Shadow point - Technical discussion and Analysis thread

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Shadow point - Technical discussion and Analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2006-11-13 12:04am

I'm still slogging through Ciaphas cain (almost done, but it takes time) so I figured what the hell, I'd start Shadow point.)

Again, I'm going to do it by batches, and then later cut and paste the links

I'd also like to ask peopel from refraining discussing other 40K novels in this thread unless they pertain to some particular comment (either as suppelementary evidence, evidence that might further asist analysis, etc.)

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2006-11-14 07:16am

Sorry, I started this last nite but grew tired of typing it out. I'm already nearly to page 100 quote-wise, but there were alot of gaps in the early part. The latter part is where much of the technical stuff lays...

Part 1

Page 13 - An Inquisition fortress has a buried facility 300 meters below the surface of the planet (indirectly, this may serve as indication of how deep Exterimnatus bombardments must go to inflict damage.)

Page 16
Standing with the others, he stared into the deep, still smouldering wound which had been gouged into the earth. A glance at the map display on his data-slate confirmed the almost unbelievable. According to the information, this twelve kilometre-wide gaping abyss of burning gases and smouldering, still semi-molten rock had, until just a few short days ago, been the location of a heavily-defended Imperium planetary base home to thousands of Imperial Guard troopers, Adeptus Mechanicui adepts and servants of the myriad of other branches of Imperial Government.

All across the planet's surface, other settlements and Imperial outposts had been struck and obliterated during the lightning-fast raid, but this, Horst knew, was the main object and target of the attack. Here the fell touch of Abbadon the Despoiler could truly be seen on the surface of Purgatory, scarring the face of hte planet forever.

Horst looked down, and, through the haze of burning, sulphurous gases, saw the marks on the sheer sides of the crater, where, from high above in space, an orbiting warship had directed a coruscating beam of lance energy down onto the palnet's surface, blasting away the topsoil and all of the fortress built upon that topsoil, and probing deep into the underlying bedrock of the planet.

How many lance-armed warships would it take to accomplish suc a task, the inquisitor asked himself? He both marvelled and feared the thought of the massive outpouring of firepower that must have been required to carve such a wound through the planet's dense, rocky crust. And then a second, more troubling, thought suddenly struck him. What if it wasn't a fleet of warships? What if all this were the work of something else, some terrible new addition to the Despoiler's armoury which they had yet to encounter?
A 12 km wide hole is punched in the ground by an unknown Chaos ship, evidently melting and vaporizing it into the planet's crust. With data given below (calcs below) a figure can be derived.

Oddity of note: Horst speaks as if he KNOWs a single ship did it, but later wonders how many "lance armed warships" would it take? with the implication being the feat was beyond Imperium capabilities.


Page 17
He looked again into the depths of the crater, rechecking the stream of info-runes now scrolling across the face of his data-slate. Despite the enormous energgy stream that had been unleashed on the surface here, it was plain to see that it had somehow been expertly contained and targeted to an almost uncanny degree of precision. The overlaying surface material had been simply blasted away, yes, but, after that, the energy stream had been tightly focussed as it drilled down into the planet's crust, obliterating dense rock and mineral deposits in micro-seconds as it pushed deeper down into the planet's core, almost as if it were probing in search of something/
Again, reference to a single energy stream (implying a single ship, as above.) Also note that the process occured in a very short time (implied "micro seconds") as well as being an unusually precise and controlled bombardment, which tells us that the attack was unlikely to be a "maximum power" feat.

Drones and servo-skull scouts have been despatched into the fissure. We estimate it to be at least eighteen thousand metres deep.'
The hole extends at least 18 km into the planet's surface. However, we also know that it evidently did not breach the mantle (lack of mention of volcanic/mantle ejecta reaching the surface.) Assuming a 12 km diameter (which it should be roughly, given the menas of bombardment) and a silicon composition, the mass is 4.74e15 kg. Melt energy would be 1.21e22 joules. Vaporization energy would be 6.22e22 joules.
Thus, the energy (depending on melt depth) is at least 1e22 joules but probably not more than 1e23 joules. in any case we know by the fact that Horst was able to stand on the planet mere days after the incident that it wasn't an extinction event (or probably anything closer.) The evident lack of mention of ejecta or dust loading obscuring the sunlight is problematic, but we could conclude that since this was largely a recollection of Horst's memories, that it was there or just not recalled (or considered imortant enough for recollection.)

