Star Wars vs. Homeworld

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Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Theotherguy »

I stumbled across this site while looking for Star Trek trivia. I have always been a fan of the series, but I just recently started re-watching a lot of the season, and I was surprised at all of the nonsensical techno-babble I encountered along the way, and wanted to look at some of the writer's interpretations of their own nonsense. Here, I found something quite peculiar. This site seems to be dedicated to announcing the supremacy of one imaginary science fiction race's imaginary ships and culture over another imaginary science fiction race's imaginary ships and culture. All of this, of course, is taken in full seriousness -- knowing full well that both Star Trek, and Star Wars (and indeed all science fiction) employs fantasy and handwaving, and that none, (with the exception of perhaps early Hard Science Fiction), even attempt to depict realistic space battles or technologies. I'm not entirely opposed to this idea. Indeed, I find it amusing, if not intellectually stimulating, in the same way that arguments of "who would win, a lion or a tiger?" or "who would win, the Nazis, or a horde of zombies?" are entertaining and stimulating.

With that in mind, I understand that the races of Star Wars, as they are depicted, far exceed in power the races of many other sci-fi races -- including all of those depicted in Star Trek.

I was thinking about science fiction races that might stand a chance against the Galactic Empire of Star Wars, and what sort of versus scenarios would make for interesting discussion and battles. I feel that Star Wars is fairly evenly matched with the video game Homeworld, though the Galactic Empire may have a few significant advantages... not the least of which is shielding.

First, some backstory. If you want to delve more specifically into the stats of the Homeworld races, I would suggest the Encyclopedia Hiigara (http://homeworld.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page) an excellent resource on ship sizes and capabilites. For now, I will give a quick overview.

Homeworld is a Real-Time-Strategy game that was released by Relic in 1998. It was revolutionary in its day, in that it was one of the first games to depict strategy in 3D space. Unlike most other space-based strategy games, Homeworld allowed the player to manuver fleets on multiple planes, and in 3D volumes, with 3D formations and tactics. This made it a bit daunting for the average player, but it provided an incredible depth of strategy not seen in many games that came before or after. Homeworld focused on intense ship-to-ship combat in space involving various weapons platforms and sizes of ships, each of which had their own purposes and advantages. Homeworld also forced the player to rely on supply lines to gain resources, and he had to protect these supply lines or face running out of raw materials and even fuel. Homeworld had two sequels: Cataclysm, which added the ability to upgrade ships, set waypoints and attack strategies, and the concept of superweapons -- and Homeworld 2, which simplified the interface, increased the depth of ship upgrades and technologies, and added new classes of ships and weapons.

The universe of Homeworld takes place on a grand and galactic scale. The story focuses upon the struggles of galactic and regional powers in a single galaxy which is not assumed to be our own. The races of Homeworld, like the races of Star Wars, have been developing for thousands of years, and have the capability of raising massive fleets. I will not get much further into the backstory -- so please check out Ecyclopedia Hiigara for further details.


Here is a video (albeit of a mod,) which I think gives a pretty good depiction of the kinds of ships and technologies in the homeworld universe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFVUoxPchgw

***TECHNOLOGY*
First, to compare the races of Homeworld to the races of Star Wars, we must compare their technology.

*STARSHIPS*
Homeworld starships are divided into several size classes: Strike Craft, Corvettes, Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers, Carriers, Shipyards and Mother-Ships.

Strike craft are small, manuverable fighters and bombers capable of taking out smaller capital-class ships and providing a significant advantage to those who employ them. Corvettes are anti-strikecraft starships with turrets or missiles, which are heavily armored, but are incapable of taking out larger capital ships. Frigates trump corvettes, but are vulnerable to strike-craft. Frigates usually come in anti-corvette (multiple gun turrets or missiles), or anti-frigate varieties (with huge ion cannons.) Destroyers are the backbone of the fleet, and can easily take care of large collections of frigates and strike-craft. Cruisers are giant, slow, heavy-hitters of the fleet capable of destroying enemy assets, but are vulnerable to strike-craft. Carriers, Shipyards and motherships are heavily armored, giant factories, whose primary purpose is to resupply the fleet and provide a base of operations. Carriers, Shipyards and Motherships have very little weaponry, and must be defended by combat class ships. Carriers' primary purpose is to bring strike-craft into hyperspace to get them in range of the enemy.

