Draka vs TBO America

[hongi]

The Domination in 1998 face off against nuke-friendly America in the year 1998. At the exact moment the final war on Earth is taking place, everyone in the Domination is transported over to the TBO-verse in exactly the same position in terms of land and geography. For example, a Draka citizen in Africa is still in Africa, a Draka spy in California is still in TBO California.

The same goes for TBOers. The TBO Chinese have all been transported to the Draka-China and the same for all Draka-held territories.

The Draka still have the virus in their possession, but no TBO person is infected yet (not enough time).

I haven't read the book where the Draka and the Alliance fight it out, but I'm assuming that it was a conventional war scenario along with the superweapons. So when the replacement happens, all ships and missiles and planes that were about to drop weapons find themselves over TBO America or other allied nations. TBO America goes WTF we're getting invaded and we have war.

1st scenario.

Without nukes, without space-held assets the Domination and America slug it out.

Second scenario:

With nukes. Still no space weapons.

3rd scenario:

Space weapons and nukes allowed.

Who wins?

[Big Orange]

What is the TBO-verse exactly? I'm fairly familiar with the Domination of the Drakia, but not with this TBO faction.

[Ace Pace]

What is the TBO-verse exactly? I'm fairly familiar with the Domination of the Drakia, but not with this TBO faction.

Your lack of knowledge makes shep cry.

TBO verse is an alternate history, point of divergence 1940, Lord Halifax takes over britan and surrenders to the Germans.

[Big Orange]

Thanks for the link and sorry for my ignorance, Ace Pace. I like fanfiction for the Draka as well, with the Domination having slightly toned down military power, more bad luck and getting defeated in the long run.

[Beowulf]

1st scenario is impossible. TBO America's defense largely centers itself around the usage of nuclear armed bombers to obliterate anyone who tries to make a big war.

[Ace Pace]

In second and third scenario, I'd give it to the TBOverse U.S.

300-B70s make a compelling argument(circa ROTV).

[Beowulf]

In second and third scenario, I'd give it to the TBOverse U.S.

300-B70s make a compelling argument(circa ROTV).

Yeah, but the OP says it's 1998. There should be at least 5 times that many B-70s (given the numbers in the 1986 OOB). Also, from the listing of bombers, TBO America also has suborbital bombers at that point (B-103 Aurora, et al).

[Imperial Overlord]

I don't know the TBO verse, but by 1998 the Draka are a full on ridiculus sci-fi power. Genetically engineered baboon shocktroops, the first generation of genetically engineered super Draka serving in their military, holdings throughout the solar system including a large colony on Mars, orbital weapon platforms with the abilities to kill missiles and submarines, and full on space navy.

Unless the TBO verse features full on Draka scale tech wank, the Draka will win scenario three just based on the fact that no matter what happens on Earth they will survive on Mars and their navy can lay waste to Earth.

[Ace Pace]

If Draka is that wanked, then I think TBO verse would lose thanks to not exactly being spacefaring at that point.

We could always invoke TBO verse circa 2000+ Intersteller highway timespan.

[Imperial Overlord]

If Draka is that wanked, then I think TBO verse would lose thanks to not exactly being spacefaring at that point.

We could always invoke TBO verse circa 2000+ Intersteller highway timespan.

They are. Post World War 2 tech progress in the Draka verse is just unbelievable wank. At this point the Americans have this kind of shit as well, developed asteroid colonies, and an interstellar colony ship with functional suspended animation tech (stolen from the Draka) and an antimatter drive.

[MKSheppard]

The Draka get slapped because unlike the morons in the Drakaverse, TBOverse America has balls and is willing to fight. All of Africa goes up in mushroom clouds, every major city in Europe is hit, etc etc. The Draka suffer something like 80-90% of citizens killed, and in the end, they're the ones running to Alpha Centauri, not New America.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Draka get slapped because unlike the morons in the Drakaverse, TBOverse America has balls and is willing to fight. All of Africa goes up in mushroom clouds, every major city in Europe is hit, etc etc. The Draka suffer something like 80-90% of citizens killed, and in the end, they're the ones running to Alpha Centauri, not New America.

Except the Draka wank tech orbital weapon platforms shoot down your precious bomber fleets and ICBMs and then rain nuclear hell on America. Al the silliness of the Draka series doesn't change the fact they are vastly more powerful than any modern nation because of wanked tech development. The Draka own the high ground and have plenty of nukes, rail guns, and beam weapons up there. They have ridiculously fast fighters in the sixties. They win. That the their tech development is completely unrealistic doesn't change that.

