More 40K questions, this time about ships...

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More 40K questions, this time about ships...

Post by fusion » 2007-09-03 11:20pm

I have a few questions:
Have any one heard of this Hexathedral Assault Citadel and if so could provide me a link and picture?
Also which of these ships is more powerful: Battle barge, Emperor Class, Apocalypse Class, or Retribution Class? Also are they all around 19 klicks long?
Lastly what is the single most powerful weapon can fielded by the Imperial Navy?

Your answers will be appreciated. :)

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Post by locomotive23 » 2007-09-04 12:08am

I dont know a whole lot about 40k since I dont play the game and i only own one model of an escort ship, but Im pretty sure the Apocalypse battleship is the strongest. It has been mentioned that its irreplacable and it is the only ship you listed with a nova cannon.

As for the citadel do you mean this?
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/ramilies.htm

Thats a ramilies class star fort.

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Re: More 40K questions, this time about ships...

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-09-04 12:51am

fusion wrote:I have a few questions:
Have any one heard of this Hexathedral Assault Citadel and if so could provide me a link and picture?
No fucking clue.
Also which of these ships is more powerful: Battle barge, Emperor Class, Apocalypse Class, or Retribution Class?
The Emperor class is the biggest and IIRC most powerful, especially with its substnatial carrier capacity, though the bulk of its firepower is in weapons batteries. Its slow as fuck though.

the Apocalypse is a Retribution predecessor/variant, but has better tech allowing it to field more lances than a Retribution, which gives it an edge in some respects, so I'd say its probably better than the REtribution too.

"Battle BargeS" are hard to fit into that list because there is no one single design for a battle barge. "Battle Barge" is less a distinct class than it is a term to indicate a Space Marine's battleship analogue. They can take many different configurations and their armaments (and thus firepower) can also differ. Some ChapterS (like the Space WolveS) field Battle Barges which are really just captured warships, or literal battelships held over from the past. Some Chapters will also use battleships as a battle barge as well, while others have their own "barges" built to their own desired specifications (or may build them themselves..)

In general they're probably equal to any battleship the Imperium could field, although there could be some Battle Barges that are bigger or more powerful. Though alot of their armament will be projectile weapons (like bombardment cannons, as well as projectile weapons batteries) because of their planetary assault role, and this limits their effective range. (Though a fair number of Barges do mount lancecs as well.) Barges also tend to be significantly tougher (better armoured/shielded) than a conventional battleship, but also lack significant fighter forces or manuverability.

Also are they all around 19 klicks long?
The classes you mentioned? No. Most battleships are around 6-7 km long as far as I know, the bigger ones like the Emperor might be a bit bigger, and I've heard some battle barges could get up to 12 km long or so.

That said they DO have some kind of 20 km long ship, but we dont know what kind of ship it is or its purpose, aside from the fact its used in offensive roles (at least in s upportting grorund assault.) The AdMech have 10-11 mile long warships as well for conveying their own ground forces.

Lastly what is the single most powerful weapon can fielded by the Imperial Navy?

Your answers will be appreciated. :)
Outside of Exterimnatus grade weaponry like cyclonic torepdoes, (which are not, strictly speaking, ship to ship weapons) that would be the nova cannon. (A big axial near-c projectile-launching cannon.)

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Post by white_rabbit » 2007-09-04 08:23am

Have any one heard of this Hexathedral Assault Citadel and if so could provide me a link and picture?
Yep, they first Appeared in " Obvious Tactics " by Dave Pugh, I've since seen them in Daemonifuge,although lacking the Crustbuster gun, and the Gaunts Ghost's series. I've got a piccie of one scanned in, I'll post it up later. Hexathedrals are modular staging platforms for planetary fortification and invasion, and are assembled in around 24 hours by heavy tug craft. They are typically used to remove problematic continental features, land bridges and their ilk.

