[40k] Relative Strengths

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[40k] Relative Strengths

Post by Lone_Prodigy » 2007-06-12 02:50am

So far I've been reading some of the novels in my spare time, but I'm not really too sure about the level of power creep between the various troops and vehicles (mostly of the Imperium).

For example:
How does a Marine compare to a Dreadnought? Could a Dreadnought reliably one-hit-kill the marine? What sort of weapons would the Marine need to use to punch through the Dreadnought's armor, a melta, a Lascannon, a krak missile launcher?

How do the same basic things (weapons, armor, overall durability) compare between the other intruments of the Imperium?
Is an average Dreadnought a match for a Leman Russ? A carnifex?
How many Lemans would be needed to take down a Land Raider?
Are the Superheavies (Baneblades and their ilk) on par with a Raider, or a step above?
How do the titans compare to the superheavies? Is a warhound a match for one? Could a sufficient number take down an Imperator? Could an Annihilator Thunderhawk defeat a Warlord?
And finally... do Ordinatus's and Imperators get annihilated by the smaller capital ships, or can they put up a fight if the ship is close enough (such as a Strike Cruiser, not a Battle Barge or Emperor)? Similarly, are bombers (such as Marauders and Starhawks) able to damage those larger ships, or are their void shields just too strong?

Sorry, but despite reading numerous short stories and a few novels, these basic things are rather unclear to me–I'm rather poor at judging such things.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2007-06-12 04:17am

I can answer a few of these, at least:
How does a Marine compare to a Dreadnought?
A Dreadnought is a veteran Marine interred inside what is essentially an even bigger set of armor (with a proportionate increase in firepower as well). A Dreadnought, generally speaking, is to a Marine as a Marine is to a Guardsman.
Could a Dreadnought reliably one-hit-kill the marine?
Easily. Excepting auxiliary weapons like storm bolters, all of a Dreadnought's ranged weapons are more than capable of turning a Space Marine to pulp. Even the "weakest" mount typically seen, the assault cannon, is an extremely potent anti-material weapon (think GAU-8 Avenger).

A Dreadnought's close combat options are arguably even more deadly if it gets close enough. A Marine would be so much silly putty in its hand.
What sort of weapons would the Marine need to use to punch through the Dreadnought's armor, a melta, a Lascannon, a krak missile launcher?
Any light anti-tank weapon is capable of doing some harm. Krak grenades, plasma weapons, krak missiles, meltaguns, lascannons, even assault cannons. At close range, you'll need a power fist, thunder hammer, etc. to do any appreciable damage.
Is an average Dreadnought a match for a Leman Russ?
This sort of thing really depends. It's apples and oranges here. A Dreadnought is a close-range assault platform. A Leman Russ is a main battle tank. On an open field during a sunny day with no cover or concealment and at long range, where tanks are king, the Dreadnought will be blown to pieces before it knows what hit it.

On the other hand, in a frenetic close-range urban engagement, the Dreadnought will likely be able to maneuver to point-blank range and literally rip the Russ apart.
How many Lemans would be needed to take down a Land Raider?
One. In theory. Apples and oranges again. It's like comparing an M1A2 Abrams with a (naval) destroyer. Two completely different battlefield roles and capabilities. The Russ is an MBT, the Land Raider a sort of all-purpose assault APC.
Are the Superheavies (Baneblades and their ilk) on par with a Raider, or a step above?
Though Land Raiders are supposedly pretty hardcore, a Baneblade would just absolutely annihilate it. Again, they fulfill different battlefield functions and are not directly comparable.
How do the titans compare to the superheavies?
Well, they're... giant mechs. Titans are largely terror weapons which are only superior due to using vastly greater technology and mounting more guns, thanks to being directly related to the Adeptus Mechanicus as opposed to being part of actual military formations.

There's a good array of Guard vehicles, notably superheavies like the Shadowsword which are Titan-killers. They lack the mass and therefore capacity for the huge array of weapons and void shields the Titans have, but they're perfectly capable of killing Titans.
And finally... do Ordinatus's and Imperators get annihilated by the smaller capital ships, or can they put up a fight if the ship is close enough (such as a Strike Cruiser, not a Battle Barge or Emperor)?
...What? How is a giant mech supposed to do anything against a ship in orbit which can bombard the Titan with complete impunity? Even strike cruisers have enough firepower to ruin anyone's day in a precision orbital attack.
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Post by Starglider » 2007-06-12 04:37am

As I recall the 'who can kill who' order is roughly like this; Squig < Gretchin < Termagaunt < Imperial Guard < Tau < Ork < Aspect Warrior < Genestealer < Necron < Space Marine < Tyranid < Terminator < Rhino < Necron Destroyer < Carnifex < Dreadnaught < Battlewagon < Leman Russ < Land Raider < Greater Demon < Monolith < Baneblade < Stompa < Warhound < Gargant < Reaver < Mega Gargant < Warlord < Emperor (Titan). But I'm too out of date on game mechanics to know the numeric equivalents.