*PROPULSION*
Homeworld ships rely on approximatley three types of propulsion. Small ships, such as fighter craft, rely on ejecting either a chemical or ion rocket trail. It is not entirely clear what sort of engines these are, but in Homeworld 1, they appeared to use fuel, which was propelled out of the back of the fighter, leaving a long trail of what appears to be smoke or ionized plasma. When the fighter craft was out of fuel, it would drift in space without any control. In Homeworld 2, fighters did not run out of fuel, and their engine trails appeared more clearly to be ionized plasma.

The second type of engine, used on ships all the way up from small corvettes to the massive "mother-ships" appears to be some kind of fusion-based plasma engine, and does not emit an ion trail.These engines provided enough thrust to move huge ships -- albeit with low acceleration, over large distances. Fighter craft are clearly more manuverable than capital ships, but they are greatly outranged by the bigger vessels. All of these propulsion methods seem quite inferior to Star Wars propulsion technologies.

The third type of engine is called a "hyperspace drive." The hyperspace drive appears to operate much in the same way as the hyperspace engines of Star Wars. Namely, the ship appears to enter another sort of space parallel to real space, called "hyper space", and then emerge back in real space a significant distance away. Also, similarly to Star Wars, ships can be "pulled out" of hyperspace by significantly large gravitational fields. Unlike Star Wars' depiction of hyperspace engines, Homeworld engines are huge and cumbersome, so only the largest capital ships have them. There are also various kinds of hyperspace engines. Some can only maintain a ship in hyperspace for a short amount of time before pulling the ship out of hyperspace, after which they must "recharge." These are really only good for interplanetary flight -- as it can take several hours in hyperspace to go thousands of light years. Therefore, hyperspace travel is done in "jumps," where ships will jump, emerge from hyperspace, recharge, and jump again. The largest hyperspace engines can manage travel accross the entire galaxy in perhaps a dozen such "jumps."

In addition, Homeworld hyperspace engines create a "wake" around the ship in which other objects can be caught and brought into hyperspace. In this manner, entire fleets can be transported acrross the entire galaxy if they remain in tight formation with a large "mother-ship" that carries a galactic hyperspace core.

Some of the races of the homeworld universe have significantly more advanced hyperspace technology. The "progenitors" (an ancient race which dissapeared from the homeworld universe 10,000 years earlier) were said to have had a hyperspace engine capable of jumping across the galaxy in less than a second, on a single jump. This same engine was said to have allowed the progenitors to perform inter-galactic travel.

*WEAPONRY*
The weaponry of homeworld is divided into a few main types.

---Mass Drivers---
Mass Drivers, such as railguns and cannons, are still in heavy use in the Homeworld universe. They come in various size classes. Strikecraft use what are essentially machine-guns or perhaps railguns to fire a continuous stream of high-velocity bullets at their targets. It is unclear exactly what these bullets are made of, but they are apparently able to pierce armor in even some of the larger capital ships. The second class of kinetic energy weapons -- the autocannons -- is made up of rapid-fire railguns capable of taking out strike craft and small ships. Above that, there are heavier railguns on the destroyers and cruisers which are truly heavy hitters. Getting energy data on these guns is very difficult, but the Taiidan in Homeworld 1 were seen to use them to great effect as orbital bombardment weapons, and in the game they are routinely used to destroy asteroids of considerable size.

>> A mass driver weapon: Image

---Missiles---
In addition, missiles are in wide use in the Homeworld universe. The missiles depicted use the same drive technology as the strike craft, leaving a long ion trail. There are many kinds of missiles. Some are in the kiloton range, and are used against strike craft. Some are in the megaton range and are routinely used by frigates and cruisers. Larger, slower missiles are used by the biggest ships of the game, and appear to be in the hundreds of megaton to gigaton range, and are used against motherships and for orbital bombardment. Also, Homeworld fleets can employ intelligent mines, which sit inactively until a ship comes near, and then turn on their main engines to strike.

>>A "fusion missile" (apparently it employs thermonuclear fusion in its detonation)
Image

>>Anti strike craft missiles, from a multiple-vehicle launch platform.
Image

---Plasma Weapons---
Plasma weapons, such as the "plasma bomb",the "plasma autocannon" and some of the smaller plasma beam and "plasma lance" weapons are in limited use in the homeworld environment. Plasma weapons are depicted to be considerably more powerful than the mass drivers, but use similar delivery mechanisms.They are, however, less powerful than the missiles. Some plasma weapons are designed principally to disable ships' systems with EM radiation.