The other point of contention is whether it was one ship or a group of ships. In parts it seems he speaks as if a single ship fired a single lance to do this, whereas later comments imply he felt a fleet might have been involved (and quite possibly a large number with multiple lances.) The context is also not clear on what kind of ship or ships are involved, although it is heavily implied to be Abbadon's planet Killer. The duration is implied to be very short.. no more than a second or so, and probably alot less (milliseconds or microseconds.)

In terms of firepower relative to Imperial ships, the quote does not seem all that impressive on the surface, especially in contrast to other incidents (such as a flotilla of battlehsips rendering a planet lifeless in a couple of barrages.) but do recall that this may not be an incident where maximum firepower was used. On the other hand, a single lance strike (as explicitly mentioned) could quite easily deliever the level of damage described above, so it could be reconciled either way. The best explanation, howver, seems to be that the attack was carried out by the Planet Killer, and that the duration was so shot it only involved a fraction of its full power (thousands or millions of times greater.) And that Horst was comparing the potential offensive firepower of the Planet Killer to an entire fleet/squadron of Imperial warships (couple hundred to a couple dozen, ,probably)

If we assume as ingle ship, non palnetkiller, with a single lance.. the firepower per "lance" is in the e22-e23 range (a battleship coudl be an order of magnitude or higher or so if we assume the ship is a cruiser.) If we factor in the "duration" of less than a second, the figuer could be anwhere from 2, 3, 5 or 6 orders of magnitude higher.

If this is the Planet Killer we are talking about, then tis sustained firepower woudl be somewhere in the e27-e29 watt range - a bit on the high end given what I previously calculated, but perfectl valid.

It would also imply Imperial power genration averaging around e25-e27 watts (consistent with the "stellar power genration", at least for Battleship class vessels.


Page 27
Not even the lowliest rating or indentured slave-worker aboard any of the hundreds of Imperial Navy warships under his command would be in any doubt abou tthe figure's identity, even without the magnificent diamond-inlaid and gold-woven rank sash he wore across his tunic breast
According to this Battlefleet gothic is composed of "hundreds" of warships. Whether this is just capital ships or includes escorts is unknown (presumably it includes escorts, though.)


Page 42
The Eagles bore on, until the pitted and battle-scarred hull of their target must have filled their entire universe, and then, at the last possible moment and with only scant metres to spare, they broke formation and peeled away, their navigator-companions simultaneously giving the mind-thought order to their craft's infinity circuit systems. A brood of missile-slivers launched away from each craft, piercing the target vessel's hull in a space of time immeasurable by the crude animal-minds of he vessel's occupants. Another infinitesimal moment later, and the missiles' sonic charge warheads detonated deep within the target, unleashing a carefully orchestrated symphony of destruction. The human vessel did not so much explode as shatter, transformed in an instant into a rapidly expanding sphere of twisted metal and fragmented ruin.
Their manuverability is such they can pull a sharp 90 degree turn mere meters from the hull (analogous to the ANH proton torpedoe's ninety degree turn.) Assuming they were travling at several km/s (which is what Imperial fighters frequently do), we could easily infer tens of thousands of gees worth of acceleration (which would be consistent with Imperium warships pulling high thousands of gees accel rates - the Eldar are considerably faster.

Additionally, note the velocity of the missiles was sufficient they could cross "meters" in a time immeasurable by human reactions (what Eldar reactions are, is not known to me.. anyone know?) It also implies their "needle" like deisgn allows for very high penetration.

