The origin of stagnation in the 40K universe

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Gullible Jones
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The origin of stagnation in the 40K universe

Post by Gullible Jones » 2008-03-10 09:33pm

I've seen a few threads where people say that the scientific method is considered heretical in 40K. If that's the case, during what time period was it first considered heresy? Was this the work of the people who were left in charge after the Emperor "died", or is the openmindedness required for scientific investigation sufficiently conducive to corruption by Chaos that the Emperor saw fit to ban it early on?

(Making the scientific method heretical just seems like a bizarre move in such a setting, seeing how advantageous it would be to have a technological edge on the Imperium's enemies.)

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Post by Darth Raptor » 2008-03-10 10:13pm

Blame Tzeentch. Science is heretical because it's so readily corruptible.

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Post by Peptuck » 2008-03-10 10:22pm

Pretty much the point where the Adeptus Mechanicus took over.

Keep in mind, the scientific method isn't considered heresy, its just the AdMech applies a lot of unnecessary religious ritual and scripture to every single aspect of maintaining and researching technology.
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Post by Darth Tanner » 2008-03-11 05:19am

its just the AdMech applies a lot of unnecessary religious ritual
Is it really unnecessary? I thought that failure to comply with it resulted in your tank being possessed by demons and eating you.
Pretty much the point where the Adeptus Mechanicus took over
Which would be the founding of the Imperium right? Wasn't the Emperor, while free, a strong advocate of science, his own webway experiments for example. I thought the religious lunacy only set in with the aftermath of the Horus Heresy when the demonic threat revealed itself, not to mention half the mechanicus turning traitor.
seeing how advantageous it would be to have a technological edge on the Imperium's enemies
Who needs fancy technology when you can drown your foe in the blood of the guard.
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Re: The origin of stagnation in the 40K universe

Post by Ford Prefect » 2008-03-11 05:34am

Gullible Jones wrote:I've seen a few threads where people say that the scientific method is considered heretical in 40K.
They're full of shit. It's really weird in 40K, but it is there. There is more than one example of Tech-Priests going through logical experimentation (most of these examples are in relation to the Necrontyr).

Look, you don't build new laser guns and maintain city-sized spaceships without having some kind of understanding. The Adepts of Mars are a body of scientific research, even if it's wrapped up in mysticism and ritual. There is stagnation in the Imperium, but it is not on purpose - the entire fundamental purpose of the Adeptus Mechanicus is to rectify this (the Quest for Knowledge, though admittedly it has elements of Indiana Jones in it).
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2008-03-11 05:35am

Darth Tanner wrote:Is it really unnecessary? I thought that failure to comply with it resulted in your tank being possessed by demons and eating you.
No. One of the most common misunderstandings about 40k is that the ritual and superstition surrounding technology is as arcane and supernatural as it sounds at first glance - that is not the case. True, some rituals really are unnecessary, but for the most part it is more a symptom of learning by rote rather than critically.

For example, a modern day computer science major generally learns that in order to get a program to work, you have to tell the computer to assemble the code into a usable format that the computer understands - i.e., compile it. A WH40K cogitator tech-adept, by comparison, learns that the cogitator's machine-spirit must be appeased via the correct rituals of activation, and the only way to coax the machine-spirit into life is to press the holy button marked 'Compile'.
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-03-11 05:48am

Which would be the founding of the Imperium right? Wasn't the Emperor, while free, a strong advocate of science, his own webway experiments for example. I thought the religious lunacy only set in with the aftermath of the Horus Heresy when the demonic threat revealed itself, not to mention half the mechanicus turning traitor.
AdMech was around prior to the Imperium. The Emperor joined forces with them because they and the many Forge Worlds they'd established would supply the materials he needed for the Great Crusade. Its not a bad idea to join forces with the guys who've already established hundreds of factory planets across the galaxy you plan to reconquer.
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Post by loomer » 2008-03-11 07:50am

Science (Damn, I wish we had SA's :science: emoticon.) isn't strictly speaking heretical in 40k. Puritan inquisitors will burn you, the mainline will keep a very close eye on you incase you get corrupted, and radicals will shove materials at you. Scientists in the Imperium just need to pray they get a Radical protecting them.
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Post by Gullible Jones » 2008-03-11 03:52pm

I thought Radicalism was also a sin? :lol:

(Gaius: thanks for clearing that up. The impression I get is that, however nasty it might be canonically, a lot of fans wank the power of Chaos to utterly ridiculous levels.)

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-03-11 04:22pm

Peptuck wrote:.

AdMech was around prior to the Imperium. The Emperor joined forces with them because they and the many Forge Worlds they'd established would supply the materials he needed for the Great Crusade. Its not a bad idea to join forces with the guys who've already established hundreds of factory planets across the galaxy you plan to reconquer.
No, they only had Mars because the Sol System was cut off from the rest of the galaxy during the Age of Strife. Then Slaanesh is born and the warpstorm is blown away. Earth has fallen into chaos and then been conquered by the Emperor. He joins forces with the Adeptus Mechanicus, who control Mars (incidentally, waging wars in Martian dust storms and vehicle drowning sand plains is where the Adeptus learned to love the Titan) to reconquer the galaxy. Great Crusades, creation of the Primarchs, first Marines, etcetera all come after. So do the forge worlds.
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Post by KlavoHunter » 2008-03-11 06:14pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:No, they only had Mars because the Sol System was cut off from the rest of the galaxy during the Age of Strife. Then Slaanesh is born and the warpstorm is blown away. Earth has fallen into chaos and then been conquered by the Emperor. He joins forces with the Adeptus Mechanicus, who control Mars (incidentally, waging wars in Martian dust storms and vehicle drowning sand plains is where the Adeptus learned to love the Titan) to reconquer the galaxy. Great Crusades, creation of the Primarchs, first Marines, etcetera all come after. So do the forge worlds.
Incorrect - During the warp storms around Sol in the Age of Strife, Mars, once under the control of the Ad Mech, was building ships, stocking them with copies of all Mars' knowledge, and a Titan Legion each, and whenever there was a brief calm or gap in the warp storms, they'd launch the ships out to found new Forge Worlds.