>>Strike craft launching plasma bombs
Image

---Directed Energy Weapons---
The principal directed energy weapon of the homeworld universe is called the "Ion Cannon," this weapon appears to emit a beam of contained plasma or highly charged ions at its target at very near the speed of light. These weapons are difficult to aim, and use up huge amounts of energy and space, but their effect is nothing short of devestating on armor and asteroids. The "Planet Killers" of Homeworld 2 were essentially enormous ion cannons which were used, presumably, to destroy planets. (Although this is never actually depicted in the game.) Ion cannons are emplyed from the frigate up to the cruiser range, and are a significant threat to capital ships -- though not to strike craft. The second kind of directed energy weapon is called a "pulsar beam." Some of the pulsar beams depicted appear to infact be powerful lasers, while others are described as being "short pulse ion cannons," that is, they principally operate by storing up a large amount of energy in a capacitor, and then releasing it in a very short pulse in the form of an ion beam. These weapons are significantly smaller and more efficient than ion cannons, but they do considerably less damage. Pulsar beams are a significant threat to corvettes and slower bombers, as they have more power and accuracy than small mass drivers.

>>A Hiigaran Battlecruiser, firing its main Ion Cannon
Image

---Super Weapons---
There are a few "super weapons" in the homeworld universe. Some are depicted as being "planet killers" (with various interpretations. Its not clear if these weapons can actually vapourize planets, or merely make it unlivable for the planet on the surface.) One particular weapon, the "seige cannon" is depicted to be able to destroy entire fleets of Homeworld ships in an intense blast of radiation, although it is not entirely clear how powerful this weapon is. Other superweapons, such as "Sajuuk," rely on scaled-up versions of the ion cannon, and are similar in operation to the Death Star's main beam.

>>Concept for a "planet killer"
Image

>>A "Phased Cannon Array"
Image


*SHIELDING AND ARMOR*
Here is where I believe that Homeworld is most at a disadvantage to Star Wars. Most of the ships depicted have very thick, apparently metallic armor, and if they have shielding at all, it is not readily visible. However, energy shields are certainly present in the universe. There are two types of energy shields depicted. One of them apparently uses the force of gravity or some other force to physically repel projectiles, missiles, and asteroids. It exerts its force over a wide area, and requires absurd amounts of power to run. It is therefore deployed only on a few "experimental" ships which essentially have their entire architechture devoted to the shield technology. These ships are not very useful, except for deflecting incoming fire from capital ships. They are ineffective at stopping ion beams. The second kind of shield is actually a kind of point defense system that detects incoming missiles, bullets, and ion cannons, and vaporizes them with a high intensity laser.

I do not think either of these would be very effective against Star Wars weapons.

*SENSORS*
Homeworld ships have a few main sensors, but unfortunately all of them appear to be slower-than-light in operation. They can detect things optically, using cloaked probes, they have some kind of EM detection scheme which can determine the positions and hull designs of ships at hundreds of thousands of kilometers, and they have gravitational sensors (named "proximity sensors") which are primarily used for detecting cloaked ships. All ships typically have quite a small bubble in which they can accuratley see and target enemy vessels.

*GROUND FORCES / ONSHIP COMBAT*
Homeworld fleets are typically equipped with "marine ships," and "infiltrators," whose role is apparently to board ships and take them by combat using infantry. This combat is not depicted in the game, so it is difficult to assess. In some of the cut-scenes, ground forces, tanks, and planetary weapons systems are visible.


>>A Vaygr Infiltrator frigate, with boarding shuttles visible
Image

>>concept for ground vehicles
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/homew ... hicles.jpg

*STAR BASES*
In Homeworld, key locations are often guarded by enourmous space stations -- some the size of cities or small asteroids. Often, star bases are built into asteroids to reduce their cost and provide building material. Star bases rarely have much firepower. The "Progenitors" are said to have built "megaliths," which were huge star bases of incredible power, some the size of moons. These megaliths are visible in the background during some of the game, but they are never depicted as being in operation.

>>concept for a starbase in an asteroid:
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/homew ... 0403-j.jpg

>>concept for a megalith
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/homew ... -Karos.jpg

*SPECIAL TECHNOLOGIES*
Homeworld fleets also have a range of special technologies which might give them an advantage. One of these is the "Gravity Well Generator," which is capable of pulling ships out of hyperspace with a huge artificial gravity field that extends primarily into hyperspace. In addition, gravity well generators can be used to immobilize specific ships. Homeworld fleets also have access to tractor beams, but they are depicted to be of much shorter range than the tractor beams of Star Wars. Homeworld fleets also have a technology called a "phased dissasembler array," which allows them to strip atoms into their constituent parts (at close range, and with significant use of energy) and re-assemble them into other sorts of materials. This allows them to repair damage to their ships from a remote distance, and build ships out of any given material. This suggests very advanced forms of power generation. In addition, some homeworld ships have the ability to cloak themselves, becoming invisible to sensors and visible light. Also, large homeworld ships seem to be controlled by brain-to-computer interfaces, giving commanders unprecedented control over the sub-systems of their ships.