[TimothyC]

Except the Draka wank tech orbital weapon platforms shoot down your precious bomber fleets and ICBMs and then rain nuclear hell on America.

No ICBMs (or SLBMs) for TBOverse America. The US does have functional ABM systems, and space based weapons platforms though.

Al the silliness of the Draka series doesn't change the fact they are vastly more powerful than any modern nation because of wanked tech development. The Draka own the high ground and have plenty of nukes, rail guns, and beam weapons up there. They have ridiculously fast fighters in the sixties.

How fast? In Crusade (set in 1966) the US had F-108 and F9U fighters, that both reached Mach 3+.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Draka have had a space fleet since the 60s and can take out a ballistic missile sub from orbit with laser. And then theres the whole self sustaining colony on Mars thing.

Fastest speed directly mentioned on an atmospheric fighter was Mach 4.

[MKSheppard]

Fastest speed directly mentioned on an atmospheric fighter was Mach 4.

By the 1990s, the TBOverse is hitting well beyond that; top speed for the F10U Crusader II is Mach 7 at beyond 125,000 feet.

[SirNitram]

If the Draka have orbit-to-ground weapons, TBO-America is simply assraped, sans lube, in the third. Their vast SAC is simply annihilated from orbit.

[MKSheppard]

If the Draka have orbit-to-ground weapons, TBO-America is simply assraped, sans lube, in the third. Their vast SAC is simply annihilated from orbit.

Except SAC by 1998 isn't Strategic Air Command, but Space Administration Command, even though everybody still calls it Strategic Air Command.

They operate orbital bombers in a quite sizeable quantity; and by 1998 would probably be well along in establishing the MOWS-20 series; a series of space stations even bigger than MOWS-1, which could carry:

4 x Orbital Bombers in a Hangar Bay
128 x Cells for Missiles (Basically US Navy AEGIS but in orbit).
Nuclear Power to power the sensors (added by 1988 or 89).

The MOWS-1 modules are 21.5 ft in diameter and 58 ft long. MOWS-20 is 35 ft in diameter, and nearly 160 feet long. That's a lot of capacity.

Not to mention that TBO America has quite a lot of surface to orbit weapons in addition to her MOWS series.

The NIKE missile sites were never decommissioned unlike in @, and in 1988 or so, TBO US has 335 batteries, with 12 launchers each (average historical NIKE sites had only four launchers). Each site; if it has the standard 3 magazine layout, has about 78~ missiles stowed.

This means that at any time, TBO America has:

4,020 Nuclear-armed missiles on the launchers, ready to fire.
25,116 Nuclear-armed missiles in the magazines.

For a total of 29,136 weapons available that can intercept any kind of orbit to surface weapons the Draka throw at them.

BTW, don't let the NIKE designator of these sites fool you, these are basically the much more evolved descendants like SPRINT and SPARTAN, but using the Nike-xxxx designator. These SAMs have been evolving continually to keep up with SAC's bomber force.

To give you an idea of how powerful a missile you'd need to get a 50% probability of a kill on a B-70; you would need a missile that has these performance levels:

Mach 9 Speed
250+ Mile Range
Ceiling in excess of 200,000 feet (37.87 miles)

A SAM that can give a B-70 a reasonably hard time, is going to have such an excess performance level that it can be used as an anti-reentry vehicle weapon. It won't be able to intercept things in orbit though; that would be reserved for the ZEUS missiles that would be at each missile site.

[Chris OFarrell]

fap fap fap fap fap

[MKSheppard]

fap fap fap fap fap

To what? Do I have to point out that in the TBOverse, the US never retired the Saturns like we did, and so as such, we actually retained a heavy lift capability to get all this up?

[Setzer]

Considering the Draka's development, calling TBOverse USA wank is simply incorrect. If we had made the same options the TBOverse made, it's quite possible that we'd have something like this.

[SirNitram]

If the Draka have orbit-to-ground weapons, TBO-America is simply assraped, sans lube, in the third. Their vast SAC is simply annihilated from orbit.

<Blah blah blah>

So once they know the Draka weapon systems are going to open up, they'll start scrambling. Tell me: How much use are any of those going to be when they return home to find the Draka weapons fire has already destroyed their runways and facilities?

It's always cheaper to throw down than fly up. Also much faster.

The Draka are far more advanced than simple spaceplane bombers with missiles. They will fire first, because they are already in position. SAC will have to get up to the position where they can fire to even pretend this is a fight.