The destructive mechanism fro the missiles is curious (sonic weapons in space? Even if detonating inside the hull?) Because it appears to be quite similar to Slave-1's seismic charges- some sort of force field/kinetic blast effect with little to no thermal effect. It is designed to exert tremendous force on the target in order to tear and shatter it through shearing, not melt or vaporize. (at least, tahts the best mechanism I can derive from what is provided.)


Page 47
She had stood on this deck and watched in satisfaction as star-bright beams of pulsar lance energy effortlessly laid open the thickly-armoured hulls of the human vessels, as flights of eldar torpedoes, mind-fast and almost impossible to detect, ruthlessly and effectively hunted down and destroyed the slow and ponderous enemy ships
Eldar Pulsar lances can penetrate Imperium shields and armor effortlessly (implying nearly isntant penetration?) This suggests their "per lance" firepower is at least an order of magnitude greater than Imperium ships (whose hulls and shields can take many seconds worth of bombardment from their own weaponry, usually.) This might imply something on the closer o mid tof high TT/low PT firepower, dependiing on the calcs used.


Page 49
The tiny mechanoid creatures were a marvel of technological achievement, nano-devices the secrets of which had taken the eldar thousands of years to attain, and far in advance of anything the galaxy's younger and less refined races could yet manufacture.
The quote implies nanotechnology, although the machines are evidently detectable to Eldar vision (which suggests they aren't nanoscopic.) Its possible this refers to nano-scale precision engineering, representing the scale of miniaturization of technology the Elder are capable of (and what the Imperium and other races lesser than the Eldar cannot do.)


Page 64
Even when not in battle, there were at least a dozen deaths a week on the Macharius, an unremarkable statistic which passed as the normal hazards of duty aboard a navy vessel. Crewmen crushed by heavy machinery in the torpedo room or flight bays, crewmen vaporised by energy surges while working amongst the innards of the ship's power systems, or even, for those wretches unfortunate enough to be consigned to the lower decks where the ship's atmosphere processing systems were at their least dependable, poisoned, frozen, or killed by sudden air pressure changes.
Lif aboard ship is hazardous even in noncombat situations. Note tat at a rate of 12 deaths a week (minimum) and a 10,000 crew, the Macharius could still last for years (16 years) before needing a replacement crew. Although the decrease in muscle power would have to limit some tasks.

Also note that eviently the ineffiuciencies/residual energies of the Macharius's power transer systems can "vaporize" a human beingz. Given the many teratons or more of energy they are capable of generating, losing megawatt/Gigawatts of power in such a fashion speaks of great efficiency (Although I can't say it would do the interior of the ship much good if it happened ferqurently)

Page 65 - Drug use seems a fairly prevalent and unofficially-accepted practice aboard most Imperium vessels, analogous presumably to the use of alcohol aboard Age of Sail vessels in the 18th and 19th Centuries.

Page 67 - Even engineering unfiorms (a quilted jacket in this case) involves the construction of kevlar. Presumably flak jackets and similar armor is comprised of at least comparable material.

- A "volley of bullets and las-blasts" tear apart a fairly athletic human woman.

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Post by SylasGaunt » 2006-11-14 09:09am

A note on the Eldar thing, Eldar lances are indeed better than IOM ones. In the cased of the tabletop game this is represented by them being able to score up to 3 hits with a single shot to the one caused by most lances.

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Post by NecronLord » 2006-11-14 01:55pm

To what does the quote on page 49 reffer? Warp spiders?
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Post by white_rabbit » 2006-11-14 04:50pm

NecronLord wrote:To what does the quote on page 49 reffer? Warp spiders?
Little bug things that tend the Wraithbone vegetation.

As I recall, the farseer also bemoans the fate of the eldar is to decline, as he feels theres fewer every day of the hundreds of thousands of them.

Of course, like most eldar farseers, he's a deeply depressing person, so without actual proof, he's probably just being emo.
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Post by Chris OFarrell » 2006-11-14 05:11pm

NecronLord wrote:To what does the quote on page 49 reffer? Warp spiders?
No. Small machines that clean the wraithbone spirit trees that had grown out of the spirit stones planted in the core of the craftworld.

To make a few points on some of the other things you've said.