***MOBILIZATION CAPABILITY***
The races of Homeworld are depicted as being semi-galactic powers. The Hiigarans, at the end of Homeworld II, appear to control about half the galaxy, though it is unclear what their population is. Taiidan, for instance, is depicted as a city planet with a population in the hundreds of billions, while Hiigara is depicted as a paradise, with a population of 160 million. However, the major powers of the galaxy clearly have the capability to amass huge fleets. In cutscenes, individual fleets are depicted as having thousands of ships, although in-game (for technical reasons) ship numbers are limited to at most a couple of hundred.

****
So what do you think? Would it be at all a fair fight if say, the Galatic Empire stumbled upon the Homeworld universe, or if the Hiigaran Fleet found its way into that Galaxy far, far away?
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by tim31 »

Oh boy. Welcome to SDN, the committee will be with you shortly...
lol, opsec doesn't apply to fanfiction. -Aaron

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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Aaron »

tim31 wrote:Oh boy. Welcome to SDN, the committee will be with you shortly...
Nice ad for Homeworld though, I'm going to go search for my disks.

This will probably be locked Theotherguy, it's preferred around here if you provide something other then an ad for the game to back your points up. Sorry dude, enjoy the board.
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Hawkwings »

While Homeworld does not have Core Commander-scale production rates, it is still staggering. If they get some uninterrupted time in the SW verse, they should be able to give some local powers a run for their money. The Galactic Empire still comes down on them hard though.

Unless...

"The enemy is using turbolaser technology. Start research on turbolasers immediately."

"Our weapons fire seems to be stopped by some sort of shield. Research shields immediately."

"From analysis of the wreckage, we have determined that the enemy uses a power generation system involving hypermatter. Research hypermatter reactors immediately."
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by JointStrikeFighter »

And we've already had this discussion dozens of times.
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Theotherguy »

Cpl Kendall wrote:
This will probably be locked Theotherguy, it's preferred around here if you provide something other then an ad for the game to back your points up. Sorry dude, enjoy the board.
I'm sorry if it appears to be an advertisement. What do you suggest I do instead?
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Aaron »

Debating VS anything on SDN always boils down to providing firepower calcs, industrial figures and such. I'd suggest you go and find some or do your own on Homeworld before Ghostrider comes in here and locks the thread. Whether these numbers can be found or can be done for the game, I have no idea.
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Theotherguy »

Cpl Kendall wrote:Debating VS anything on SDN always boils down to providing firepower calcs, industrial figures and such. I'd suggest you go and find some or do your own on Homeworld before Ghostrider comes in here and locks the thread. Whether these numbers can be found or can be done for the game, I have no idea.
I suppose I could calculate approximate firepower based on the stats given in the game.

The stats given are, unfortunately, unit-less -- so we'd have to compare them relative to one another, and some standard, such as the destruction of asteroids.

The stats regularly touted on this site about star destroyers appear to be found in a similar manner -- aka "In such and such scene we see a star destroyer blasting an asteroid to vapor, this requires X amount of energy, and thus we can scale such and such weapons based on their relative strength to X."

Give me a moment to do calculations, and I'll give you what I can to the best of my ability.
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Agent Sorchus »

Best advise is to bring either numeric calculations or events that can be calculated. If there are few events that would qualify than you try and analyze the scope and breadth of the universes to give you an idea of capacity.

You have a lot of the wordy descriptions of the armament that the Homeworld universe has, there are no numbers (form any source) and their are no events described that would lead to good order of Magnitude estimates of the actual powre of the weapons. One of the best events to bring forth for debate vs SW is planetary destruction similar in scale to what an ISD can preform. That can at least give us a base line to discuss actual chances that any side would have.
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Theotherguy »

In this video, you can see ten ion cannon frigates blasting apart asteroids. Keep in mind that this was in 1998, and that special effects weren't so good as to depict vaporization or melting, so as a rule, we see the surface of the asteroids ablating, and then the asteroids break apart into smaller asteroids, which do not quite add up to the volume of the original. It follows that the remainder must have been vaporized or turned into dust:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOLJWeYG ... re=related

Each of these asteroids looks to be approximately the size of a single ion cannon frigate. Its length, according to the manual, is approximately 50 meters. If we consider the asteroids to be roughly spherical, then we have asteroids of a volume of approximately 65,450 meters cubed. If we consider the asteroid to be of 100% iron (as was done in the calculation of turbolaser firepower), then its mass is 5.15 x 10^8 kg

According to wolfram alpha, it would take approximately 1.27 x 10^11 kilojoules of energy to melt the asteroid.

