[WH40K] Imperial weapons numbers

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[WH40K] Imperial weapons numbers

Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-05-26 02:22pm

From Imperial Armour volume five - The Siege of Vraks;
page 18; Death Korps of Krieg Infantryman wrote: Lucius pattern, no. 98 lasgun ... standard power pack unit, operating in the 21 megathules range. This is a higher charge than many of the more common lasgun patterns, and causes the powerpack to drain more rapidly than other lasguns. The powerpack is good for 25 shots. This lasgun is a singe shot weapon, and the weapon's internal fast discharge generator is placed under extra stress by the larger charge, reducing its recharge rate and slowing the weapon's rate of fire whilst increasing maintenance time.

The weapon's barrel includes additional heatsink rings to dissipate the heat of the barrel, which infamously gets very hot during sustained firing.
So, if you get 25 21 megathules shots from a powerpack, you should get 27 shots from a 19 megathule range lasgun. Also implies that other pattern lasguns are semi- or full auto.
page 42; Vraksian Renegade Militiaman wrote: This particular autogun is an Agrpinaa pattern, type III. It fires a long .825 calibre round, on either single shot, semi-automatic and fully automatic, with a cyclic rate of fire of 650 rounds per minute with a muzzle velocity of 820 metres per second. It takes both a 20 and a 30 round box magazine
Presumably 8.25mm calibre? The same style autogun is manufactured on Necromunda, used by House Escher, and latterly by Houses Orlock and Goliath.
page 88; Death Korps of Krieg Grenadier wrote: type XIV lasgun (heavy) ... firing in the 28 megathule range ...
The weapon includes an advanced sight ... incorporating x4 magnification and low-light infra-scope... The careful calibrations required to keep the sight functioning mean that they are often disabled on the field.
page 116; Heavy Artillery wrote: The Earthshaker is the Imperial Guard's standard artillery piece. It is a 132mm calibre weapon, capable of firing a 38kg shell over 15 kms at a velocity of 814mps... It uses its standard five power charges, but this can be increased with the addition of charges six and seven.
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Post by Tasoth » 2007-05-26 02:51pm

Is the .835 calibre using the current meaning of calibre? Because it if is, a round slightly over 4/5s of an inch is going to have some ridiculous kick...
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-05-26 02:56pm

I doubt it; A bolter round is, apparently, only a .75 calibre or so.
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-05-26 02:57pm

Also, there's no way you'd get 30 of those rounds in that mag :) even if they're caseless.
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Re: [WH40K] Imperial weapons numbers

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-05-27 02:44am

andrewgpaul wrote:From Imperial Armour volume five - The Siege of Vraks;
page 18; Death Korps of Krieg Infantryman wrote: Lucius pattern, no. 98 lasgun ... standard power pack unit, operating in the 21 megathules range. This is a higher charge than many of the more common lasgun patterns, and causes the powerpack to drain more rapidly than other lasguns. The powerpack is good for 25 shots. This lasgun is a singe shot weapon, and the weapon's internal fast discharge generator is placed under extra stress by the larger charge, reducing its recharge rate and slowing the weapon's rate of fire whilst increasing maintenance time.

The weapon's barrel includes additional heatsink rings to dissipate the heat of the barrel, which infamously gets very hot during sustained firing.
2 megathule ain't going to be THAT dramatic a difference in firepower, so this kinda just screws the idea that "megathule" means anything. (Forgeworld seems to have a history of just making stats up)

What it DOES seem to imply (which is implied in other novels, but its a further confirmation) is that lasgun modesl can vary in power accordign to design - some are alot more powerful than others, which can help explain discrepancies in some weapons.

This particular weapon, I would imagine, is probably designed along the lines of a "hotshot" lasgun (Hot-shotted long-las rifles in the uplifting primer have a ~20 shot capacity) - this is further confirmed by the "increased maintenance" bit. Ironically that WOULD imply a ~20 MJ "per shot" capacity or so, but I think that's coincidental.

This isn't the most insane "lasgun output" implied, though: the hot-shotted long las in later Ghosts novels will drain a hotshot pack in a SINGLE shot - that implies obscene levels of firepower (and probably would wreck most ordinary lasguns after only a few shots.)
So, if you get 25 21 megathules shots from a powerpack, you should get 27 shots from a 19 megathule range lasgun. Also implies that other pattern lasguns are semi- or full auto.
Most powerpacks are good for 40-60 shots, so unless 19 MT refers to a higher setting, that won't make a great deal of sense.