[MKSheppard]

Tell me: How much use are any of those going to be when they return home to find the Draka weapons fire has already destroyed their runways and facilities?

Doesn't matter. Not as long as TBO US has this.



Ride of the Valkyries - One, describing an emergency deployment and bombing up, using the Curtis E. LeMay interstate System

This is all based on real proposals and equipment.

Ground Support Equipment for a B-70
Alert Start Pod for a B-70

It's always cheaper to throw down than fly up. Also much faster.

Uhm, you are aware that by the 1990s, the US has developed and deployed into service HIBEX based missiles?

HIBEX was designed to intercept Re-entry vehicles travelling at 3 kilometers a second, at altitudes of less than 6,100 meters (20,000 feet). IOW, within only 2 seconds of initation. Acceleration was 400 Gs. By the 1990s, this is going to be standard equipment at the USA's NIKE sites as a last ditch system to intercept leakers which make it past the other systems.

The Draka are far more advanced than simple spaceplane bombers with missiles.

Actually, TBOverse is quite a bit more advanced really. The Draka have to rely on Orion propulsion for virtually all of their ships, which is essentially, a 1950s solution to spaceflight issues. The TBOverse by the 1990s, has essentially begun mass producing single stage to orbit systems.

They will fire first, because they are already in position.

So you're saying that the Draka will instantly recognize that the TBOverse US is a mortal threat to them and attack right at once within seconds of them appearing in Africa on the TBO earth?

SAC will have to get up to the position where they can fire to even pretend this is a fight.

Except SAC is already in position, with the MOWS-20 series of weapons stations in geoschrynous orbit around the Earth, and a number of B-100 Dynasoars in orbit, or docked to the various MOLs/MOWS. Not to mention there will be a couple of YB-101A Robos floating around, which are capable of SSTO.

Interestingly enough; the Draka simply won't be able to intercept quite a few of SAC's bombers; because in 1998, the B-103 Auroa enters service with SAC; it's a very advanced development of the basic B-70 design using turboscramjets and capable of around Mach 5 at 150,000 feet. Given that the fastest atmospheric fighter in the Drakaverse is only capable of Mach 4 or so...

[SirNitram]

Tell me: How much use are any of those going to be when they return home to find the Draka weapons fire has already destroyed their runways and facilities?

Doesn't matter. Not as long as TBO US has this.

The highways let them land and take off. That's nice. Fuel, bombs, spare parts?

It's always cheaper to throw down than fly up. Also much faster.

Uhm, you are aware that by the 1990s, the US has developed and deployed into service HIBEX based missiles?

HIBEX was designed to intercept Re-entry vehicles travelling at 3 kilometers a second, at altitudes of less than 6,100 meters (20,000 feet). IOW, within only 2 seconds of initation. Acceleration was 400 Gs. By the 1990s, this is going to be standard equipment at the USA's NIKE sites as a last ditch system to intercept leakers which make it past the other systems.

How many are there? Or are we simply going to get 'There's enough!' as an answer?

Oh yea. What's this gonna do about beam weapons? Jack and shit.

The Draka are far more advanced than simple spaceplane bombers with missiles.

Actually, TBOverse is quite a bit more advanced really. The Draka have to rely on Orion propulsion for virtually all of their ships, which is essentially, a 1950s solution to spaceflight issues. The TBOverse by the 1990s, has essentially begun mass producing single stage to orbit systems.

And the Draka have superbiotech and a self sustaining offworld colony, to say nothing of asteroid facilities.

Yes, the Draka are more advanced.

They will fire first, because they are already in position.

So you're saying that the Draka will instantly recognize that the TBOverse US is a mortal threat to them and attack right at once within seconds of them appearing in Africa on the TBO earth?

I'm saying the ravenously aggressive, psychopathically expansionist superpower that the Draka are will take one look at the cripple that replaced the age-old enemy they formerly had and gut it immediately. Their real opponent was so spread out there was no chance to eliminate them. TBO-USA? Not quite the same problem.

It's all about reaction time. Orbital beam weapons will be firing even if the TBO-USA's SAC starts sorties first.

SAC will have to get up to the position where they can fire to even pretend this is a fight.

Except SAC is already in position, with the MOWS-20 series of weapons stations in geoschrynous orbit around the Earth, and a number of B-100 Dynasoars in orbit, or docked to the various MOLs/MOWS. Not to mention there will be a couple of YB-101A Robos floating around, which are capable of SSTO.