My take on the planet bombardment was that it was heavily implied he knew it was the Planet Killer and he was comparing its destructive power to that of a fleet of warships needed overhead to achieve the same feet. It's really the only way to reconcile him asking how many lance armed warships it would take, then contently acknowledging in disbelief how a single focused beam had done this work. And frankly a hole 12 klicks wide is a little too wide for a lance shot, they are renowned for their tight focus and accuracy. The planet killers Armageddon gun OTOH...

Battlefleet Gothics size is in the hundreds of ships if you include relativly unimpressive warships, probably including non warp capable system defense monitors. At the end of the book, we see the majority of the battle lines heavy ships engaging one of the Despoilers fleets and its much less then 100 ships.

The Eldar attack run doesn't say anything about a 90 degree turn nor their velocity. They could have been skimming along the top of the starship before pulling away and accelerating. There isn't enough information to make a judgment call.

The Eldar Pulsar lances 'effortlessly' is a dubious quote. She is recalling times she has seen it happen and the destruction of ships. It doesn't even mention void shields or what class of ship. She may well have been shooting up troopships or freighters for all we know. After all later in the book we see the Vaul'en Sho firing its lances upon the Macharius and its void shields ward off almost all of the weapons fire, leaving only a small salvo of fire which did minor damage to her hull.
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Post by Chris OFarrell » 2006-11-14 05:19pm

white_rabbit wrote:
NecronLord wrote:To what does the quote on page 49 reffer? Warp spiders?
Little bug things that tend the Wraithbone vegetation.

As I recall, the farseer also bemoans the fate of the eldar is to decline, as he feels theres fewer every day of the hundreds of thousands of them.

Of course, like most eldar farseers, he's a deeply depressing person, so without actual proof, he's probably just being emo.
Well he also says he had spent days carefuly studying their patterns and functions at one point and has kept track of them over a long time period...so I would hazard he may know what he is talking about.
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Post by white_rabbit » 2006-11-15 06:34pm

The Eldar Pulsar lances 'effortlessly' is a dubious quote. She is recalling times she has seen it happen and the destruction of ships. It doesn't even mention void shields or what class of ship. She may well have been shooting up troopships or freighters for all we know. After all later in the book we see the Vaul'en Sho firing its lances upon the Macharius and its void shields ward off almost all of the weapons fire, leaving only a small salvo of fire which did minor damage to her hull.
Given the commerce raiding role the eldar spent so much time in during the Gothic war, it wouldn't surprise me if she's just thinking happily back to murdering convoys of weakly shielded ships.
.so I would hazard he may know what he is talking about.
There are tens to hundreds of thousands of the things.

He can't even pin it down to an order of magnitude, yet he's supposed to know that there are less ?

:lol:
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Post by white_rabbit » 2006-11-15 06:39pm

Damned no edit function.

I forgot to mention, the Biel-Tan are fond of SHOOTING clouds of tiny bugs, wraithbone parasites and shit at people they really want to erase, so I really do think the Farseer is just being a glum bastard in this case.
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Post by Chris OFarrell » 2006-11-15 07:03pm

white_rabbit wrote:
The Eldar Pulsar lances 'effortlessly' is a dubious quote. She is recalling times she has seen it happen and the destruction of ships. It doesn't even mention void shields or what class of ship. She may well have been shooting up troopships or freighters for all we know. After all later in the book we see the Vaul'en Sho firing its lances upon the Macharius and its void shields ward off almost all of the weapons fire, leaving only a small salvo of fire which did minor damage to her hull.
Given the commerce raiding role the eldar spent so much time in during the Gothic war, it wouldn't surprise me if she's just thinking happily back to murdering convoys of weakly shielded ships.
Yeah she really has a problem. Though whats good about Rennie's novel is that he writes the rest of the Eldar as acknowledging her hate of the humans and how it makes her an outcast from the Craftworld, one step above the pirate Eldars in their opinion.
.so I would hazard he may know what he is talking about.
There are tens to hundreds of thousands of the things.