And its a safe bet that other weapons have faster fire-settings, because full auto is mentioned in alot of other sourcees.
page 42; Vraksian Renegade Militiaman wrote: This particular autogun is an Agrpinaa pattern, type III. It fires a long .825 calibre round, on either single shot, semi-automatic and fully automatic, with a cyclic rate of fire of 650 rounds per minute with a muzzle velocity of 820 metres per second. It takes both a 20 and a 30 round box magazine
Presumably 8.25mm calibre? The same style autogun is manufactured on Necromunda, used by House Escher, and latterly by Houses Orlock and Goliath.
well making some extrapolations of the rounds dimensions from its diameter and assumptions about composition, that thing would probably be equivalent to a M2 browning machine gun. Not something your standard guardsman could wield (only one of those uber-bulky ones like Bragg or Jurgen.) In trutht hat thing should probably be more of a "stubber" rather than an autogun (stubbers go up to 25mm)

Of course, depending on the composition of the round and how its shaped (and what its composed of.) it could be alot lighter. The large diameter would give it the ability to make a BIG hole in a target.
page 88; Death Korps of Krieg Grenadier wrote: type XIV lasgun (heavy) ... firing in the 28 megathule range ...
The weapon includes an advanced sight ... incorporating x4 magnification and low-light infra-scope... The careful calibrations required to keep the sight functioning mean that they are often disabled on the field.
I don't see what's so extraordinary about that it would be hard to calibrate. The 3rd edition rules mentioned infra-scopes/mono sights as being a potential standard on Guard weapons, and even long-las seem to use something better without problems. Hell there was an "assault las" with a fairly sophisticated scope in "13th Legion" and it wasn't particularily temperamental. Hell, a targeter is probably more complex than the scope above.
page 116; Heavy Artillery wrote: The Earthshaker is the Imperial Guard's standard artillery piece. It is a 132mm calibre weapon, capable of firing a 38kg shell over 15 kms at a velocity of 814mps... It uses its standard five power charges, but this can be increased with the addition of charges six and seven.
Basically a reiteration of earlier IA editions descriptions of the weapon. Performance-wise, it's not as godo as implied in other cases (other sources have given Basilisks ranges of tens of km - up to 100+ km in fact) and its perforamnce isnt as good as a 155mm howitzer (47 kg projectile at ~940 m/s for a Crusader 155mm) but there ARE a number of Earthshaker and Basilisk variants, some with other capabilites (higher ROF, some are bigger/more powerful, etc.) hell, the earlier IA stuff had it at 125mm and a MV of 425 m/s...

Russes, of course, have a much bigger/powerful cannon.. ironically (of course hte Basilisk is a Chimaera chassis..)

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-05-27 02:45am

andrewgpaul wrote:Also, there's no way you'd get 30 of those rounds in that mag :) even if they're caseless.
Depends on what sort of clip you're using. The models are generally not the best to go by for 100% accuracy under many cases.

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Post by Adrian Laguna » 2007-05-27 03:26am

andrewgpaul wrote:Also, there's no way you'd get 30 of those rounds in that mag :) even if they're caseless.
This is a life-size Space Marine, with a gun that big I'm surprised it's not a 60-round mag.

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Post by Darwin » 2007-05-28 06:49am

Adrian Laguna wrote: This is a life-size Space Marine, with a gun that big I'm surprised it's not a 60-round mag.
Actually he looks a little small. Those guys are supposed to be 7-foot plus OUTSIDE their power armor.

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Post by Lost Soal » 2007-05-28 06:53am

This isn't the most insane "lasgun output" implied, though: the hot-shotted long las in later Ghosts novels will drain a hotshot pack in a SINGLE shot - that implies obscene levels of firepower (and probably would wreck most ordinary lasguns after only a few shots.)
Larkin does say that even with a strengthened barrel it has to be replaced after ~10 shots
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Post by Stormbringer » 2007-05-28 02:56pm

I don't see what's so extraordinary about that it would be hard to calibrate. The 3rd edition rules mentioned infra-scopes/mono sights as being a potential standard on Guard weapons, and even long-las seem to use something better without problems. Hell there was an "assault las" with a fairly sophisticated scope in "13th Legion" and it wasn't particularily temperamental. Hell, a targeter is probably more complex than the scope above.
It might just be a poor design. Not all scopes after all are created equal.
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-05-28 05:11pm