Mr Abnett has clearly read Obvious tactics, since he also uses Devourer dropships and makes reference to the huge troopships that launch Devourers.
Also which of these ships is more powerful: Battle barge, Emperor Class, Apocalypse Class, or Retribution Class? Also are they all around 19 klicks long?
I think in a one on one duel, it'd probably come down to the Emperor versus the Apocalypse, while the Emperor has got decent batteries and hefty carrier capacity, the Apocalypse is built to take out enemy capital ships, its simply better at it.

By Battlebarge you probably mean the characteristic spacemarine model that was released, with the hammerhead style prow and a common design motif with the various other "space marine" fleet models.

the ruleset represents what is most likely the Macragge pattern vessel, and it probably wouldn't do all that well against an Imperial Navy battleship unless it survived to Bombardment cannon range. So a lot of the argument is scenario dependant. At pointblank, I'd bet on the space marine ship winning, at longer range...probably not.

Marines also occasionally refer to smaller ships as Battlebarges, so its a wide range, and the classic battlebarge design can be refitted extensively, at least one Ultramarine battlebarge is a Lanceboat, the Blood Angels have at least two Battlebarges equipped for heavy fleet combat, with signifcantly upgunned prow cannons designed to take down enemy capital ships, as well as lance weaponry.
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Re: More 40K questions, this time about ships...

Post by fusion » 2007-09-04 07:07pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Also are they all around 19 klicks long?
The classes you mentioned? No. Most battleships are around 6-7 km long as far as I know, the bigger ones like the Emperor might be a bit bigger, and I've heard some battle barges could get up to 12 km long or so.

That said they DO have some kind of 20 km long ship, but we dont know what kind of ship it is or its purpose, aside from the fact its used in offensive roles (at least in s upportting grorund assault.) The AdMech have 10-11 mile long warships as well for conveying their own ground forces.
Thats very weird I have heard them to be about 8-9 miles long and 10-12 miles for the largest battle barge which translate to 15-17 klicks for average battleship and 18.5-22 klicks for largest battlebarge.

Otherwise I will thank-you for the contributions so far,but I am still looking for more info please. Also, I am still looking for the Hexathedral Assault Citadel which I have just read have a planet busting weapon, or something similar. Can anyone verify that?

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Post by fusion » 2007-09-04 07:12pm

getto edit: scratch the question about the planet buster cannon part, it was answered in white_rabbit's post... sorry :(

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2007-09-04 08:16pm

Typical Imperial battleship is about 6-7km.

Of the ships you name, a Battle Barge (of one of the Maccrage Pattern) is probably the most powerful. Their weaponry tends to be closer ranged than that of other Battleships, but they pack a lot of ordinance to help make up for it and are quite hard to damage with weapon batteries and bombers.
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Post by fusion » 2007-09-04 09:28pm

PS: Is the Planet Killer about 30 klicks long?
That would help because I can scale from there.

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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor » 2007-09-04 11:55pm

Some questions: What sort of weaponry do these ships sport and the technology behind them?
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Post by Dominus » 2007-09-05 12:29am

As far as Imperial ships go, it's mostly a mixed bag. Taken directly from the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook:
Battlefleet Gothic wrote:DIRECT FIRING: LANCES

Lances are incredibly high-powered energy
weapons that are capable of burning straight
through an armoured hull or cutting an escort ship
in two. On Imperial and Chaos ships, lances are
usually mounted in huge turrets with quad or
triple energy projectors that focus into a
concentrated beam of destruction.

DIRECT FIRING:
WEAPONS BATTERIES

Weapons batteries form the main armament for
most warships, ensuring that much of their hull is
pock-marked by gun ports and weapon housings.
Each battery consists of rank upon rank of
weapons: plasma projectors, laser cannons, missile
launchers, rail guns, fusion beamers and graviton
pulsars. Weapons batteries fire by salvoes, using a
co-ordinated pattern of shots to catch the target in
the middle of a maelstrom of destruction.