He can't even pin it down to an order of magnitude, yet he's supposed to know that there are less ?

:lol:
Touche :P
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2006-11-16 03:48pm

Chris OFarrell wrote: My take on the planet bombardment was that it was heavily implied he knew it was the Planet Killer and he was comparing its destructive power to that of a fleet of warships needed overhead to achieve the same feet. It's really the only way to reconcile him asking how many lance armed warships it would take, then contently acknowledging in disbelief how a single focused beam had done this work.
Yes, that's one possilbe interpretation I discussed (the "best answer" as I recall.) It is still an imperfect answer, however, as coordinating a "micro-second" burst bombarmdent amongst dozens or hundreds of ships is going to be exceedingly difficult (which is why I suggested Horst was thinking of the sustained firepower of the Planet Killer.) The "less than a second" duration is more easily reconciled with a single ship.

Unless we're talking a few small crusier scale vessels here, the bombardment isn't goign to mesh with other examples (IE CAves of Ice, where a few salvos from the lance batteries of a Battleship squadron can render a planet uninhabitable.)

The only other alternative maybe to fudge the duration (say tenths of a second), say maybe a couple dozen cruiser-scale vessels (Given the ratio of cruisers to battleships in most "fleets"), and assume a substantial degree of vaporization in the crater (which may help account for the lack of large or noticable debris.) That might, I think, put the firepower rating of cruiser scale vessels roughly in the E22 watt range (within an order of magnitude either way.)

And frankly a hole 12 klicks wide is a little too wide for a lance shot, they are renowned for their tight focus and accuracy. The planet killers Armageddon gun OTOH...
Um, given the evidently absurdly-short duration implied (micro-seconds remember), the event is almost certainly to be a fairly explosive melt/shatter/vaporization event, which means you're getting supersonic/hyeprsonic shockwaves traveling out from the point of impact (hence allowing it to affect an area larger than the beam's diameter.)
Battlefleet Gothics size is in the hundreds of ships if you include relativly unimpressive warships, probably including non warp capable system defense monitors. At the end of the book, we see the majority of the battle lines heavy ships engaging one of the Despoilers fleets and its much less then 100 ships.
IIRC the BFG manual says the Gothic system has hundreds of inhabited systems (and many more uninhabted/unexplored), so thats about one ship per planet at best. Considering the vast majority of those are going to be escorts (2/3 to 3/4 would be my guess, or around 30-40 squadrons), you're probably talking fewer than a dozen battleships, and a few dozen cruisers of varying classes (no more than say, fifty.)
The Eldar attack run doesn't say anything about a 90 degree turn nor their velocity. They could have been skimming along the top of the starship before pulling away and accelerating. There isn't enough information to make a judgment call.
Given that the "battle scarred hull" filled their cockpit and no mention of the prow or engine area of the ship si mentioned, they're evidently coming in on the side or tops of the ship perpendicular to it (or roughly so.)
Pulling out and racing away "scant meters" from the hull, especially given the very short (faster than human reactions) time it took the missiles to penetrate and deotonate, as well as the need to put some distance between them and the ship before its destroyed, would neccessitate a fairly sharp turn.

I should also point out this is highly consistent with acceleration rates Imperium Capital ships display in Sabbat Martyr - 8000-9000 gees from crossing 8-9 au in ~91 minutes (with the accel favoring the higher end of the scale.) Imperium fighters ought to be capable of tens of thousands of gees easily, to say nothing of anything the Eldar have.
The Eldar Pulsar lances 'effortlessly' is a dubious quote. She is recalling times she has seen it happen and the destruction of ships. It doesn't even mention void shields or what class of ship. She may well have been shooting up troopships or freighters for all we know. After all later in the book we see the Vaul'en Sho firing its lances upon the Macharius and its void shields ward off almost all of the weapons fire, leaving only a small salvo of fire which did minor damage to her hull.
We'll see the weapons mentioned agian later, in battle, so we'll see how they stand up to capital ships then. The effective firepower doesn't seem dramatically different form the recollection.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2006-11-16 04:19pm

Page 74
Semper nodded in acknowledgement, and looked out through the command deck's front viewing bay. Through the metre-thick armoured glasteel, and still thousands of kilometres distant, but magnified by the viewing bay's in-built augur systems, he saw the wide scattering of targets ahead.
- the viewports of the Macharius are a meter thick. They also have their built in optical magnification/viewing system.

