StarDestroyer.Net BBS

It is 1779, and the British thirteen colonies for a myriad of reasons are rebelling. However, to shake things up, Q desides to add a new a new figure to the conflict.

First of all, in Pennsylvania is deposited a town populated with 5,000 Bolsheviks knowlagable in English, complete with the machine tools required to produce WW1 Russian small arms and ammunition led by Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky, who are given a complex set of false memories involving a one way trip time travel artifact and such. They also have 1,000 Mosin-Nagants on them and 50 WW1 russian Maxims. As well, off the coast is parked the Russian cruiser Aurora with a complete supply of coal and ammunition.

What happens?

Zor

As well, off the coast is parked the Russian cruiser Aurora with a complete supply of coal and ammunition.

Oh...

Just imagine - messengers from the future, sent to proclaim the supremacy of progress and a better world for all humans... complete with newer, more powerful arms.

Hell, with people as smart as Lenin and Trots, they would be elevated by the populace very shortly after their deposit. Probably the Bolsheviks would exchange technology for political allegiance. Also, given their views on the British empire and empires in general, I think Lenin and co. would stand side to side in decolonization.

What will they do? Theoretically, the time of capitalism developed has not yet come, according to both Marx and Lenin - capitalism is only developing. On the other side, there would not be another shot for them, since human life is finite. I suggest they try to create a socialist state in the US, first a small one then expand it, relying on their vastly superior XX century technology.

Well, if we assume that the Aurora, at the least, is on the side of the Colonials, we can kiss the Royal Navy goodnight wherever her crew takes her. Hell, they might even try to exhort coal suplies from England by threating to bombard costal citys and destroy merchant shipping, and if that goes well, she could kill ships of the period by ramming them.

There goes New York, the West Indies, the Channel fleet, and the British war effort.

The fact that Aurora's crew would most likley stay loyal to Lenin and co. might just help their political influence in the Colonies. Sorta.

Giving them the Aurora is like saying "Well, you have a star destroyer right there and there are some earthlings beneath". it's not an a-bomb, but given they have the ship initially, and tech to make new ones of it's like, naval supremacy and military supermacy of this one small Soviet State of America is assured.

Though something crossed my mind, how's fuel supply industry doing in Pennsylvania? Can America supply the Aurora with needed fuel for intercontinental voyages?

Stas Bush wrote: Though something crossed my mind, how's fuel supply industry doing in Pennsylvania? Can America supply the Aurora with needed fuel for intercontinental voyages?

Pennsylvania has more coal then God, though they hadn't started digging up quite then, that was some 20-30 years down the road. Witha little work I don't think it would be too much of a stretch though.

Pennsylvania has more coal then God, though they hadn't started digging up quite then, that was some 20-30 years down the road. Witha little work I don't think it would be too much of a stretch though.

In that case Britain is truly fucked... Also, it would be funny for Lenin to witness the birth of Karl Marx I'd suggest this shift would result in Marx becoming a follower of Lenin, not the other way.

Stas Bush wrote:I'd suggest this shift would result in Marx becoming a follower of Lenin, not the other way.

I wonder how much theoretical writing Lenin would have time to do if he's wraped up in Bolshevik America's politics. Still, Marx probably would call himself a Leninist.

I wonder how much theoretical writing Lenin would have time to do if he's wraped up in Bolshevik America's politics.

The same amount as in Russia during the Revolution and Civil War, I suggest. Besides, given that he has a small commune, it's most likely that he will try to organize a smaller Soviet state in America limited to one or two states, and then let everyone else sort it out themselves.

Also, expect a massive intensification of world technological progess.

P.S. Hell, I just realized how awesome this idea is for a novel or even a short story. Might have a shot at it...

Quick Trotsky, to the Chrono Kremlin!

Yeah, I'm taking a shot at that. Definetely.

"Rising Star Times" sounds like a good name.