This was a rather bloody process, as the Warp is a capricious thing, but they managed to establish quite a few Forge Worlds separate from Mars that were ready and eager to join with their Ad Mech brothers and the Imperium when the Emperor launched his Crusade.
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-03-11 06:15pm

KlavoHunter wrote: Incorrect - During the warp storms around Sol in the Age of Strife, Mars, once under the control of the Ad Mech, was building ships, stocking them with copies of all Mars' knowledge, and a Titan Legion each, and whenever there was a brief calm or gap in the warp storms, they'd launch the ships out to found new Forge Worlds.

This was a rather bloody process, as the Warp is a capricious thing, but they managed to establish quite a few Forge Worlds separate from Mars that were ready and eager to join with their Ad Mech brothers and the Imperium when the Emperor launched his Crusade.
Where did you get this from?
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-03-11 06:20pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:No, they only had Mars because the Sol System was cut off from the rest of the galaxy during the Age of Strife. Then Slaanesh is born and the warpstorm is blown away. Earth has fallen into chaos and then been conquered by the Emperor. He joins forces with the Adeptus Mechanicus, who control Mars (incidentally, waging wars in Martian dust storms and vehicle drowning sand plains is where the Adeptus learned to love the Titan) to reconquer the galaxy. Great Crusades, creation of the Primarchs, first Marines, etcetera all come after. So do the forge worlds.
There were forge worlds before. The religion of the Omnissiah had spread throughout the galaxy. They were also cut off from Mars, though. Mars and its tech priests had long been the keepers of knowledge, though they were not as outright religious before the Age of the Imperium.
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-03-11 06:24pm

I was of the impression that the Tech Priests spread from Mars into the rest of the galaxy along with the rest of the Imperium, but if I'm wrong I'm wrong. I did pretty much stop paying attention to 40K in the late 90s and I'm better at the oldest and newest fluff. Again, what are the sources that have that information?
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-03-11 06:27pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:Where did you get this from?
The most recent source is from page 41 of the omnibus heresy artbook.
They were also fixated weith understanding what fate had befallen the galaxy. To this end they periodically dispatched great vessels into the warp in hope that some clues would be found. These were the Explorator Fleets of Mars. Over the centuries thousands of such expeditions left Mars, mandy founded new colonies that were to become the Forge Worlds. Others were simply lost for all time.
Incidentally, this one suggests that the Mechanicum only gained dominance of Mars in the 'first centuries of the age of strife' although it had been a world of technology before that, one assumes.
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-03-11 06:35pm

Well, they had a history of fighting campaigns with Titans so that would imply

1) a high tech base to construct Titan Legions

2) a high tech base not to simply roll over and die when confronted by a Titan lead army.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear » 2008-03-11 08:32pm

So what is the Inquistion's view of Occam's Razor?
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Post by Lord Relvenous » 2008-03-11 09:16pm

The same as the early medieval period:

She's a witch! Burn the Witch!
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Post by Darksider » 2008-03-11 09:23pm

Lord Relvenous wrote:The same as the early medieval period:

She's a witch! Burn the Witch!
Isn't that the inquisition's bog-standard answer to just about everything?
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Post by The Yosemite Bear » 2008-03-11 09:53pm

You do realize that the original William of Oakham was a Witchhunter, who got exiled for proving another Witchhunter to be a fraud?
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Post by Gullible Jones » 2008-03-11 10:21pm

Darksider wrote:
Lord Relvenous wrote:The same as the early medieval period:

She's a witch! Burn the Witch!
Isn't that the inquisition's bog-standard answer to just about everything?
Moreover: is this out of necessity (i.e. thinking in an intelligent fashion = guaranteed corruption by Tzeentch), or has the Inquisition just gotten full of nutcases?

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Post by KlavoHunter » 2008-03-11 10:40pm

Gullible Jones wrote:
Darksider wrote:
Lord Relvenous wrote:The same as the early medieval period:

She's a witch! Burn the Witch!
Isn't that the inquisition's bog-standard answer to just about everything?
Moreover: is this out of necessity (i.e. thinking in an intelligent fashion = guaranteed corruption by Tzeentch), or has the Inquisition just gotten full of nutcases?
A little of Column A, a little of Column B, I think. :wink:
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Post by Cykeisme » 2008-03-12 01:14am

How does rational thought invite the corrupting predations of the mighty Architect of Fate?
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Post by Ford Prefect » 2008-03-12 01:30am

The Inquisition is filled with such a variety of different minds that saying 'the Inquisition believes this' is ridiculous. To the unlucky citizen that knows the inquisition even exists, they believe it is a cohesive entity, which is about as accurate as a blind grot. The whole thing is split into different bodies of thought and philosophy, along with the different interpretations and individual Inquisitor brings.

The only 'faction' that can said to be cohesive are the Monodominants, and yes, their automatic answer to everything is 'Burn the witch! Purge the alien! Cleanse the taint!'.
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-03-12 02:23am

Cykeisme wrote:How does rational thought invite the corrupting predations of the mighty Architect of Fate?
It doesn't. At least, not if you're not a psyker. The chaos gods existed - perhaps less powerful - throughout the (comparatively?) rational Golden/Dark Age of Technology, without immediately causing mass corruption.
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