- The Orks are "thousands" of kilometers away, and are out of weapons range.

Page 76
Still, at least the energy release from their weapons fire gives our gunnery surveyors an easier target to lock onto.
- targeting sensors here are represented as passive systems, at least partly, and their accuracy is added by detecting the energy discharged of weapons fire (presumably not the weapons fire itself, but inefficiencies in the dischrager - electromagnetic radiation or charged particle radiation, for eaxmple.)

Page 80
In the cockpit space behind him, Kaether knew his tech-adept navigator Manetho would now be altering the squadrons comm-net frequencies, setting up blocker walls to filter out the enemy's interference.
- an indication at least that some measure of communications EW is known or practiced, although actual jamming is not mentioend, its more of incidental projtection against the interference of the incomprehensible ork language.
Kaether's eyes flickered between the view through his cockpit, as the distant shapes of the ork vessels loomed ever larger before him, and the information scrolling across his instrumentation panel's surveyor screens as the closing distance ot the enemy counted down in kilometres and seconds,
- closing speed of the fighters on teh Roks is multiple "kilometers a second".

Page 81
Explosions filled the void around them, radioactive and more conventional fallout debris buffeting violently against the Furies' armour. Kaether's craft rocked violently , caught in the electronic squall from a nearby ork dirty-bmb explosion
- Ork point defense evidently involves the use of some sort of nucelar (probably fissionable) detonations and conventional explosives.

Page 82

- Mention of the ork "comm net interferencee"

Page 83
" The torpedo wave's target had been the two largest rok-fortresses in the enemy fron tline. The roks were massive, one of them easily over eight kilometres from tip to tip, and possibly as many as four kilometres across. Eight torpedoes s truck it, the remaining six finding the other one. Normally, it might have taken several dozen torpedo strikes to destroy targets this large. Not today, however. Today the Imperium warships were using new ordnance: so called "rock-buster torpedoes", specially designed for the task at hand.
- Ork Roks arre approximately 8 km long and 4 km in diameter. Also mentioned is that it takes "several dozen" regualr torpedoes to destrtoy the roks. Six to eight "rock busters" strike the torpedo. Note that it might be tempting to assume that 1 rock-buster is equal to 3-5 regular torpedoes, but this comparison isn't quite valid because the two weapons work on distinctly different pricniples (as will be explained later.)

Page 84
The torpedoes struck the pitted and cratered surface of the roks, their armoured nose-cones spinning like giant drill-bits and boring into the porous rock. The missiles burrowed deep into the bodies of the aseroids, drilling through hundreds of meters of rock in seconds. When the high-speed drill motor burned itself out at the end of its short lifespan, it triggered the warhead payload. The torpedoes exploded. Their payload was not the conventional plasma-fusion warheads used in normal ship-to-ship actions, designed to melt and destroy ship's hulls and set their internal compartments ablaze. Instead, the rock-busters warheads were packed with high-explosive seismic charges, designed to shatter and pulverize rock, setting off a chain-reaction of aftershocks within the structure of their asteroid targets far in excess of the payload's explosive yield.
- nose cones of the torpedoes allow the rock busters to penetrate and drill in before detonating, at a velocity of about 100 meters per second or so. If we knew the mass of the torpedoes, figures might be deriveD (lower limit, anyhow) - also note that the armored front of the torpedo appears to be unharmed by the sudden/hard penetration (which confirms the idea that said torpedoes also tend do double as kinetic impactors as well as explosive warheads.)

- normal torpedo warheads are said to be 'plasma fusion", although this does not mean conventional fusion, but probably more like a plasma or meltagun effect (it burns through the target via prolonged contact.) In this case they "melt" through metal hulls (Thus they likely also can melt through asteroids fairly easily as anything metallic.)

