Primarchs-Gods of War?

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Primarchs-Gods of War?

Post by Ezekyle Abaddon » 2007-09-08 06:41pm

having just been reading the book "Fulgrim" I noticed that the primarchs are almo unbeatable when it comes to intelligence or battle skills. The one example that sticks in my head is Fulgrim fighting an Avatar of Kaine (the Eldar God of war and a daemon in its own right) to a standstill before his daemon possessed sword shattered the things own weapon wherapon he punched his hand into its head(which is made of liquid metal with a solid skin) then pulling it out then choking the thing to death. So does anyone have any ideas what could kill them bar each other an Anatheme( the weapon that wounded Horus) or suicidal tendancies?

Help?
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Post by Lancer » 2007-09-08 07:08pm

Any sufficiently powerful Greater Daemon, a Phoenix Lord, a life-eater viruses, another Primarch, massed firepower, or one of the Eldar Lords of old (the guys who could fight entire armies of Necrons to a standstill, armed only with melee weapons).

Fulgrim only prevailed against the Ulthewe Avatar because he had his funky Laer demon-sword. Without the guidance and strength it provided, he would have been impaled from behind by the Avatar's Wailing Doom, and it would have been the end of that particular story.

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Post by Ezekyle Abaddon » 2007-09-09 09:02am

the whole point of this is not to generalise as we know thta a Life Eater strain could kill a Primarch but to try and define what this would take.
For example could a Primarch kill a Phoenix Lord easily or would they be wounded? or how much "massed firepower" would it take? we are working on suppositions as their biological makeup is vastly diffrent from what we know about today.
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Post by NecronLord » 2007-09-09 10:16am

Matt Huang wrote:Any sufficiently powerful Greater Daemon, a Phoenix Lord, a life-eater viruses, another Primarch, massed firepower, or one of the Eldar Lords of old (the guys who could fight entire armies of Necrons to a standstill, armed only with melee weapons).
Err. Yes. Because those stories couldn't be metaphors, or corrupted during their sixty million years as oral tradition, even ignoring the prescence of actual gods, and weapons thereof, on the battlefield.


As for their actual biological makeup; flesh and bone, just like you and me, though their bones are probably denser, as in space marines. They're 'infused with warp power' or some damn thing, that makes them stupendously over-the-top feats of strength. Primarily, they're immensely lucky. Horus Rising shows quite clearly that they can be wounded by 'normal' weapons, in this case, the super arrows. A few hundred, maybe even a dozen, or one through the eye, of those arrows and Horus would be doing a King Harold impression.

It's possible they have literal actual character shields - after all demon princes have demonic saves, which essentially seem to be 'I'm a demon, I'm immune to logic, your guns *don't* shred me even though I'm capering into battle nude'
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Post by Ezekyle Abaddon » 2007-09-09 11:01am

Could anyonw figure out how much force it would take to rip off a persons heaf and throw it for hundreds of feet? this would give us an idea as to how much force it would take to knock one unconcious, dicounting that this was a power hammer that did it.
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Post by NecronLord » 2007-09-09 11:07am

Knock a head hundreds of feet over a given time is a quite easy derivation of force. Knocking it off, on the other hand, is quite beyond me. You'd probably need to do experiments with dead pigs.

It's not that impressive, anyway. You'll likely find it's not much more impressive than say, Ra's hand-weapon in Stargate (which comes out at 800 N) because sending something flying doesn't take that much force, as a rule.
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Post by Peptuck » 2007-09-09 12:34pm

It's possible they have literal actual character shields - after all demon princes have demonic saves, which essentially seem to be 'I'm a demon, I'm immune to logic, your guns *don't* shred me even though I'm capering into battle nude'
This is easily one of my favorite aspects of 40k. Just about anything odd, strange, or compeltely nonsensical can be explained away with the Warp. Daemons, by their very nature, are immune to logic.
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Post by Ezekyle Abaddon » 2007-09-09 01:14pm