NOVA CANNON

A nova cannon is a huge weapon, normally
mounted in the prow of a ship so that the recoil it
generates can be compensated for by the vessel’s
engines. It fires a projectile at incredible velocity,
using graviometric impellers to accelerate it to
close to light speed. The projectile implodes at a
preset distance after firing, unleashing a force
more potent than a dozen plasma bombs.

TORPEDOES

The term ‘torpedo’ has always been used to
describe any long-range missile carried by a
spaceship. A typical anti-ship torpedo is over 200
feet long and powered by a plasma reactor, which
also acts as a sizeable portion of its warhead,
turning it into a devastating plasma bomb. The
area of a ship given over to the torpedo tubes is a
massive space criss-crossed by lifts, hoists and
gantry cranes for moving the huge missiles from
the armoured magazine silos where they are
stored to the launch tubes.

Once a torpedo is launched, the plasma drive
propels the torpedo forward at high speed, whilst
beginning an energy build-up which will
culminate in its detonation. Torpedoes have a
limited ability to detect a target and will alter
course to intercept if they pass within a few
thousand kilometres of a vessel.
Not all ships carry all these weapon systems, however--for example, the Apocalypse is a dedicated capital ship killing platform, and mounts some of the most powerful (but shortest-ranged) lance batteries in all of BFG, as well as a nova cannon. The Emperor-class is armed only with 'traditional' weapons batteries, but they are very long-ranged and put up a fearsome wall of firepower; one of the highest firepower values in BFG, in fact. It's also a dedicated carrier ship, housing a large number of fightercraft and bombers, as well as assault boats for boarding actions. The Retribution is armed with a mix of heavy weapons batteries, weak (long-range) lances and torpedoes, while the Oberon (a variation of the Emperor-class) sacrifices some of the latter's flight decks for additional lance batteries. Space Marine battle barges are primarily designed around planetary assault, but they are armed with bombardment cannons and extremely thick armor--the fact that they can outrun every Navy battleship in the fleet sans the Retribution is an added bonus.

As for the technology, well, it often seems more primitive than it actually is, especially given that lances alone have been calculated to have a yield somewhere in the petaton range and 'normal' weapons batteries are capable of putting out at least megatons per salvo. There's also the oft-quoted yield of 100 gigatons or some-such for a nuclear-armed Imperial torpedo floating around somewhere... ah yes, here it is.

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Post by Lone_Prodigy » 2007-09-05 12:39am

fusion wrote:PS: Is the Planet Killer about 30 klicks long?
That would help because I can scale from there.
Supposedly it uses ancient Slann technology so scaling with its firepower is inaccurate at best, but Connor's calcs in the "Shadow Point" thread place it at approximately 100x battleship firepower. Assuming the same dimensions and, say, an 8km battleship, the PK is approximately 37km long. Unless there's some other quotes with regards to its size or firepower, somewhere in that range is a safe bet.
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Post by KlavoHunter » 2007-09-05 01:30am

Lone_Prodigy wrote:
fusion wrote:PS: Is the Planet Killer about 30 klicks long?
That would help because I can scale from there.
Supposedly it uses ancient Slann technology so scaling with its firepower is inaccurate at best, but Connor's calcs in the "Shadow Point" thread place it at approximately 100x battleship firepower. Assuming the same dimensions and, say, an 8km battleship, the PK is approximately 37km long. Unless there's some other quotes with regards to its size or firepower, somewhere in that range is a safe bet.
I seem to recall a squadron of Imperial cruisers catching the PK away from its attendant fleet and giving it a hellacious shellacking at extreme range with torpedoes, that drove it back into the Eye of Terror for major repairs.

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Post by Dominus » 2007-09-05 01:43am

KlavoHunter wrote:I seem to recall a squadron of Imperial cruisers catching the PK away from its attendant fleet and giving it a hellacious shellacking at extreme range with torpedoes, that drove it back into the Eye of Terror for major repairs.
If I recall correctly, that was actually how Battlefleet Gothic finally destroyed the Planet Killer, which Abaddon had already abandoned by this point after his failure to capture the remaining Blackstone Fortresses, and the near-total collapse and reversal of his invasion of the Gothic Sector.