- rock buster payload is stated to rely more on shock waves/seismic effects pulverising the asteroids as opposed to metling/shatering, despite the evidently low yield.

- Given the aforementioend asteroid dimensions tha if we assume rocky (with some metallic elements in unknown quantities), the asteroid would take around 200-500 megatons to "fragment", and hundreds (170-200 GT to 500-600+ GT) to melt (we can assume melting because thats what the "plasma-fusion" warheads mentioned later are stated to do.) Shattering will probably apply to the Rock-buster specialist torps we see here. Given the yield, we can safely assume (conservatively?) that conventional torpedoes would be in the gigaton+ range (single or double digit GT, depending on figures.) This coudl also vary depending on range (although in this battle that seems to be fairly close range.) The fragmentation energy for the rock-busters is probably in the low MT range (tens of megatons)

From the safety of the bridge, Semper saw one jagged shard larger than a frigate strike another rok, piercing it like a dagger and sending it tumbling askew out of the ork formation.
Section of a rock is "larger than a frigate", but is small enough to serioussly damage another warship.

Page 85
The new experimental ordnance devices were rare and expensive and so far in short supply. Semper had little doubt that, assuming they actually survived the engagement, he and his fellow captains would be recommending that the rock-busters become partt of the standard specialist-range of torpedoes available to the forces of Battlefleet Gothic, after their first and highly successful tresting here today under battlefield conditions.
Brief mention of procurement and what passeds for research developments in the Imperium.

Page 86

- They were within range of the Ork batteries by then, suggesting Ork weaponry is significantly shorter-ranged than the Imperium counterparts (probably because their accuracy sucks ass.)
A combined salvo of mass-reactive howitzer fire - each shell the size of a Fury interceptor fighter - and tracktor-beam launched plasma meteors smashed apart the crippled rok, finishing the task begun by imperium torpedoes.
Ork matter cannon batteries fire "fury-sized" shells, which implies similar tonnage (around 200-300 tons per shell, IIRC.) It is possible Imperium weaponry (such as nova cannons and Bombardment cannon) fire similarly massed warheads.

Also mention of tractor beam launched weapons (what a "plasma meteor is.. no frigging clue) 0 presumably this is the weapon we see later using parts of its own ships mass as weaponry.
Semper felt the strong impact shudder run through his ship as enemy fire landed its first direct hit on the Macharius, stripping the cruiser of one of its void shields.
- Cruisers evidently have multiple, independently working void shields covering distinct sections of the ship and providing overlapping cover (a fact later confirmed in the Ghosts novel Sabbat MArtyr.)

This preusmably allows shields to "drop" to recharge/dump waste energy/heat without dangerously exposing the ship to enemy fire (they can cycle between active and inactive shielding.

Page 87
"A minor hit on our forward starboard side," reported Ulanti, consulting the information scrolling across his screen. "Voir shield generators are fully operational, and shield integrity is already regenerating itself."
- description of the effects and results of the impact described above.

PAge 89
The Graf Orlok mounted an effective fighting retreat, its own batteries of laser cnanon and fusion beamers silencing the guns of one of the enemies. STill, the Lunar class cruiser was in mounting trouble, its void shields stripped away and the explosive bloom of successufl enemy hits erupting along the length of its hull.
- Armament of a Lunar Class cruiser evidently includes laser and fusion weaponry as well as torpedoes.

Page 90
A powerful tractor beam was brought into use as a huge and primitive catapault weapon, sieizing and ripping away parts of the rok's own asteroid body and hurling them into space at the Imperium ships. The weapon was typically orkish, barbaric and makeshift, and typically highly effective. One of the Cobras, turning too late out of its torpedo run, was smashed in half by the impact of an asteroid missile fully two hundred meters across.
- ork tractor beam weapon. Note that its evidently flinging massive projectiles, a 200 meter asterid enough to smash apart a Cobra destroyer. 200 meter long asteroid, assuming granite composition (ignoring iron)is around 1e7 tons (the metallic complements could add greatly to this figure, though Assuming it moves as fast as a torpedo (tens of km/sec - call it 30 km/sec) resulting in the kinetic energy of just over a gigaton and some 3e14 kg*m/s worth of momentum. The destruction of the destroyer, given the description, is quite clearly mechanical due to the ship being torne apart at the impact ppoint.