I haven't been able to find data on the un-refuelled range of the Aurora, but extrapolating from the performance of Russian ships-of-the-line in the Russo-Japanese War, my guess is that the Aurora has a good couple of weeks sinking everything the Royal Navy sends her way, then runs out of fuel and is immobilized, runs out of munitions and is defanged, and the remaining RN ships (of which the Russians only have time to sink a fraction, even if it's a sizeable fraction) pound her to junk with as much 12-pdr and 24-pdr shot as it takes to complete the job.

Then tow the hulk back to Portsmouth, reverse-engineer the design, and the age of the dreadnought starts a hundred years early.

I haven't been able to find data on the un-refuelled range of the Aurora

4000 miles. Or 7200 kms. With a cruise speed of 10 knots and a top speed almost double that (19,2 knots).

my guess is that the Aurora has a good couple of weeks sinking everything the Royal Navy sends her way, then runs out of fuel and is immobilized

Do you think the Aurora crew are that dumb? They are given a comprehension of the situation they are in via the time experiment memories. First of all, the Aurora would be stationary. Second, they have facilities to produce WWI level arms, so I guess finding or making adequate replacement shells for the Aurora to fend off the British for as long as needed to collect enough coal for possible refuelling reserves is viable. Then, proceed to wipe the floor with what remains of the British.

Aurora's shooting range is 12,5 kms. It's armament is 14x152-mm Canet guns with 1414 shots munitions load (probably munitions load was expanded post-re-armament due to installation of additional Canet guns).

Guns of the sailships will utterly fail to penetrate Aurora's armor, whereas, should said ships come anywhere near, Aurora will use with little remorse, the 76,2 Lender flak guns.

The Royal Navy had 100 line ships. That's pathetic. The Aurora can sink them all without itching.

The age of cruisers starts right away, but in the Soviet Republic of Pennsylvania. Britain, on the other hand, is very much fucked.

The colonials probably aren't going to like an ideology opposed to slavery, religion, massive land speculation/wealth concentration and in favour of large scale government control.

So it becomes a question of whether the colonials run out of will before the interlopers run out of men (that is if Lenin attempts to impose a workers paradise).

Would Lenin keep his same ideals in the land of plenty? Somewhere where it actually stays warm and food is in abundance? I thought that was a major factor in Marxism. The overall environment in Russia and it's harshness.

The Aurora could save its ammo for ships in shallow waters and coastal targets by simply ramming Royal Navy ships. I doubt most of them could actually try to outrun the Aurora.

Stas Bush wrote:

I haven't been able to find data on the un-refuelled range of the Aurora

4000 miles. Or 7200 kms. With a cruise speed of 10 knots and a top speed almost double that (19,2 knots).

Really? Damn, that's impressive for the time. Can you post your sources? That's the kind of information I like to have a line on.

Stas Bush wrote: Do you think the Aurora crew are that dumb?

Given the Imperial Russian Navy's performance against the Japanese...let's just say that I'm unimpressed with the quality of their officer corps. The enlisted crew may well have been smarter...

Stas Bush wrote:They are given a comprehension of the situation they are in via the time experiment memories. First of all, the Aurora would be stationary.

So only a 12.5 km radius (using your figure below) is under coverage of her guns. Seems odd to throw away the advantage of maneuver, but if that's what you think they'd prefer to do...

Stas Bush wrote:Second, they have facilities to produce WWI level arms, so I guess finding or making adequate replacement shells for the Aurora to fend off the British for as long as needed to collect enough coal for possible refuelling reserves is viable. Then, proceed to wipe the floor with what remains of the British.

Zor specifically wrote complete with the machine tools required to produce WW1 Russian small arms and ammunition. That absolutely rules out production of large-caliber naval artillery rounds. I'm just sticking with what Zor set out as the parameters of the thought-exercise...

Were the colonists mining coal in industrial quantities, at this point? From period research for various projects, I have the impression that they were burning wood for energy. Although I suppose you could posit their burning charcoal to feed the Aurora's boilers...