Tasoth wrote:Is the .835 calibre using the current meaning of calibre? Because it if is, a round slightly over 4/5s of an inch is going to have some ridiculous kick...
Nah, it's 8.25 calibre, not .825. It can't be an 8.25" round; it's a rifle, not a naval gun :)
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Post by JonathanMS » 2007-05-30 01:38am

Oh. I thought he meant .825 cal., like in the .50 cal. HMGs, which would mean .825 divided by .04 equals 20.625mm.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-05-30 02:16am

andrewgpaul wrote:
Tasoth wrote:Is the .835 calibre using the current meaning of calibre? Because it if is, a round slightly over 4/5s of an inch is going to have some ridiculous kick...
Nah, it's 8.25 calibre, not .825. It can't be an 8.25" round; it's a rifle, not a naval gun :)
then it would express such in "mm", not decimal. They probably did mean 20mm round or (as usual) just made up numbers without thinking of context.

And yes, the kcik will be poetnially ridiculous if we compare it to other "high-diameter" rounds (which means an AMR) - I get 50-100 grams.

technically though there ARE large-diameter rounds that aren't nearly that massive (there's a 15mm round for the STeyr IWS that weighs around 20 grams) so you might be able to fudge it depending on how its designed and for what kind of target. Maybe the round is filled with incendiary or explosive compounds, or its a "expanding/exploding" round (which might be less massive than other rounds.) - a large-diameter like that would facilitate some nasty wounding even with the mass/velocity issue aside.

Alternately its just as I said, and its designed for really strong/beefy Guardsman to employ in general, or to be used from a fixed position. It is worth noting that there is evidence that your "average" IoM human is substantially bigger/stronger than a "real life" human, anyhow.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-05-30 02:18am

Lost Soal wrote:
This isn't the most insane "lasgun output" implied, though: the hot-shotted long las in later Ghosts novels will drain a hotshot pack in a SINGLE shot - that implies obscene levels of firepower (and probably would wreck most ordinary lasguns after only a few shots.)
Larkin does say that even with a strengthened barrel it has to be replaced after ~10 shots
Twenty shots IIRC from Ghostmakre (Isn't that where he's talking to that "angel?")

That's the barrel though, not the power pack. Early Ghosts novels had the snipers like Larkin getting more than one shot from a hotshot pack (such as when he was sniping the Space marine, but I also believe the Angel example qualifies too.)

But the insane firepower that "draining the pack in a single shot" implies would probably cut that down even more. I mean think about it, you can usually expect a handful of MJ per shot in a "standard" power pack so expecting a single pack to hold around 100 MJ is not unreasonable. A "single use" hotshot pack should be around that in output. That kind of firepower is probably equal to what the probable sustained output on a Hellgun is :D (and equivalent to an elephant gun in rifle/ballistics terms, if not a RPG :P )

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-05-30 02:20am

i hear the IA5 entry also has a Hellgun description, could you post the text/stats for that too?

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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-05-30 01:24pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
andrewgpaul wrote:
Tasoth wrote:Is the .835 calibre using the current meaning of calibre? Because it if is, a round slightly over 4/5s of an inch is going to have some ridiculous kick...
Nah, it's 8.25 calibre, not .825. It can't be an 8.25" round; it's a rifle, not a naval gun :)
then it would express such in "mm", not decimal. They probably did mean 20mm round or (as usual) just made up numbers without thinking of context.
Could be, but it's the only way the number makes any sort of sense. Are you seriousl suggesting they meant for an infantry rifle to have a 205mm round? :) The book states "the autogun is comparable in effectiveness to a lasgun", which is unlikely for a weapon with a larger bore than an Earthshaker cannon. Besides, it wouldn't be the first time Forgeworld missed out a word in a publication :)

Connor, I did; the bit about the Grenadier. It's just that the Death Korps call it a "tyoe XIV lasgun (heavy)" :). A bit I didn't quote is that the backpack powerpack holds 200 shots. The thicker barrel is a coolant system, and like the Covenant plasma rifle, if it overheats, it'll cut out. It has a larger muzzle flash than a standard lasgun. Also, the troops themselves would rather have the lighter and more easily maintained ;asgun rather than the Hellgun, but regs is regs :)
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Post by white_rabbit » 2007-05-30 02:41pm

Andrewgpaul, does your copy say .825 or 8.25 calibre, or was it just a typo in your post ?

My copy says 8.25 calibre, for better or worse.