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Post by Ford Prefect » 2007-06-12 04:44am

Lots of those can go both ways - a Necron warrior can as much kill a Space Marine as vice versa.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-12 04:59am

Gaius hit most of it on the head. I'll just add a few points:

While Gaius is right that a close in assault by a Dreadnought will be bad for the Russ (not neccesarily fatal) that is the key point. The Russ is doubtless faster and more mobile, and it almost certainly has better range as well as greater firepower (bigger shell than a krak missile or grenade.) It wouldn't survive go tge tlcose enough save a surprise. Though if it has a lascannon or melta attachment it can still hurt it even at range. (or if it has the right missiles.)

In theory a Land Raider and a 'Russ have comparable weaponry, but I'd say the Raider packing a pair of dual lascannons has an edge, and probably is a bit better armoured (its heavier.. and supposedly it IS a battle tank, not just an APC. But its also bigger)

I'd guess that the Russ has the edge in terms of range (especially indirect fire capability) due to some of the isnane stuff you can pack in gives a better advantage, as does the turret (it can take cover to minimize its profile, whereas the Raider has to virtually expose itself in order to fire, and can't indirect fire with a lascannon.)

Superheavies are many times more powerful than a 'Russ (a Baneblade can one shot any medium/regular tank, and it has two such guns with fucking huge shells) Some Superheavies carry titan-killing weapons, which gives them a non-negligible fraction of a titan's firepower.

Squads/companies of Tanks can, with luck, damage/kill a titan (although the attrition rate is horrendous.) The Cadians have done it (though it also required bypassing the shields.) That should tell you something about how much firepower 40K tanks carry. A couple Superheavies (Shadowswords or the like) will definitely fuck one over.)

Titans are as noted, ,terror weapons. They pack the heaviest weapons of most land ships aside from superheavies or Deathstrike platforms (they just pack more of it.) City levelling firepower in energy weapons, missiles, and projectile weapons. THey're also shielded, and are fucking huge, obvious targets (unlike a tank.)

And under no circusmtances can any capital ship match a titan or even a titan legion. In the Rennie BFG novels they flat out state that cruisers can shrug off the worst massed groups of titans can dish out and sstill annihilate them in one swoop.

In 13th Legion, cruisers carry poitn defense weapons that are bigger than titan weapons. Hell, Bombers and thunderhawks carry Titan-grade firepower all on their own (generally speaking a titan is roughly the size/power of a Navy fighter/bomber's own anti-fighter armaments, so ask yourself how many bombers are required to take down a ship. Though a bomber's warheads are probably much heavier than anythinga Titan can carry.)

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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2007-06-12 05:14am

In a Gaunt's Ghosts novel, they were able to murder a Chaos Dreadnaught by punching holes in its armor with a powersword. Then, because the Dreadnaught was in a pool, water seeped in and Guardsmen were able to boil the Dreadnaught by flamering the water pool (and the water that got into the Dread).
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Post by Azazal » 2007-06-12 12:41pm

Gaius, that was a perfectly worded response, bravo.
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Re: [40k] Relative Strengths

Post by fusion » 2007-06-12 03:43pm

Lone_Prodigy wrote:Could a sufficient number take down an Imperator?
Of course but that could be as much as many thousands - low million.
Why its hailfire cannon fires like a machine gun yet each shot is enough to wither a super heavy tank. The cannons on top of the four tower is equal to a titan killer's cannon. Also its plasma annihilator's opening can fit a house in it ie: 30 foot by 30 foot (10m by 10m) and can level a city in a shot (a bit vague but...) So in the end yes but requires silly amounts of tanks.

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Post by Vendetta » 2007-06-12 06:01pm

Connor MacLeod wrote: In theory a Land Raider and a 'Russ have comparable weaponry, but I'd say the Raider packing a pair of dual lascannons has an edge, and probably is a bit better armoured (its heavier.. and supposedly it IS a battle tank, not just an APC. But its also bigger)

I'd guess that the Russ has the edge in terms of range (especially indirect fire capability) due to some of the isnane stuff you can pack in gives a better advantage, as does the turret (it can take cover to minimize its profile, whereas the Raider has to virtually expose itself in order to fire, and can't indirect fire with a lascannon.)
If ranges in Epic tabletop are fuzzy indications of their relative performance, the Leman Russ Battlecannon has a distinct range advantage (75cm to 45cm), but if both were in range for all their weapons the two would be roughly evenly matched. (though the Leman Russ can cope with being flanked better, as it has a turret mount for it's main weapon)