In that case some of the people who have passed through this sitr must have been Greater Daemons
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Post by NecronLord » 2007-09-09 01:33pm

Yes. Some of our trolls are clearly things of gibbering formless chaos. Anyway, moving back to the point, I think it's definately more a case of 'Primarchs are incredibly lucky, as much as they are charismatic' rather than 'You can fire a boltgun into their face and it won't scratch them.' Especially given the arrow in Horus Rising
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Post by Ezekyle Abaddon » 2007-09-09 02:30pm

I thought that that would not work either considering the incident with Alpharius when he waded into a stream of bolter fire in an attempt to attack Horus before they were brothers, it was this that proved that they were related.
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Post by NecronLord » 2007-09-09 02:52pm

Ezekyle Abaddon wrote:I thought that that would not work either considering the incident with Alpharius when he waded into a stream of bolter fire in an attempt to attack Horus before they were brothers, it was this that proved that they were related.
You'd think the fact that they were both the size of Ogryns and radiate near-palpable waves of Charisma would be sufficient, there. :P
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Post by Lost Soal » 2007-09-09 04:19pm

NecronLord wrote:Yes. Some of our trolls are clearly things of gibbering formless chaos. Anyway, moving back to the point, I think it's definately more a case of 'Primarchs are incredibly lucky, as much as they are charismatic' rather than 'You can fire a boltgun into their face and it won't scratch them.' Especially given the arrow in Horus Rising
Yes the arrow, which went partly into Horus' arm and suck their unnoticed. Meanwhile against the normal astartes, who are already tougher than regular humans, the arrows were smashing through the marines and both sides of the power armour while imparting enough momentum to send them backwards. In other words, the living tissue of Horus was tougher than Marine power armour which is capable of stopping bolter rounds.

Then there's the battle between Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus, where Fulgrims blows were"powerful enough to crush the armour of a Titan to paste". One of these blows crashes into the top of Ferrus' skull and not only doesn't kill him but he's able to deliver his own counter blow and would have defeated Fulgrim had the Laer Sword not pumped more strength into him.

Their may well be some innate luck involved but there is definitely more to it as well as some truth to the legends of them being inhumanly strong and tough
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Post by Ezekyle Abaddon » 2007-09-09 04:22pm

If these were Trekkies they would be complaining about hyperbole but after reading the published material about them one would realise that most of what is heard about them is true.
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Post by NecronLord » 2007-09-09 05:03pm

Lost Soal wrote:Yes the arrow, which went partly into Horus' arm and suck their unnoticed. Meanwhile against the normal astartes, who are already tougher than regular humans, the arrows were smashing through the marines and both sides of the power armour while imparting enough momentum to send them backwards. In other words, the living tissue of Horus was tougher than Marine power armour which is capable of stopping bolter rounds.
Can Horus be noticably damaged by Interex weapons? Yes.
Can Horus' brain survive the trauma of a Interex weapon entering it? Not that we know of. Presumably not.
∴ can Horus be killed by massed fire of the same unenchanted weapons? Yes.

Then there's the battle between Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus, where Fulgrims blows were"powerful enough to crush the armour of a Titan to paste".
Hyperbole. Graham McNeill is pretty much the master of Hyperbole. He's the one with demons 'older than the universe' when the new chaos codex reiterates that Khorne's oldest demons came into existance when humanity was making war on its homeworld. Do you seriously think he could walk up to a titan, smack it one, and destroy it? Even though, you know, Leman Russ couldn't... even in legend.

Momentum has to go somewhere. Logically, even if Ferrus were invulnerable to harm, such a blow would have at least him through the floor, which would be turned to paste...
One of these blows crashes into the top of Ferrus' skull and not only doesn't kill him but he's able to deliver his own counter blow and would have defeated Fulgrim had the Laer Sword not pumped more strength into him.
And? I didn't say they weren't tough, I said they can be wounded by normal weapons, consequently they can be killed by them.