Now, from the video it appears that it takes about six seconds to do this, so as a lower limit, we can say that the ten ion cannon frigates together deliver an average of 0.21 x 10^11 KJ per second of power, yielding approximately 0.02 x 10^11 KJ per second of energy per second. This is about two terawatts of power. According to the manual this is equivalent to "4,000" units of firepower (which I will now call HWFP).

It follows that 1 HWFP is equivalent to 0.0005 TW.

From this we can calculate equivalent firepower for other homeworld ships:
Interceptor: 18 HWFP = .009 TW
Bomber: 45 HWFP = .0225 TW
Heavy Corvette: 200 HWFP = 0.1 TW
Destroyer: 10,500 HWFP = 5.25 TW
Heavy Cruiser: 20,000 HWFP = 10 TW
Sajuuk (planet killer): 75000 HWFP = 37.5 TW

...and these are ridiculously small in comparison to an ISD :(

EDIT: Oops, I wasn't using the "damage per second" stat, just the "total approximate damage" stat. Using the "damage per second" stat for the ion cannon frigate reveals that it causes 305 HWFP per second, meaning that 1 HWFP is actually equivalent to .006 TW.

So the new stats are:
Interceptor: .108 TW
Bomber: .27 TW
Heavy Corvette: 1.2 TW
Destroyer: 63 TW
Heavy Cruiser: 120 TW
Sajuuk: 450 TW
Last edited by Theotherguy on 2009-08-31 08:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Batman »

Theotherguy wrote:I stumbled across this site while looking for Star Trek trivia. I have always been a fan of the series, but I just recently started re-watching a lot of the season, and I was surprised at all of the nonsensical techno-babble I encountered along the way, and wanted to look at some of the writer's interpretations of their own nonsense. Here, I found something quite peculiar. This site seems to be dedicated to announcing the supremacy of one imaginary science fiction race's imaginary ships and culture over another imaginary science fiction race's imaginary ships and culture.
You would be mistaken. This site is dedicated to debating IF and HOW one franchise's technology would be superior to another's (actually this site is dedicated to debating period but I presume you're referring to the vs debates and the main site.) There's a lot of Trek vs Wars because they're SciFi's most popular franchises.
All of this, of course, is taken in full seriousness -- knowing full well that both Star Trek, and Star Wars (and indeed all science fiction) employs fantasy and handwaving, and that none, (with the exception of perhaps early Hard Science Fiction), even attempt to depict realistic space battles or technologies.
Define 'realistic', please.If you mean 'achievable with modern/near future technology' you're probably correct.
With that in mind, I understand that the races of Star Wars, as they are depicted, far exceed in power the races of many other sci-fi races -- including all of those depicted in Star Trek.
Which is not necessarily true. The power of the Dowd, Organians and the Q (or whoever built the Whale probe) is moderately undeterminable other than 'far beyond anything the AQ powers can do' but it may (or indeed may not) be greater than that of the Wars powers.
I was thinking about science fiction races that might stand a chance against the Galactic Empire of Star Wars, and what sort of versus scenarios would make for interesting discussion and battles. I feel that Star Wars is fairly evenly matched with the video game Homeworld, though the Galactic Empire may have a few significant advantages... not the least of which is shielding.