Stas Bush wrote:Guns of the sailships will utterly fail to penetrate Aurora's armor,

They'll bounce off her armored hull. But she's not all armor plate; 24-pdr naval cannon of the period would sure bang the shit out of her superstructure, masts, and deckhouses. And by this time the Royal Navy was using fragmentation shells, which would be unpleasant for any exposed crew, too.

Granted, of course, that the Brits do have to wait for the Russians to run out of ammo, before surviving in-close enough to hit them, at all.

Stas Bush wrote:The Royal Navy had 100 line ships. That's pathetic. The Aurora can sink them all without itching.

I bet that's true.

I wonder if the Brits might have tried enlisting the help of the French/Spanish/Portuguese/Dutch, against Aurora. If I were the British ambassador, I'd sure be working overtime to persuade my rivals' war ministers that a chunk of outrageous high-tech like the Aurora, in the hands of freelancers, is deeply undesirable for everybody.

TheDarkling wrote:The colonials probably aren't going to like an ideology opposed to slavery, religion, massive land speculation/wealth concentration and in favour of large scale government control.

Most likely they will quickly understand that supplying and supporting the commune is a key to advanced technology. The people from XX century have the experience to use it, produce it, and XX century productive machinery.

havokeff wrote:Would Lenin keep his same ideals in the land of plenty?

The idea that revolution can happen in "imperialist" countries is against his thesis, but I don't know if he counted the 177x United States as "imperialist". Then again, Lenin insisted that Russia was becoming an imperialist country of it's own by 1900s, so he probably would employ the same reasoning here. Remember also that he understands the situation he's in (i.e. he's a person with 2 centuries ahead technology, education, political thought and several thousand men like him). It would be unlikely for a follower of scientific progress such as him not to try to use this knowledge to his ends.

Kanastrous wrote:Really? Damn, that's impressive for the time.

Fairly easy; as for my sources, I actually was on the Aurora and remember it's technical plate distinctly. But you can find the same information on the cruiser Aurora official website >>

Kanastrous wrote:Given the Imperial Russian Navy's performance against the Japanese...let's just say that I'm unimpressed with the quality of their officer corps.

It's a post-1917 Aurora for all I understand. There's little remaining from "officer corps". And besides, the performance in RJW (1905) was against similar-TTC ships (with better shells, apparently, if we take Tsushima). This is a post-1917 ship with improved artillery, not to mention that even a 1905 Aurora would be overkill for the entire sail fleets of the time.

Kanastrous wrote:So only a 12.5 km radius (using your figure below) is under coverage of her guns.

Using up precious coal or leaving the coast where another 5000 people, in addition to Aurora's half a thousand crew, is not smart. Aurora can move in case it wants to conserve artillery shells. Frankly, it could sink any ship of the time with the 76,2 mm guns and be fine about it, while staying completely invincible. The effective range of smoothbore guns is measured in hundreds of meters. The British would probably be hard-pressed to confront anything mounted on Aurora on their wooden hulks of death.

Kanastrous wrote:That absolutely rules out production of large-caliber naval artillery rounds.

Artillery munitions are ruled out only for the first few years, until the Bolsheviks build the required machinery. In the immediate period, the Aurora would be conserving shells, too. The idea to go out and ram enemy ships is frankly quite okay as soon as the Bolsheviks secure a coalmine or cooperation of the coal miners.

Also, it came to my mind that reverse-engineering 177x manufactures to make at least grenades suitable for use in 152mm guns isn't that hard. With sufficient will, you could do that in several months I guess.

Remember, both Lenin and his companions know what fate beset them, and they know quite well that the Aurora is the most advanced tech piece they have, so their survival would depend on being able to hold to it, supplying with ammo and coal.

Kanastrous wrote:Were the colonists mining coal in industrial quantities, at this point?