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Post by Lone_Prodigy » 2007-06-12 08:23pm

Thanks a lot, you guys really clarified some of the things that have been confusing me for a while, especially with regards to the Leman Russ and the Land Raider.
Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:...What? How is a giant mech supposed to do anything against a ship in orbit which can bombard the Titan with complete impunity? Even strike cruisers have enough firepower to ruin anyone's day in a precision orbital attack.
I knew even the bigger titans were a long shot, but since Ordinatuses (Ordinatii?) carry fuck-off-colossal weapons I thought they might be able to damage a capital ship if it was close enough (and the ship didn't simply crush the Ordinatus like a bug).
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2007-06-12 09:05pm

Lone_Prodigy wrote: I knew even the bigger titans were a long shot, but since Ordinatuses (Ordinatii?) carry fuck-off-colossal weapons I thought they might be able to damage a capital ship if it was close enough (and the ship didn't simply crush the Ordinatus like a bug).
The void shields on a destroyer are capable of withstanding multigigaton volleys. Ordinatii are scary, but out of their league against even a small warship.
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Post by Azazal » 2007-06-12 09:16pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:
Lone_Prodigy wrote: I knew even the bigger titans were a long shot, but since Ordinatuses (Ordinatii?) carry fuck-off-colossal weapons I thought they might be able to damage a capital ship if it was close enough (and the ship didn't simply crush the Ordinatus like a bug).
The void shields on a destroyer are capable of withstanding multigigaton volleys. Ordinatii are scary, but out of their league against even a small warship.

Also, Ordinatii have a single massive weapon. Capital ships group several similar weapons to form a single battery, then have one to dozens of such batteries, depending on the ship's size. Think of it as comparing a single 16inch rail gun, WW2 era rail gun, to the total firepower from a battleship turret.
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Post by Lone_Prodigy » 2007-06-12 09:51pm

Ow, nasty. Also, is it true that there's some Titan variant "the size of a mountain" or is the ~80m Emperor about as tall as it gets?
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Post by Ford Prefect » 2007-06-12 10:00pm

Lone_Prodigy wrote:Ow, nasty. Also, is it true that there's some Titan variant "the size of a mountain" or is the ~80m Emperor about as tall as it gets?
To my knowledge there are no such weapons in the Imperial arsenal. The Ordinatii are their largest, with the plasma cannon Ordinatus having a bore so large that a Titan (I'm not sure if class was indicated) can walk inside.
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Post by fusion » 2007-06-12 11:20pm

Ford Prefect wrote:
Lone_Prodigy wrote:Ow, nasty. Also, is it true that there's some Titan variant "the size of a mountain" or is the ~80m Emperor about as tall as it gets?
To my knowledge there are no such weapons in the Imperial arsenal. The Ordinatii are their largest, with the plasma cannon Ordinatus having a bore so large that a Titan (I'm not sure if class was indicated) can walk inside.
I don't know, I thought the Emperor class was bigger than the Ordinatus as both can mount doomstrike missiles; however, it is only a fraction of the Warmonger's size while it is most of the Ordinatus' "body". So the emperor class is larger.

About the "size of a mountain": it is probably a hyperbole. If I was in a battle against a Emperor class I would probably say the same thing.... :D

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-06-13 02:00am

Soul Drinkers has some huge-ass macro-cannon ordinatus platform designed as a spaced-based platform (for some obscene reason, it comprised the sole armament of the AM ship carrying it.... but it had to be deployed on a separate platform to be used...) It was implied to be many hundreds or thousands of meters in size.

I also vaguely recall in Iron Hands that there was some super-Titan (maybe.) Dark ADeptus had one super-Chaos Titan or something too.

And there might have been some super-titan in Chaos Child, but again I don't want to go back and check that....

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Post by white_rabbit » 2007-06-13 04:23am

The largest number given for an Imperial titan thus far has been 140 meters in Horus Rising.

Unfortunately Graham Mcneil followed that up immediately afterwards, while describing the same damn titan, with 40 meters. Admittedly the Dies Irae was featured in STOI as a midget long before Horus Rising, but it still showed fucking horrendous continuity.
Soul Drinkers has some huge-ass macro-cannon ordinatus platform designed as a spaced-based platform (for some obscene reason, it comprised the sole armament of the AM ship carrying it.... but it had to be deployed on a separate platform to be used...) It was implied to be many hundreds or thousands of meters in size.
Ah, the Geryon orbital artillery platform. "as big as an island" whatever that is supposed to mean!

I think Khobotov was just being a typical Tech-junky, one semi-sentient supergun>>>>>> conventional weaponry in his mind, regardless of actual ease of use or capability.