***TECHNOLOGY*
*PROPULSION*
Homeworld ships rely on approximatley three types of propulsion. Small ships, such as fighter craft, rely on ejecting either a chemical or ion rocket trail. It is not entirely clear what sort of engines these are, but in Homeworld 1, they appeared to use fuel, which was propelled out of the back of the fighter, leaving a long trail of what appears to be smoke or ionized plasma. When the fighter craft was out of fuel, it would drift in space without any control. In Homeworld 2, fighters did not run out of fuel, and their engine trails appeared more clearly to be ionized plasma.
Acceleration? Powered endurance?
The second type of engine, used on ships all the way up from small corvettes to the massive "mother-ships" appears to be some kind of fusion-based plasma engine, and does not emit an ion trail.These engines provided enough thrust to move huge ships -- albeit with low acceleration, over large distances. Fighter craft are clearly more manuverable than capital ships, but they are greatly outranged by the bigger vessels. All of these propulsion methods seem quite inferior to Star Wars propulsion technologies.
Acceleration? Pwered endurance?
The third type of engine is called a "hyperspace drive." The hyperspace drive appears to operate much in the same way as the hyperspace engines of Star Wars. Namely, the ship appears to enter another sort of space parallel to real space,
which Star Wars vessels no longer do though I doubt it's particularly relevant,
called "hyper space", and then emerge back in real space a significant distance away.
At which speeds, with which limitations?
Also, similarly to Star Wars, ships can be "pulled out" of hyperspace by significantly large gravitational fields. Unlike Star Wars' depiction of hyperspace engines, Homeworld engines are huge and cumbersome, so only the largest capital ships have them. There are also various kinds of hyperspace engines. Some can only maintain a ship in hyperspace for a short amount of time before pulling the ship out of hyperspace, after which they must "recharge." These are really only good for interplanetary flight -- as it can take several hours in hyperspace to go thousands of light years. Therefore, hyperspace travel is done in "jumps," where ships will jump, emerge from hyperspace, recharge, and jump again. The largest hyperspace engines can manage travel accross the entire galaxy in perhaps a dozen such "jumps."
Um-8 hours to go 2/3rds across the galaxy for a civilian (prone to malfunction at that) freighter in ANH. And thousands of lightyears inside of hours seems pretty tolerable for interstellar flight. It's considerably faster than Trek Warp drive for starters. InterPLANETARY means insystem.
*WEAPONRY*
Numbers.
---Missiles---
In addition, missiles are in wide use in the Homeworld universe. The missiles depicted use the same drive technology as the strike craft, leaving a long ion trail. There are many kinds of missiles. Some are in the kiloton range, and are used against strike craft. Some are in the megaton range and are routinely used by frigates and cruisers. Larger, slower missiles are used by the biggest ships of the game, and appear to be in the hundreds of megaton to gigaton range, and are used against motherships and for orbital bombardment. Also, Homeworld fleets can employ intelligent mines, which sit inactively until a ship comes near, and then turn on their main engines to strike.
200GT MTL on a Clone Wars troop transport.
---Plasma Weapons---
Plasma weapons, such as the "plasma bomb",the "plasma autocannon" and some of the smaller plasma beam and "plasma lance" weapons are in limited use in the homeworld environment. Plasma weapons are depicted to be considerably more powerful than the mass drivers, but use similar delivery mechanisms.They are, however, less powerful than the missiles. Some plasma weapons are designed principally to disable ships' systems with EM radiation.
Numbers.
---Directed Energy Weapons---
The principal directed energy weapon of the homeworld universe is called the "Ion Cannon,"
Which would be a particle weapon, not a DEW,
this weapon appears to emit a beam of contained plasma or highly charged ions at its target at very near the speed of light. These weapons are difficult to aim, and use up huge amounts of energy and space, but their effect is nothing short of devestating on armor and asteroids.
Numbers.
The "Planet Killers" of Homeworld 2 were essentially enormous ion cannons which were used, presumably, to destroy planets. (Although this is never actually depicted in the game.)
IOW you not only know how they did it you don't know they ever did it to begin with.
Ion cannons are emplyed from the frigate up to the cruiser range, and are a significant threat to capital ships -- though not to strike craft.
Which unsurprisingly tells us beans about their firepower.
The second kind of directed energy weapon is called a "pulsar beam." Some of the pulsar beams depicted appear to infact be powerful lasers,
Mutually exclusive. If they're depicted (as in there's pictures where you can see them) they can't be lasers. Lasers are invisible in a vacuum.
while others are described as being "short pulse ion cannons," that is, they principally operate by storing up a large amount of energy in a capacitor, and then releasing it in a very short pulse in the form of an ion beam. These weapons are significantly smaller and more efficient than ion cannons, but they do considerably less damage.
Which doesn't tell us beans about how MUCH damage they do I'm afraid.
Pulsar beams are a significant threat to corvettes and slower bombers, as they have more power and accuracy than small mass drivers.
Which again doesn't tell us beans without knowing the firepower of those weapons or the resilience of those targets.
---Super Weapons---
There are a few "super weapons" in the homeworld universe. Some are depicted as being "planet killers" (with various interpretations. Its not clear if these weapons can actually vapourize planets, or merely make it unlivable for the planet on the surface.) One particular weapon, the "seige cannon" is depicted to be able to destroy entire fleets of Homeworld ships in an intense blast of radiation, although it is not entirely clear how powerful this weapon is. Other superweapons, such as "Sajuuk," rely on scaled-up versions of the ion cannon, and are similar in operation to the Death Star's main beam.
Are they similar in power? Because so far the answer is likely to be 'not bloody likely' and we've seen infantry support weapons 'similar in operation to the Death Star's main beam' in AoTC.
*SHIELDING AND ARMOR*
Numbers.
*SENSORS*
Homeworld ships have a few main sensors, but unfortunately all of them appear to be slower-than-light in operation. They can detect things optically,
Um-that's lightspeed sensors right there. In fact I can't think of ANY STL sensor that would work in space.
using cloaked probes, they have some kind of EM detection scheme which can determine the positions and hull designs of ships at hundreds of thousands of kilometers,
that's lightspeed sensors again,
and they have gravitational sensors (named "proximity sensors") which are primarily used for detecting cloaked ships.
Aand once more, lightspeed sensors. So much for STL sensors
*GROUND FORCES / ONSHIP COMBAT*
Homeworld fleets are typically equipped with "marine ships," and "infiltrators," whose role is apparently to board ships and take them by combat using infantry. This combat is not depicted in the game, so it is difficult to assess. In some of the cut-scenes, ground forces, tanks, and planetary weapons systems are visible.
Numbers.
*SPECIAL TECHNOLOGIES*
Homeworld fleets also have a range of special technologies which might give them an advantage. One of these is the "Gravity Well Generator," which is capable of pulling ships out of hyperspace with a huge artificial gravity field that extends primarily into hyperspace.
Interdictors. You were saying?
In addition, gravity well generators can be used to immobilize specific ships.
Tractor beams. You were saying?
Homeworld fleets also have access to tractor beams, but they are depicted to be of much shorter range than the tractor beams of Star Wars. Homeworld fleets also have a technology called a "phased dissasembler array," which allows them to strip atoms into their constituent parts (at close range, and with significant use of energy) and re-assemble them into other sorts of materials. This allows them to repair damage to their ships from a remote distance, and build ships out of any given material. This suggests very advanced forms of power generation.
Um no it doesn't?
In addition, some homeworld ships have the ability to cloak themselves, becoming invisible to sensors and visible light.
'No ship this small has a cloaking device' nevermind the EU.
Also, large homeworld ships seem to be controlled by brain-to-computer interfaces, giving commanders unprecedented control over the sub-systems of their ships.
That might or might not give them an advantage if they had the fire/staying power to stand up to Wars forces which you so far have given no numbers on but I very much suspect they have not by a VERY very long shot.
***MOBILIZATION CAPABILITY***
The races of Homeworld are depicted as being semi-galactic powers. The Hiigarans, at the end of Homeworld II, appear to control about half the galaxy, though it is unclear what their population is. Taiidan, for instance, is depicted as a city planet with a population in the hundreds of billions, while Hiigara is depicted as a paradise, with a population of 160 million. However, the major powers of the galaxy clearly have the capability to amass huge fleets. In cutscenes, individual fleets are depicted as having thousands of ships, although in-game (for technical reasons) ship numbers are limited to at most a couple of hundred.
Coruscant alone has a population far outstripping that. The OR and the Empire controlled the ENTIRE galaxy.
So what do you think? Would it be at all a fair fight if say, the Galatic Empire stumbled upon the Homeworld universe, or if the Hiigaran Fleet found its way into that Galaxy far, far away?
Impossible to say thanks to you not giving us any worthwhile numbers, but I very much suspect a sector fleet could deal with them quite handily. Might require more if we're actually talking occupation.