No, but I doubt the Bolsheviks, in the course of several months, would not be able to persuade some of the local population to start up a new-technology equipped coalmine, sending advisors to boost coal production, and they receive coal which they need for Aurora. In 1770s first several dozen tons of coal were produced in various States, which gives - the Aurora, for coastal warfare, would hardly burn up more than several dozen tons. Pennsylvania has had coal mines from the 1760s, and there are large deposits of antracite coals which will be invigorated if there's demand. Remember, during the war with British, Americans used some anthracite coal for munitions production. With a 1000-ton coal storage aboard the Aurora, though, I don't see coal running out before the British fleet is wooden shreds.

Kanastrous wrote:They'll bounce off her armored hull.

Yep. Making damage to superstructure would require sailing very close. As I said, the range disparity is enormous. The Aurora would sink those dinosaurs from far out of their range... some of them would probably not even know what hit'em. Though, I suggest at first if they really take the American side, the Aurora would allow the British to come closer to see the uncanny ship, then blast the hell out of now matter how many ships come close.

Kanastrous wrote:Granted, of course, that the Brits do have to wait for the Russians to run out of ammo

They can't. Their entire line ship navy is 10% of Aurora's munitions storage... As soon as they come anywhere near Aurora's range, they're toast. I foresee the Bolsheviks first using the Aurora from some 5 km, so that the British do not have a clue about their true range. Then the RN tries to explore the "dangerous situation" with sending ships, some die as an example. The rest start circulating around at 5-6 km distance - that is, if they hadn't shit their pants already so much that they're ready to run away and never come back. Which is possible. When enough of them concentrated, they experience a bad surprise... Aurora would take only a few hundred shells to sink the entierty of the British RN. Oh, and no doubt the Americans would be greatly thankful to the revolutionaries for that

Kanastrous wrote:I wonder if the Brits might have tried enlisting the help of the French/Spanish/Portuguese/Dutch, against Aurora. If I were the British ambassador, I'd sure be working overtime to persuade my rivals' war ministers that a chunk of outrageous high-tech like the Aurora, in the hands of freelancers, is deeply undesirable for everybody.

That is if they get to understand what it is. If Lenin ensures tight cooperation with local government at least, the US would try to keep Aurora a secret as long as they can. With it being so hideously out of range for sailships, it could sink the British without even showing itself so that they know what it is. First more or less reliable intelligence reports would be gathered by the British only after a year or so (remember, that's freaking 177x we're talking about, no fast-line communications, etc). Then they can try to act... unless it isn't already too late. Sad for the woody guys, but they're done.

Now, if a European Coalition amasses some ships to attack the Aurora, how would that end? Answer: in total disaster.

Stas Bush wrote:

TheDarkling wrote:The colonials probably aren't going to like an ideology opposed to slavery, religion, massive land speculation/wealth concentration and in favour of large scale government control.

Most likely they will quickly understand that supplying and supporting the commune is a key to advanced technology. The people from XX century have the experience to use it, produce it, and XX century productive machinery.

By this point has the ideological structure surrounding Southern slavocracy developed? If so, I'm not so sure all the colonials are going to want access to that technology. Southern landowners have a vested interest in keeping control of their land and slaves. I'd almost think they might turn on their fellow colonials and join the Brits for it.

Stas Bush wrote:

havokeff wrote:Would Lenin keep his same ideals in the land of plenty?

The idea that revolution can happen in "imperialist" countries is against his thesis, but I don't know if he counted the 177x United States as "imperialist". Then again, Lenin insisted that Russia was becoming an imperialist country of it's own by 1900s, so he probably would employ the same reasoning here. Remember also that he understands the situation he's in (i.e. he's a person with 2 centuries ahead technology, education, political thought and several thousand men like him). It would be unlikely for a follower of scientific progress such as him not to try to use this knowledge to his ends.

Except that the landed classes (and rural lumpen) proved to be a big part of the counter-revolutionary movements against Lenin. It's not as though the rural lumpen in Russia of the early XX were any better off than rural folks in the XVIII, technologically speaking. We might be running into the same situation here.