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Post by Lone_Prodigy » 2007-09-05 02:01am

IIRC, the PK lacked long-range weapons such as torpedos, so the massively outgunned cruisers just stayed at extreme range and pounded the PK into dust. It didn't have any similarly-ranged weapons and it was too slow to chase down the cruisers. Doubtlessly the PK could've brutally violated the cruisers if they strayed too close.

However, the kill was never confirmed since the wreckage wasn't found.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-09-05 03:18am

A squadron of Lunar class cruisers IIRC pasted it with torpedoes, but that was becaise it was rather large and sluggish, not because it lacked torpedo ordnance of its own (which it did have.)

Itr was supposedly "destroyeD" in the Gothic war but it survived ot resurfce later during Abbadon's 13th Black Crusade. IIRC it repuitedly blew up when destroying one of the Imperium's planets (The debris caught it when weakened and it weas blassted apartt.)

I've never hear dof the PK using Slaan or Old One tech though.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-09-05 03:24am

Lances (depending on ship in question, calcs, and sourcees) can be anywhere from triple digit GT to single/double digit Petaton per volley, depending on sources. Weapoins batteries are individually less powerful but more numerous and more diverse, but if you can coordinate them right and hit with enough accuracy their damage ought to be comparable to lanes.

Torpedoes are gigton TT range depending on source at least, , but they don't need to match lancecs or weapons batteries because they seem to incorporate an ability to penetrate shields somehow. (note that shields are not ALWAYS penetrated, though..) The Brute force cyclonic torpedoes would probably be the high end of torpedo firepower.

Nova cannons are almost certainly petaton range both for the KE component of the round and the probable explosive capabiility.

Note about lances: There are at least 3 different kinds: Laser, plasma, and fusion (melta). Some sources (like the Blood Angels novels, ,Shadow point, etc.) Imply there might be particle beam lances as well.

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2007-09-05 09:29am

Connor MacLeod wrote: Note about lances: There are at least 3 different kinds: Laser, plasma, and fusion (melta). Some sources (like the Blood Angels novels, ,Shadow point, etc.) Imply there might be particle beam lances as well.
The Tau use ion cannons as lances and Demiurg have particle beam lances.
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Post by white_rabbit » 2007-09-05 09:45am

" Lance " has become a bit of a catchall term for a huge sustained beam weapon in 40k. As opposed to weapons batteries which don't generally fire for longer than seconds at most.

Laser and "thermal" lances (long range melta guns) and plasma lances have been described on a man portable scale in the Imperium and Eldar technological lexicon, and variously have been shown to be scaled up

The original "lance" concept developed for Battle Fleet Gothic Chaos and Imperial fleets, which are both from the same tech base were concieved as huge hybrid laser/particle beam weapons. "Concentrated solar flares" to quote Andy Chambers.
The Tau use ion cannons as lances
And Ion cannons are special because they "vapourize what they hit" :lol:
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor » 2007-09-05 11:56am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Lances (depending on ship in question, calcs, and sourcees) can be anywhere from triple digit GT to single/double digit Petaton per volley, depending on sources. Weapoins batteries are individually less powerful but more numerous and more diverse, but if you can coordinate them right and hit with enough accuracy their damage ought to be comparable to lanes.

Torpedoes are gigton TT range depending on source at least, , but they don't need to match lancecs or weapons batteries because they seem to incorporate an ability to penetrate shields somehow. (note that shields are not ALWAYS penetrated, though..) The Brute force cyclonic torpedoes would probably be the high end of torpedo firepower.

Nova cannons are almost certainly petaton range both for the KE component of the round and the probable explosive capabiility.