The capabilities of these MOWS-20's?

Interestingly enough; the Draka simply won't be able to intercept quite a few of SAC's bombers; because in 1998, the B-103 Auroa enters service with SAC; it's a very advanced development of the basic B-70 design using turboscramjets and capable of around Mach 5 at 150,000 feet. Given that the fastest atmospheric fighter in the Drakaverse is only capable of Mach 4 or so...

Interception is not what I postulated: I postulated that the Draka would immediately open up on the TBO-USA's SAC infrastructure at commencement of hostilities. Due to their beam weapons and superior space presense, they will cripple the SAC even as their own space force is crippled. I suspect the Stone Dogs virus will also be utilized against the TBO-USA civilians, but the likely outcome is two nations flattened; one by nukes, one by orbital kinetics and beams.

[MKSheppard]

The highways let them land and take off. That's nice. Fuel, bombs, spare parts?

All contained within the convoys of vehicles which disperse to alternate landing sites during a crisis; much like how in OTL, SAC's bombers deployed to major international airports during the cuban missile crisis.

How many are there? Or are we simply going to get 'There's enough!' as an answer?

Considering that the TBOverse US has these things deployed around ever major and minor city..........

Oh yea. What's this gonna do about beam weapons? Jack and shit

and

And the Draka have superbiotech and a self sustaining offworld colony, to say nothing of asteroid facilities.

Yes, the Draka are more advanced.

No they're not.

Drakian computers do not have software. Everything is Hardware.

"Software — what they called compinstruction sets, or instruction sets — was "burned in" to central core units, embedding the program.

The central cores were generally sealed, with their own internal memories; an interfacer unit translated data from the external memory storage for the central unit to manipulate."

Everything the draka have for their military was designed to defeat the Alliance for Democracy's stuff, not TBOverse America. They can't reprogram their computers to take into account a lot of factors, or to react to TBO Electronic Warfare from RB-58Gs.

I'm saying the ravenously aggressive, psychopathically expansionist superpower that the Draka are will take one look at the cripple that replaced the age-old enemy they formerly had and gut it immediately. Their real opponent was so spread out there was no chance to eliminate them. TBO-USA? Not quite the same problem.

Uhm. Stirling always always keeps saying the Draka are cool, calm customers who always deliberate over the actions to do and do things slowly deliberately. Both sides in this equation, the rest of the TBOverse, and the Draka will know NOTHING about each other. The Draka have no idea who these people are, all the target packages they hardwired into their computers is invalid.

It's all about reaction time. Orbital beam weapons will be firing even if the TBO-USA's SAC starts sorties first.

Can the Draka reprogram the orbital beam weapons fast enough to make a difference? Also, the orbital beam weapons can be hit and intercepted by SAC's weaponry.

The capabilities of these MOWS-20's?

Not stated, although they are quite a LOT bigger than MOWS-1 which already has room for 4 x Orbital bombers and 128 missiles plus AEGIS.

Interception is not what I postulated: I postulated that the Draka would immediately open up on the TBO-USA's SAC infrastructure at commencement of hostilities.

Too bad SAC would have dispersed to the highways at the first inkling of hostilities.

Due to their beam weapons and superior space presense, they will cripple the SAC even as their own space force is crippled. I suspect the Stone Dogs virus will also be utilized against the TBO-USA civilians, but the likely outcome is two nations flattened; one by nukes, one by orbital kinetics and beams.

Nah. This would be like the Desert Storm strikes; we'd take them apart so fast the most the USA's population would see of the war would be green-screen images of nuclear devices taking out cities on the evening news.

Our bombers would be nearly uninterceptable, because our ECM could be fine-tuned and reprogrammed during our operations against the Draka to jam their tracking systems, fire control radars, SAMs, etc, while the Drakian systems have to be completely replaced in order to operate at maximum efficiency against TBOverse radars, etc.

[SirNitram]

I had to stop and go get confirmation, but yes, Draka computers can't be reprogrammed.

Fucking pathetic!

On this alone, they'll probably get curbstomped, because it means their meaningful reaction time to such a change is waaaaay too fucking slow.

As to Stirling's comments? Author's Intent vs. evidence. The timeline shows they will attack anyone, anytime, for any excuse. But the computer thing alone.. Jesus Christ. Yea, Draka is gimped sufficiently to lose. Only possible surviving Draka population is the Martian Colony, and pity it when the TBO-USA implements Draka supertech into their military in a few decades...