The autogun description also mentions the "grip" on this pattern is also a heavy weight designed to keep the weapons barrel down, as the kick is monstrous on full auto fire. The round is also described as a "long 8.25 calibre" round.
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-05-30 05:52pm

Yes, mine also says "8.25 calibre". I was wondering where people were getting a .825 from, and now I see it's because I'm an idiot. Unconscious typo, I'm afraid. I did get it right in all my subsequent posts, and I apologise for the confusion.

While I'm here, what is that in your sig image, about to molest that girl? Is it just a hairy pervert, or something worse?
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Post by white_rabbit » 2007-05-30 06:48pm

andrewgpaul wrote:Yes, mine also says "8.25 calibre". I was wondering where people were getting a .825 from, and now I see it's because I'm an idiot. Unconscious typo, I'm afraid. I did get it right in all my subsequent posts, and I apologise for the confusion.

While I'm here, what is that in your sig image, about to molest that girl? Is it just a hairy pervert, or something worse?
Its from a chick tract, I think its part of one of the gay bashing ones, or one that justifies some inane crap on the part of god.

I thought the image appropriate for some versus debates over on SB, and Thanatos over there came up with the wording :lol:
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Post by Falkenhayn » 2007-05-30 07:27pm

white_rabbit wrote:
andrewgpaul wrote:Yes, mine also says "8.25 calibre". I was wondering where people were getting a .825 from, and now I see it's because I'm an idiot. Unconscious typo, I'm afraid. I did get it right in all my subsequent posts, and I apologise for the confusion.

While I'm here, what is that in your sig image, about to molest that girl? Is it just a hairy pervert, or something worse?
Its from a chick tract, I think its part of one of the gay bashing ones, or one that justifies some inane crap on the part of god.

I thought the image appropriate for some versus debates over on SB, and Thanatos over there came up with the wording :lol:
40k vs Star Trek comes to mind. Wasn't that the originator?

Do we know what they are measuring calibre against? I know Connor did calcs for 1 MJ shotguns, and what the Ghosts know as a "30 Cal" reduces people to viscera and random appendages.

I doubt it would be tmilimeters, as something smaller than a Beretta wouldn't produce that level of recoil, unless I'm completely off base.

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Post by Darwin » 2007-05-30 09:54pm

andrewgpaul wrote:Yes, mine also says "8.25 calibre". I was wondering where people were getting a .825 from, and now I see it's because I'm an idiot. Unconscious typo, I'm afraid. I did get it right in all my subsequent posts, and I apologise for the confusion.

I just chalk it up to poor writer knowledge, and them pulling a pretty number out of their ass. I'm almost sure the intent was "8.25mm calibre", but most people, including RPG writers, aren't gungeek enough to know that 'calibre' iimplies imperial measurements unless otherwise stated. As others said earlier, 8.25 calibre is 210mm, more suited for warships than handheld firearms. .825 calibre is bigger even than the .75 calibre bolters, and pretty nonsensical for an autogun.

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Post by Steel » 2007-05-31 05:00am

Falkenhayn wrote: I doubt it would be tmilimeters, as something smaller than a Beretta wouldn't produce that level of recoil, unless I'm completely off base.
Yep completely off base. Consider that an Ak-47 is 7.62mm while a beretta is 9.00mm... so which of these has larger recoil?

You cant judge things based soley on the width of the bullet, in this example the beretta round is 9x19mm and the rifle round is 7.62x39 or 51 or something but anyway its much much larger in overall size and quantity of propellant. Also judging from the size of the magazine on the model the rounds are pretty long, much longer than modern rounds, so presumably with potentially enhanced propellant an even bigger kick.

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Post by Darwin » 2007-05-31 07:30am

Steel wrote: judging from the size of the magazine on the model the rounds are pretty long,
take with a few standard quantities of salt. 28mm mini heroic scale is notoriously inaccurate as far as weapon scaling goes. I'd take the illustrations as a more reliable authority here.

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Post by Shadowtraveler » 2007-05-31 07:59am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Twenty shots IIRC from Ghostmakre (Isn't that where he's talking to that "angel?")
Right. It's also the one that mentions integrated optics on the lasgun pattern the Tanith use.

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Post by Lost Soal » 2007-05-31 12:57pm

Shadowtraveler wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Twenty shots IIRC from Ghostmakre (Isn't that where he's talking to that "angel?")
Right. It's also the one that mentions integrated optics on the lasgun pattern the Tanith use.
With the slight previso that, I think, Larkin uses his own non-standard scope. He certainly tinkers with it at the least as he's shown re-calibrating it at the beginning of Necropolis
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