted Luke fan, my arguments regarding Luke are invalid due to bias, and I'm a sexist who's placing Luke on a pedestal over Rey? That I think the sole point of A New Hope's ending is that Luke is awesome, because I acknowledge that he made a difficult shot? Claiming that I have failed to address your points when I have done so at length, and that I have therefore conceded (only not really, so that you can also imply that I am violating board rules)? Persistently telling me what I am saying or thinking, rather than addressing my actual statements? Etc., etc. Those brilliant arguments?
And hey, I mean that sincerely. They really are brilliant comedy.
You've also persistently downplayed Rey's experiences, demanding an unreasonable standard of evidence for her ability (to the point of attacking me for saying she routinely piloted a speeder because we only saw her doing it once or twice on-screen). While also downplaying Luke's achievements, in contradiction to canon, so that you can hold him to a different standard than Rey.
You have likewise contradicted yourself on weather working with space craft is significant, both noting that it is a potentially useful qualification if you have piloting experience as well, and then saying that it means nothing. You also misconstrued (deliberately or accidentally) my point in stating that Anakin's feats are canon. Its not because I thought that the canonicity of Rey's accomplishments are in doubt (though given that you apparently miss major plot points like "the Death Star shot was hard", I suppose I may have given you too much credit), nor is it because I think "canon=good writing". Its because the cornerstone of my entire argument is that Rey's abilities are not out of synch with the established norms of what high-end Force users are capable of, so citing canon examples of similar feats is highly relevant to establishing that. I thought that was how we were supposed to debate here? By citing canon evidence that supported our claims?
Of course, your response is to basically say "If you're using Episode One as evidence, you lose."
You also dismissed Anakin's feats as "slapstick" and "he was on autopilot", ignoring that it wasn't just the computer doing everything and it was still pretty damn impressive (not to mention ridiculous) for a nine year old who'd never flown anything but a pod racer before. And that "it was slapstick" doesn't change the fact that its a canon precedent for this kind of use of the Force.
Now, you're right that TMP had a less serious tone. And you're right that its badly written, and if I was arguing for the literary merits of TFA's script, comparing it to TPM would indeed be doing my argument no favors. Again, I'm not saying TPM or TFA were brilliantly written. But I am saying that their is ample precedent that this is how the Force works, and so you can't treat Rey as a ridiculous outlier, or "Mary Sue", by the standards of her fictional universe, without employing a double-standard.
Their are also at least a couple of points in this debate that are still somewhat ambiguous for lack of evidence:
First, weather or not Rey had prior piloting experience beyond flying a land speeder. I vaguely recall some dialog to that effect, and you seemed to acknowledge this (though perhaps their was a misunderstanding), so I didn't think that this point was in dispute until you reversed course and started mocking me for equating piloting a speeder to piloting a space craft (of course, if Anakin flies a pod racer, that apparently does qualify as suitable experience for flying a star fighter). An exact quote would be helpful, I think, though I don't have a copy of TFA on hand.
Second: Weather there is such a thing as "latent Force ability". I think that this is at the least highly implied by various pieces of canon, most notably young Anakin's feats, but I will acknowledge that I can't prove off-hand that it is inarguably canon. More evidence is needed on this point as well.
I will also accept two points that you made in this debate without qualification:
First, that training on civilian aircraft (like Luke did) is a useful way of training a fighter pilot. But it doesn't much effect my estimate of weather Rey was qualified, nor would I say that that is sufficient explanation for Luke's demonstrated ability at Yavin (since he'd presumably never flown an X-wing or flown in combat before). Thus, it doesn't really affect the validity of my argument.
Second, that other films, such as A New Hope or The Matrix, do put more time into setting up their protagonists' abilities. That said, just because TFA's script is a bit thin doesn't mean that Rey is a Mary Sue. Their are, to the best of my recollections, basically two serious definition of "Mary Sue" that have been offered in this thread: an author self-insert, or an idealized/over-powered character. Rey is clearly not the latter (or at least there is zero evidence presented for her being so), and the latter is disproven by demonstrating that Rey's abilities are not out of step with the established standards for her universe, which is why that is the cornerstone of my argument.
Is the script very well constructed? No. And if I were defending the merits of TFA's script relative to the OT, that would be a problem for me. But I'm not. What I am saying is "the script was poorly written" doesn't equal "Rey is a Mary Sue." Her abilities generally have reasonably consistent explanations if you are familiar with the Star Wars universe, even based on the limited evidence available in TFA. The audience has to work a little harder to fill in the blanks, which at some point would become a failing on the part of the writers, but that doesn't make her a Mary Sue.
In short, I think that part of the problem is that we're operating from different definitions of what constitutes a "Mary Sue".
I'd also point out, however, that The Matrix and A New Hope were both the first film in their franchise, and thus had a greater need to establish how their universe worked and lay the ground work for audience suspension of disbelief. Holding TFA, the seventh Star Wars film, to the same standard in terms of the amount of set-up needed, is unfair.
As for the personal insults and attacks... attacking my personality because its an easier way to score points on this board than attacking my arguments. I've never seen that before.
I'm not conceding. I never intended to concede. I simply refuse to waste time endlessly repeating arguments I've already made, which you have not refuted with anything other than dishonest nitpicking and ignoring of canon evidence. I'm not going to spend another hour trying to convince you that, yes, the Death Star shot was supposed to be difficult.That's not how this board works, however. By the rules of this board you have to say it. Whithout all of the meally mouthed self congratulatory virtue signally woe is me I'm so oppressed self indulgent quibbling to caveat your way out of losing the argument.
But again, if you feel that I am violating board rules, put your money where your mouth is and report me, instead of playing mod.
I brought up sexist double-standards because it is one of the reasons, ONE of the reasons, why I feel that Rey is held to a different standard than Luke or Anakin. It was never an attempt to "misdirect" from anything, it was not my only or even the bulk of my argument. You have misrepresented it as such, because it is you, not I, who is trying to derail this thread into a debate on "identity politics".What, you think someone's going to report you for your transparent mysogony misdirect, and that pathetic alt-right smoke screen in the last one? You are trying to distract wolves by throwing apples here, nobody gives a fuck about you lame attempts to identity politic your way out of the argument other than to note how pathetically ineffective it is. You think THAT is what you will get reported here? Seriously?
I think that there are two main problems, after one cuts through all the meandering bullshit and personal sniping, which are keeping this from being a productive debate.
The first is that you and I are using different definitions of what constitutes a Mary Sue. You are arguing, more or less, that Rey is a Mary Sue because her abilities are not set-up in-depth throughout the film (using a ridiculous double-standard of what constitutes reasonable set-up, but that's another matter). I am arguing that regardless of the thinly-developed script and plot holes, her abilities are generally consistent with what has been previously established in the Star Wars franchise, rather than her being an overpowered outlier, and that therefore she is not a Mary Sue.
You even basically acknowledged this distinction, when you posted "The problem isn't that Rey performed something amazing, its that it was not set up correctly in a dramatic enterprise."
I think the other problem, frankly, is that you came here primed to fight me personally, with a personal hostility toward me, and seeing this as a political values debate against "TRR the nasty SJW". That has colored your approach to this entire debate.