Note about lances: There are at least 3 different kinds: Laser, plasma, and fusion (melta). Some sources (like the Blood Angels novels, ,Shadow point, etc.) Imply there might be particle beam lances as well.
PetaTons? I hate to ask, since i have long ago forgotten the calcs, isn't that pretty close to some of the standard heavy turbolasers in Star Wars?
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-09-05 01:10pm

The Hexathedral appears to have some sort of atmosphere-retaining force shielding around its 'deck'. The artwork in Inferno! #8 shows a Devourer unloading troops onto a Hexathedral in orbit.

The entire Obvious Tactics story runs from Inferno! #1 to #16. There's a lot of good stuff in those magazines, that IIRC never made it into print elsewhere.
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Post by NecronLord » 2007-09-05 01:16pm

Lone_Prodigy wrote:Supposedly it uses ancient Slann technology
They're actually most likely artifacts created by the Old Ones, or the Eldar Gods. the power cores of the Blackstone Fortresses were certainly created by an Eldar Deity, they are the 'Eyes of the Witch' created by Morai-Heg and given to Vaul.
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Post by NecronLord » 2007-09-05 01:20pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:PetaTons? I hate to ask, since i have long ago forgotten the calcs, isn't that pretty close to some of the standard heavy turbolasers in Star Wars?
Yes. But they literally can't hit anything with them. As in, Nova Cannons never hit. They do their damage by proximity detonation.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-09-05 06:01pm

NecronLord wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:PetaTons? I hate to ask, since i have long ago forgotten the calcs, isn't that pretty close to some of the standard heavy turbolasers in Star Wars?
Yes. But they literally can't hit anything with them. As in, Nova Cannons never hit. They do their damage by proximity detonation.
I suspect if you got into beam weapons range with them you could - if they can hit with lance turrets, they should be able to do it with Nova cannon too. Its a near-c beam projectile.

However, given the fact its a fucking huge, fix-axis cannon, you have to turn the ship to actually aim it, which makes it use more limited in close in battles (Particularily since engines also need to be used in recoil damping.) You probably could only use it as a "direct hit" weapon against very massive targets, stationary or crippled targets, or when both fighting ships are engaging in high velocity (IE relatavistic) strafing attacks.

This doesn't factor in the possible use of some sort of guided projectile, either. (Yes, yes, I know, there's no evidence of them having such, but let's be serious here: this is a projectile that is FAR more massive than a torpedo or the smiller "weapons battery" missiles. They can cram guirancee systems into shotgun shells or auto pistol rounds or tank rounds, I don't see why they couldn't for a Nova cannon shell either. This is basically the same "The eldar evidently have forcefield defenses as well as holofields, but they never get applied to bigger ships in game" logic.)

Same goes for bombardment cannon, really.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-09-05 06:12pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: PetaTons? I hate to ask, since i have long ago forgotten the calcs, isn't that pretty close to some of the standard heavy turbolasers in Star Wars?
Yes. The fun/interesting part is that the descriptions of Nova cannon firings I have found is that htey seem to have short "recharge times", which also suggests their power generation (and thus the output of weapons) may be of similar magnitude.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-09-05 06:14pm

white_rabbit wrote:" Lance " has become a bit of a catchall term for a huge sustained beam weapon in 40k. As opposed to weapons batteries which don't generally fire for longer than seconds at most.
Lancese CAN fire for long times, but they don't neccesarily do that. They also seem to be capable of piercing/gutting attacks as well as the "slicing".
Laser and "thermal" lances (long range melta guns) and plasma lances have been described on a man portable scale in the Imperium and Eldar technological lexicon, and variously have been shown to be scaled up
Aren't those basically artillery or vehicle mounted weapons though (or titan mounted?)
The original "lance" concept developed for Battle Fleet Gothic Chaos and Imperial fleets, which are both from the same tech base were concieved as huge hybrid laser/particle beam weapons. "Concentrated solar flares" to quote Andy Chambers.
Where was that from?
And Ion cannons are special because they "vapourize what they hit" :lol:
So do IoM laser and plasma weapons :P

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