Turin wrote:Except that the landed classes (and rural lumpen) proved to be a big part of the counter-revolutionary movements against Lenin.

Wouldn't the mass of tolling peasants be bigger, and just like in the Russian revolution, support Lenin for expropriation of land and seizure? the decree on land allowed peasants to seize land from landowners - I can foresee such a measure becoming popular in America. In fact, XX century political thought - a workable theory of socialist revolution - might be as important as "Aurora", because that's a time where only utopian socialist existed, but no real theory on how to drive a revolution to socialism.

Southern landowners have a vested interest in keeping control of their land and slaves. I'd almost think they might turn on their fellow colonials and join the Brits for it.

Those who cooperate at least providing coal for "Aurora" will be found. The Bolsheviks at first need no more than secure their coastal city and a coalmine (better several, but even one will suffice, deposits are large enough). With XX century small arms, that's rather easy. Mass manufacture Maxims, keep the Aurora near the coast, and you're good to go. Some of the population will inevitably flock to the new "techno-gods" and provide replenishment of workforce and expansion. Attacking the Bolshevik city full of XX century arms with Aurora parked along the coast will be very, very stupid for those Southerners who risk to do it. After a harsh lesson, some of them at least will come to fear, respect and thus cooperate - with backstabbing, overpricing, unwillingly, but they will cooperate

Turin wrote:By this point has the ideological structure surrounding Southern slavocracy developed?

Not really, no. The Founding Fathers tended to regard slavery as an evil which was on its way out, and good riddance. Slaveholding did not assume its critical role in the Southern way of life until much later, after the early-to-mid 19th century development of cotton cultivation into the backbone of the Southern economy and the development of the abolitionist movement, to which the Southern slaveholder replied with the development of a complex apologia and spirited defense of the institution. Individual property rights, as pertaining to smallholders and small businessmen, and the importance of Yankee mercantile capitalism, are a much more important barrier to the Soviets.

On the other hand, one can't underestimate the Bolsheviks, if they're being led by Lenin and Trotsky. They'll probably be willing to compromise their ideology to existing conditions, especially when they find themselves in the pre-industrial period--at which point Marxist ideology says it's impossible to have communism.

Also, the earth-shattering influence that the sudden appearance of the Bolsheviks with all their modern technology will have on the popular consciousness shouldn't be dismissed. Men from the future coming from nowhere with amazing new weapons and preaching a wholly new concept of social organization would have a powerful effect.

It'll help Lenin and co. that many of the Founding Fathers had rather unconventional attitudes towards religion, particularly organized religion.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:

Turin wrote:By this point has the ideological structure surrounding Southern slavocracy developed?

Not really, no. The Founding Fathers tended to regard slavery as an evil which was on its way out, and good riddance. Slaveholding did not assume its critical role in the Southern way of life until much later, after the early-to-mid 19th century development of cotton cultivation...

Thanks. So "Southern culture" is less of a problem for the Bolsheviks.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Individual property rights, as pertaining to smallholders and small businessmen, and the importance of Yankee mercantile capitalism, are a much more important barrier to the Soviets.

Good point. Another item to point out is that while the Founders were pretty unorthodox about religion, Calvinism was pretty well entrenched in the North. This creates a serious ideological divide between the North and the Bolsheviks.

Stas Bush wrote:

Turin wrote:Except that the landed classes (and rural lumpen) proved to be a big part of the counter-revolutionary movements against Lenin.

Wouldn't the mass of tolling peasants be bigger, and just like in the Russian revolution, support Lenin for expropriation of land and seizure?

But that (according to Lenin) depends on having a large proletarian cadre. In this scenario we've got ~5000 Russian proletarians, something on the order of a 2 million peasants, and no local proletariat. The October proletariat was something like 10% of the population. Is the Russian contingent large enough to serve as a cadre for a nation with population figures like this? I can see some kind of peasant & slave uprising in the South, but how's that going to go over with Northerners?