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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Theotherguy »

Batman wrote:
Um-that's lightspeed sensors right there. In fact I can't think of ANY STL sensor that would work in space.

that's lightspeed sensors again,

Aand once more, lightspeed sensors. So much for STL sensors
Sorry, when I say STL I mean <= c, where FTL means strictly greater. I understand that they are all light speed sensors.

Will try to come up with numbers soon!

** as for the several hours for several thousand lightyears, I meant to say that this is the approximate speed of a jump in hyperspace. That, coupled with the fact that most ships can only stay in hyperspace for a few SECONDS means that the smaller drives are only good for interplanetary flight, while the bigger ones, which can maintain jumps for HOURS are fairly good for interstellar flight.
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Batman »

If it's any consolation, the WC3 manual gave firepower numbers in nanojoules :D
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Batman »

Theotherguy wrote: Will try to come up with numbers soon!
You already did, hence my comment at the end of the post (so I'm a slow poster). As you seem to understand that so far the numbers pale compared to Wars I'm satisfied you understand the disparity.
Oh, and thanks for the hyperdive clear-up. Yes, mere seconds DOES mostly make them interplanetary.
Last edited by Batman on 2009-08-31 08:24pm, edited 1 time in total.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Stark »

Hawkwings wrote:While Homeworld does not have Core Commander-scale production rates, it is still staggering. If they get some uninterrupted time in the SW verse, they should be able to give some local powers a run for their money. The Galactic Empire still comes down on them hard though.
Game mechanics. there are all kinds of rocks that magically aren't money, ergo the resourcing is massively simplified for the game.