Their may well be some innate luck involved but there is definitely more to it as well as some truth to the legends of them being inhumanly strong and tough
Inhumanly strong and tough (Note that I suggested dozens to hundreds of Interex arrows would be requied, and talked about them being 'stupendously over the top). Yes. Superman I-can-take-a-bullet-RIGHT-INNA-EYE no.

Next you'll be telling me you take the Index Astartes legend about Ferrus Manus being able to lift and carry an entire mountain range around on his back seriously.
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Post by NecronLord » 2007-09-09 05:25pm

Ezekyle Abaddon wrote:If these were Trekkies they would be complaining about hyperbole but after reading the published material about them one would realise that most of what is heard about them is true.
Err. Why bring Trek into it? Other than pointless bashing.

The published material about them is almost all legend, aside from the Heresy books, which while they're somewhat impressive, don't make the Primarchs out to be nearly impressive as "Hah, Puny Asirnoth, I can lift this here Alpine Range and trudge across country with it."

Yes. McNeill's prose has things like 'turn titan armour to paste' it also has Fulgrim at least having some difficulty (it punches him off his feet, and makes blood come out of his mouth, cracking his breastplate - Fulgrim P.294) with a wraithlord.

Are we expected to believe that a Wraithlord is more formidable than a Titan? That a titan-armou-smooshing blow to the head doesn't wound a Primarch, yet a Wraithlord can? It's a poor lookout for the Imperium if those eldar stop fucking about and send wraithlords into battl- wait...

Incidentally, I'd like a page for the 'turn titan armour to paste' quote. I've got a 'crush the helmet of Tactical Dreadnought Armour' punch from Fulgrim (p.384) bruising Manus. But not that...
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Post by NecronLord » 2007-09-09 05:38pm

Ahah. P. 483-484.

"The Strength to defeat armies and topple mountains unleashed as they fought like gods forced to fight their battles in the realm of mortals. Ferrus Manus weilded his flaming blade in firey slashes, his every blow defeated by the ebony hafted hammer he had borne in countless campaigns.
"Fulgrim swung his hammer in great looping arcs, its heavy head powerful enough to crush the armour of a titan to paste. Both warriors fought with the hatred only brothers divided can muster, their armour dented, torn and blackened by the fury of their conflict."

You're telling me that's literal? Even though it's actually self contradictory (the first paragraph, and they are both consecutive, claiming that every one of Ferus' blows was blocked by Fulgrim, the second, claiming that both brothers' armour was damaged) and it claims that they could topple mountains.

By that standard, Ferrus Manus could have just whacked the ground as he drew near to the enemy during the battle, and the resulting crater would surely have collapsed all of the Warmaster's seigeworks. :lol:
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Post by NecronLord » 2007-09-09 06:18pm

Let’s consider further, for example. This stuff about overturning mountains, I don’t even want to imagine how much force is involved, but to move a mountain say, ten meters, means you’re going to be moving a ton (less, probably. But I’ll guess that as an upper limit - they don’t sink into the ground immediately after getting off their stormbirds, and don’t have marines scuttling along laying duckboards for them to walk on during battles, where ground tends to if anything, get muddier. Fun though that would be. I might model a Dreadnought with that, some time) The kind of force even moving a mountain ten meters is going to send a Primarch flying. Literally flying.

You want to assess characters, especially in 40K? Don’t take hyperbolic quotes for it. Examine what they do.