Stas Bush wrote:Also, the earth-shattering influence that the sudden appearance of the Bolsheviks with all their modern technology will have on the popular consciousness shouldn't be dismissed. Men from the future coming from nowhere with amazing new weapons and preaching a wholly new concept of social organization would have a powerful effect.

I'm trying not to dismiss this, but I'm trying to look at it from the perspective of the colonists, too. You just had a whole bunch of people show up with technology and a strange culture. Are you going to trust them, or might you be wary of these potential conquerors? Remember, something like 15-20% of the population were Loyalists to the British crown. Now you have what are effectively aliens landing.

stas wrote:

Turin wrote:Southern landowners have a vested interest in keeping control of their land and slaves. I'd almost think they might turn on their fellow colonials and join the Brits for it.

Those who cooperate at least providing coal for "Aurora" will be found. The Bolsheviks at first need no more than secure their coastal city and a coalmine (better several, but even one will suffice, deposits are large enough). With XX century small arms, that's rather easy.

If they don't immediately make nice with the colonists, they also have to set up agriculture, which is a non-trivial expenditure of manpower.

But that (according to Lenin) depends on having a large proletarian cadre.

Proletarians were needed to seize cities, while peasant revolts against landmasters helped secure victory in the rural areas of the civil war. But Lenin is not in an industrial society, and he doesn't have a cadre base across the country. He won't be pushing for some huge revolution straightaway, most likely, Lenin would probably start with creating a high-tech commune with his small city. Assuming that composition of Bolsheviks includes ship and weapon engineers, and workers, I'm sure at least some common peasantry will flock to "humans from the future with super-technology preaching a new age of man".

Now you have what are effectively aliens landing.

Yes, but Lenin's initial goal would not be to immediately start a revolution in all America. They'd start from recruiting at least some cooperative locals to run agriculture in the city vinicity, have new manpower for industries, secure coal supplies.

Also, why would Lenin want to alienate Americans, knowing that he has only 5570 men? Sure, advanced weapons, but a Zulu-like scenario is possible on land. On the other side, he has a valuable naval asset among others, which can immediately become useful for Americans. "Men from the future with a supership help Americans fight for freedom!" - there's ten bucks that American leaders will accept this offer at least for the time being.

Stas Bush wrote: Most likely they will quickly understand that supplying and supporting the commune is a key to advanced technology.

And what use to them is that if they have to give up their wealth and much vaunted independence?

This is in addition to the fact that a good number of the higher ups n the ARW were simply in it to gain power for themselves or create some pseudo libertarian paradise (Jefferson, Sam Adams etc), neither group is going to react well to some foreigners coming in and imposing level of government control unheard of throughout the world.

The people from XX century have the experience to use it, produce it, and XX century productive machinery.

Do they?

How much knowledge are 5,000 Russians from the early 20th century going to have?

Then they have the problem of actually being develop that technology which has no base to build upon.

The Russians are going to have to impose their rule at the point of a gun and the question becomes whether they can slaughter enough Americans whilst the American sneak about killing them in their beds or poisoning them.

Turin wrote: By this point has the ideological structure surrounding Southern slavocracy developed?

It wasn't the defining characteristic but people still had a lot of capital tied up in their slaves and if nothing else taking that property away would be viewed as a despotic measure.

It is worth pointing out that the Emancipation proclamation made by the British with regard to the slaves of rebels lost them a lot of friends in the south.

However there is also the problem of what to do with the freed slaves because the white folk sure as hell aren't going to want them treated as equals.

I'd almost think they might turn on their fellow colonials and join the Brits for it.

The Brits aren't going to be able to do much and I doubt the Northerners are going to be enthusiastic about the communists either given the foundation of New England revolutionary fervour was Sam Adam's "government is evil" libertarian ideology, a communist government is going to reach into the daily lives of the people in a way that would probably cause Adams to spontaneously combust (although in just about every other respect he is rather similiar to Lenin).