Hawkwings wrote:"The enemy is using turbolaser technology. Start research on turbolasers immediately."

"Our weapons fire seems to be stopped by some sort of shield. Research shields immediately."

"From analysis of the wreckage, we have determined that the enemy uses a power generation system involving hypermatter. Research hypermatter reactors immediately."
You're an idiot. Not only is this even more hilarious game mechanics (and the incredible lameness of the Homeworld writing) but the entire techbase of the whole galaxy is basically common. It's a bit different for them to reverse engineer turbolasers in 90s with a single asteroid.

This sort of thing is really quite tiresome. Even if we accept the laughable statements ingame (go on, read the lore, laugh your ass off) they still lose horribly.
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Theotherguy »

Here are some of the numbers for ship acceleration in homeworld:
Homeworld 2 Hiigaran Interceptor : 162.5 m/s^2 (example of engine type 1 on a very small ship weighing ~40 tons)
Homeworld 1 Assault Frigate : 75 m/s^2 (example of engine type 2, on a smaller ship,weighing ~15K tons )
Homeworld 2 Hiigaran Battlecruiser: 11.6 m/s^2 (example of engine type 2, on a very large ship weighing ~130K tons)

EDIT: And yes, I think we can assume that we aren't taking game mechanics like "Enourmous Ships can be built in seconds or minutes" and "Research teams can reverse engineer advanced technologies they've never seen before and design new ships out of nothing in under an hour" seriously.
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Stark »

Based on what? Ingame measurements? The ingame range indicator? Manual mesaurements compared ingame?
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Theotherguy »

Stark wrote:Based on what? Ingame measurements? The ingame range indicator? Manual mesaurements compared ingame?
Stats from Relic and Homeworld Shipyards. For some of them, I divided "max velocity" by "accel time." (Yes I know its ridiculous for ships to have a maximum velocity in space other than C)
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Theotherguy »

Stark wrote:So you're using made-up stats and ingame measurements you've distorted. How is this valid?
The stats from Relic come directly from the programming of the game. You don't "make up" stats in video games. After all, a video game is essentially a simulation of the ships in combat, and the arbitrary values that a programmer gives to the ship is obeyed in the simulation. If that's "made up" I'm not sure what more you would want.

EDIT:
What I mean to say, is that since we're dealing with a video game, (and the video game is the only available source on the matter,)then the game, and its programming ARE the canon. If you feel this invalidates the whole purpose of this "fiction A trumps fiction B in a fight" argument, then we might as well leave video games out of the picture entirely.
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Batman »

You have GOT to be kidding me.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Stark »

Cut him some slack. He just worked out why Homeworld quantification is impossible/stupid.

For example, how high is the Mothership? Explain your sources and reasoning.
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by fgalkin »

Theotherguy wrote:
Stark wrote:So you're using made-up stats and ingame measurements you've distorted. How is this valid?
The stats from Relic come directly from the programming of the game. You don't "make up" stats in video games. After all, a video game is essentially a simulation of the ships in combat, and the arbitrary values that a programmer gives to the ship is obeyed in the simulation. If that's "made up" I'm not sure what more you would want.
Game mechanics cannot be used for vs debating as they are just that, game mechanics. They are not always consistent with reality. An often cited and infamous example are Marines taking down Battlecruisers and Carriers in Starcraft. If we use game mechanics, we must conclude that it's possible to take down a mile-long ship in orbit by taking potshots at it with a rifle that has problems penetrating Zergling carapace in the cutscenes. See what I mean?

Have a very nice day.
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Theotherguy »

Stark wrote:Cut him some slack. He just worked out why Homeworld quantification is impossible/stupid.

For example, how high is the Mothership? Explain your sources and reasoning.
Define "high"
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Re: Star Wars vs. Homeworld

Post by Stark »

Don't get smart. My point is that there are many ways to determine the length of the major axis on the mothership (manual, database, ingame, etc) and they're not the same. So how can you combine these sources?
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