Mind you, the ship did also have "rail driver cannons" and "magna lasers", as well as a fairly impressive electronic warfare suite.
I also vaguely recall in Iron Hands that there was some super-Titan (maybe.) Dark ADeptus had one super-Chaos Titan or something too.
Nah, the Iron Hands Titans were all "normal", the large titan was just an Imperator.

The Dark Adeptus Castigator bipedal weapons platform was a bloody disgrace, somehow managing to be twice as tall as a warhound, yet larger than any other titan, and having a gun bigger than a Hellstorm cannon, yet it fired idiotic screaming daemon beasties that were like wet farts.
And there might have been some super-titan in Chaos Child, but again I don't want to go back and check that...
Its just a fairly dextrous Imperator Titan.
n a Gaunt's Ghosts novel, they were able to murder a Chaos Dreadnaught by punching holes in its armor with a powersword. Then, because the Dreadnaught was in a pool, water seeped in and Guardsmen were able to boil the Dreadnaught by flamering the water pool (and the water that got into the Dread)
Thats not exactly out of order, superheating water and the amniotic sac/suspension fluid that the flesh rag of a Chaos marine is floating in probably would kill him.
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Post by Keevan_Colton » 2007-06-13 01:13pm

Well, the Land Raider is meant to have been used in squads for Titan hunting duty, which I think puts it a bit above the leman russ in the higher end fights, but down at the tactical level the leman russ is much better.
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Post by Lone_Prodigy » 2007-06-13 08:11pm

Thankfully, everything in this thread has made sense...
white_rabbit wrote:The Dark Adeptus Castigator bipedal weapons platform was a bloody disgrace, somehow managing to be twice as tall as a warhound, yet larger than any other titan, and having a gun bigger than a Hellstorm cannon, yet it fired idiotic screaming daemon beasties that were like wet farts.
...except for this. What the fuck, a gun that fires daemons? Are you joking? :lol:
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Post by Black Admiral » 2007-06-13 08:15pm

Lone_Prodigy wrote:Thankfully, everything in this thread has made sense...
white_rabbit wrote:The Dark Adeptus Castigator bipedal weapons platform was a bloody disgrace, somehow managing to be twice as tall as a warhound, yet larger than any other titan, and having a gun bigger than a Hellstorm cannon, yet it fired idiotic screaming daemon beasties that were like wet farts.
...except for this. What the fuck, a gun that fires daemons? Are you joking? :lol:
Most definitely not - the Castigator's weapons do, indeed, fire daemons.
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Post by Academia Nut » 2007-06-13 08:44pm

I'm of the opinion that it's time in the Warp or whatever happened to make an STC into a daemon left the Castigator deeply retarded. It explains how it got sucker punched so easily.

And I liked the damn book too, although the only one more retarded than the Castigator was the Chaos General. A man truly in the mold of Abbadon "Whipping Boy" Ezykle.
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Post by white_rabbit » 2007-06-14 04:03am

..except for this. What the fuck, a gun that fires daemons? Are you joking?
Its apparently a concept Ben Counter likes, he uses it in Souldrinker, Prince Ve'meth has a daemon bullet firing gun.

Unfortunately their performance isn't exactly thrilling, even taking into account the Grey Knights wandering around at the time.

I mean, yeah, it bashes a Warhound titan around a bit, but as the principle ranged weapon of an original Dark age design, it left a little to be desired!
And I liked the damn book too, although the only one more retarded than the Castigator was the Chaos General. A man truly in the mold of Abbadon "Whipping Boy" Ezykle.
Yeah, the walking incarnation of plot induced stupidity. Because hundreds of Chaos titans simply aren't worth having..
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2007-06-14 05:03am

white_rabbit wrote:
I mean, yeah, it bashes a Warhound titan around a bit, but as the principle ranged weapon of an original Dark age design, it left a little to be desired!
An unshielded Warhound no less, a machine that that is dead fucking meat if a humble Warlord class titan decides to slag them let alone a Dark Age tech super titan. It was really quite underwhelming.
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Post by Cykeisme » 2007-06-18 01:23am

Regarding the power sword punching holes in a Chaos Dreadnought..

How exactly do infantry-sized power melee weapons interact with heavy vehicle armor?

Do power weapons simply effortlessly cut through any armor? Isn't there a limit to the number of material bonds they can break per unit time, limited by the power output of its power supply?
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Post by Cykeisme » 2007-06-18 01:31am

Meh, sorry for the double post, didn't think of asking this earlier.

So Dawn of War is massively off in terms of unit durability/firepower? I understand that tabletop Warhammer itself uses an entirely different system from simple hitpoints (I'm not sure how WH works, actually), but basically DoW is nowhere close?
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