For example, we actually have an example of a C’tan attacking Titan armour plate directly.
Deus Ex Mechanicus wrote:Adept Santos seemed affronted by Borrs implied criticism. 'We have a fifteen gigawatt laser mesh, twenty armed servitors and storm-bunkers built out of cubit thick, Titan grade armourplas panels. What could possibly go wrong?'
[…]
'I fear the thing out there may survive the blast anyway If so it would be better to-´ A ringing blow sounded against the hatch, making both Osil and Lakius jump. Then another blow slammed into it, then a third. At the third blow a bulge appeared in the Titangrade adamantium plate. Silence fell.
'I think we'd better look 'at those components, Osil.' Lakius said, struggling to his feet. Osfl fussed around him, his fears assuaged by having someone else to think about. He showed Lakius the ready-caskets and crates he had brought.
I´ve performed the rites of preparation on these pieces, and anointed the calibrators,' Osil said hopefully. A hissing, popping noise came from the hatch, and a bright heat-spot formed at its center.
Lakius looked at the mass of unconnected components and despaired.
THE HEAT SPOT had made a complete orbit of the door, leaving a trail of molten fire behind it. As the circle was closed the metal fell inward of its own weight, danging to the ground and sending up a cloud of reeking fumes. A tall, inhuman figure stepped through the gap.
There is a character (and a 'diety,' no less) actually attacking what is twice reiterated to be titan grade plate directly (though presumably the hatch is weaker than the roughly 45 centimeter thick plate referred to) and we can see what his strength does to it (though admittedly, given the later additions to the C'tan concept one presumes he could have stepped through at any time, but C’tan are, as he admits in the same story, tremendously melodramatic creatures). In comparison, a self-contradictory passage, that includes blatantly obvious hyperbole, really doesn’t cut the mustard.

If a blow from Fulgrim’s hammer could turn titan armour to mush, why was Ferrus Manus’ armour not useless – evidently it wasn’t, if we take that passage literally as both brothers’ armour was ‘dented’ and ‘blackened’ but not liquefied in large areas as the hyperbolic quote implies.

Again, because I’m sure someone will misinterpret: I’m not saying Primarchs are weak. Nor merely as strong as space marines, or any such thing. I’m not saying physical limits necessarily apply to them. I’m saying they can be damaged by conventional weapons, albeit this is difficult, because they are resistant to damage, but it is possible. Quotes about them carrying mountain ranges on their backs, toppling mountains, pulverising titan armour, hyperbole. They’re mighty, but they’re not (the more absurd renditions of) Superman.

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Post by Ford Prefect » 2007-09-09 07:42pm

Ezekyle Abaddon wrote:I thought that that would not work either considering the incident with Alpharius when he waded into a stream of bolter fire in an attempt to attack Horus before they were brothers, it was this that proved that they were related.
He wasn't actually hit; Horus guns down Alpharius' men when they burst in, but when he tries it with Alpharius himself, the young Primarch dodges (barely out of the way).
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Post by Dark Hellion » 2007-09-09 07:50pm

My personal theory is that part of their luck is also the fact that even the Primarchs themselves do not know their own warp-based powers extent. Their abilities seem to fluctuate very much dependent upon their moods and the situations they are in.

While most of the description of them is hyperbolic, it is very difficult to determine which is because the Primarchs seem to canonically vary in power wildly, and seem to be unconsciously more powerful than they ever consciously manifest. I am looking forward to the future Horus Heresy books to see if my theory is proven or disproved.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-09-10 12:46am

What some people call "luck" I'll call "unconscious psychokinetic defense fields", but hey...

There are plenty of indications in earlier fluff as to how powerful (physically) the Primarchs were, in most respecst they were the physical equilvaent (but not the psychic) of the Emperor, and some had abilities the GEoM didn't have.

As for the "legends"...
The Strength to defeat armies and topple mountains
Note a key detail lacking.. no timeframe. It does not (in this context at least) indicate whether it is a single blow, a series of lbows, or what. "Strrength" can just as easily refer to endurance as well as the ability to exert power/force on osmething. In fact, ,given the "defeat armies" bit I'd be pretty sure it could not mean "a single hit" unless the Primarch were toppling them like dominos - it would require some sort of DBZ-like "projection" attack and that would break the whole "physical strength" angle itself. Same applies with "toppling mountains" - you can topple a mountain given enough time. In this context, its a reference to both staying power and raw power.

As for the "crushing Titan armour" bit, again we're lacking any precise details. Its fairly obvious he can't be crushing an entire titan like tinfoil without DBZ-esque "projection" attacks (a massive TK attack, basically), and thats not really what is implied here. Titan armour isn't uniformly thick, and even then, its not giving an indication of depth or size of the "damage".

In any case, there is one further aspect of the Primarchs which often gets ignored. Their fearsome combat ability comes not only from their own inherent abilities, it comes from the fact that they tend to wield weaponry that makes anythign an Inquisitor would have look like a frigging toothpick (Russ's various weapons, the Spear of Telesto, the Soulspear, etc.)

Given a sufficiently powerful weapon (which they have) they could also accomplish many of the above feats (but again remember, that the details above are vague.)

The same probably goes with their armour and other gear. They probably get even bigger offensive boosts from their power armor, for example, thna a regular space marine. Its also quite likely they make use of all sorts of technoglocial forcefield defenses and tricks (those displacement shields that teleporrt you when hit, regular reflector or conversion fields, etc.)

Having super-poweful equipment can also fit in the context of "mythical exggeration of abilities" angle as well - I'm reminded of how Goge Vandire used a force shield in his Rosarius to fool the DAughters of the Emperor into serving him.

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Post by Ritterin Sophia » 2007-09-10 01:25am

Is Sanguinius' breaking a Bloodthirster over his knee exaggeration or fact?
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2007-09-10 02:07am

General Schatten wrote:Is Sanguinius' breaking a Bloodthirster over his knee exaggeration or fact?
It's fact, baring any retcons. To be fair, there was a big wrestling match between the two before Sanguinius finished him.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia » 2007-09-10 03:05am

Imperial Overlord wrote:
General Schatten wrote:Is Sanguinius' breaking a Bloodthirster over his knee exaggeration or fact?
It's fact, baring any retcons. To be fair, there was a big wrestling match between the two before Sanguinius finished him.
That's still rather impressive considering Bloodthirsters DO laugh off bolter rounds to the face.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-09-10 03:14am

There ARE some limiting considerations to that though. All evidence I have seen (and in here I am thinking of the Blood Angels novels, the Eye of Terror novel, and The Traitors Hand Cain novel) point to Daemons needing to possess or inhabit some sort of mass present in realspace to have any tangibility - this in fact seems to be one of the key points of a sacrifice - to provide organic mass for the daemon to inhabit and shape as it wants. Even then it may not look as "massive" as it appears - much of the daemon could be (for lack of a better term) animating force (think of it as inherent TK used to structurally reinforce the host body, or make it stronger/more solid.) A Daemon such as a Bloodthirster, therefore, might not look all that massive.

There's also a small matter as to whether the "body" actually is just animate matter or is actually a living/breathing being. In the case of the former I doubt "breaking the spine" would do much good, since Daemons don't really "need" a body in the way we do to exist. In the latter, its probably more a matter of destroying/killing the host body, but again then you're probably looking at the "host" not being very big either (dictated by certain biological limits.)

As for "Taking bolt rounds to the face" - well again we get back to the Daemon "TK strengthening" its body - its more of an active defense, somethign that could be bypassed under the right circumstnacecs (the right kind of weapon or delivered in such a way that it cannot be easily defended against - ie by surprise.) In the case of a Primarch, there is probably a case for them having some sort of "blessing/enchantment" on their weapons/gear (if not some inherent warp-derived talent) for bypassing/negating such defenses. Another way to look at it might be some variation of what an untouchable can do (some psykers can generate fields that can nullify other psyker's abilities, and leave their own unaffected, IIRC.)

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Post by Ezekyle Abaddon » 2007-09-10 05:03am

If it is true that the Primarchs do have warp based luck powers does that mean that on some level they can use Force weapons (Fireblade,Forgebreaker and Horus's Mace) as I think that at one point in Fulgrim Fireblade was wreathed in flame.
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