- Marauder bombers described as being less well suited for deep space combat comapred to Starhawk bombers (presumably due to their primary use as atmospheric craft, i believe.) The ships carry plasma bombs and armor piercing warheads (krak missiles?)
From its position in amongst the main cruiser formation, the Fearsome fufilled its supporting role to devastating effect. Its massive, jutting, prow-mounted nova cannon wreaked havoc amongst the ork roks, firing explosive projectiles into their midst at near-light speed.
- mention of the nova cnanon projectiles traveling at "near-c". Assuming a 200 ton projectile, the KE of the round must be around 1e23 joules, with 4.2e14 kg*m/s worth of momentum.

(Incidentally, using the 200 ton figure from above with the .quarter light speeD" bombardment cannon velocity from Execution Hour, a bombardmen cannon would possess around 6e20 Joules of KE and 1.55e13 kg*m/s worth of momentum.)
and Fury fighters adapted to specialist reconnaissance duties were in close amongst the enemy target cluster, feeding back accurate and instantaneous telemetry data to the Fearsome's gunners
-The Imperium uses Fury fighters to relay target-cooridnate information to other Imperium ships in combat (presumably to aid in long-range weapons fire such as nova cannons, and possibly torpedo guidance.) Note that the "instantaneous telemetry" bit implies the range is alot less than one light second (IE virtually no lag.. probably more like half or a third of a light second, tops.)

Presumably they utilize fighter-relayed telemetry to assist in longer range bombardments as well. Tactically, if they carry telementry-guided torpedoes (one fo the canon torpedo variants, IIRC), they probably can use fighter-relayed telemetry to enahnce their performance as well.)

Page 91

- Four nova cannon shots reduced two roks to "drifting and shattered asteroid debris. The last shot "striking its target dead-centre and breakign it apart like a giant sledgehammer, indicating that Nova cannon ARE capable fo direct as well as indirect fire (they can work as kinetic impactors, in other words.)

- given Orkish technology and Ork nature (ie the psychic aspect of it) and the fact they can get usuable acceleration from chemical propelled engines, it may be highly possible that the "Roks" are more durable than they might normally be (think ORk Structural integrity field) which may explain why they require multiple Nova cannon hits to take out.

- Ork fighter-bombers run on "chemical reaction thrusters". Rather odd, and absurd, that, since chemical reactions are grossly inefficent for propelling ships, even small ones.

Page 92

- point defense guns have difficulty tracking/hitting targets extremely close to the hull (understandable, of course.)

- mention and use of "flechette missiles' for anti-fighter roles.
The ork fighter was two hundred meters away, a second later and it was one hundred and fifty meters away. The time to lower the thickly-armoured blast shields over the command deck's vulnerable viewing windows was minutes gone.
Ork fighter-bomber mentioned traveling at a velocity of 50 m/s prior to near-collison. It also takes "minutes" to lower the blast shields over the viewport.

- Ork cannon shells from a fighter-bomber can partly crack but not shatter glasteel of the Macharius's viewport.

Page 93
The Drachenfel's lance batteries gored into the sides of another rok, blasting away or vaporising hundreds of tonnes of soft, porous rock.
Vaporising "hundreds" of tons of rock requires tens or hundreds of terajoules worth of energy - seems rather low for he firepower a single lance could dish out, even on a cruiser.

Page 94
Whatever the substance was, it was apparently highly fissionable. It ignited instantly when the star-hot power of the lance beams touched it, setting off an instantaneous chain reaction through the interior of the rock. The entire rok disappeared in a nuclear flash, lighting up the void like a second, short-lived miniature sun.

The sudden and massive energy burst overwhelmed the Drachenfels shields and temporarily blinded its scanner systems.
If we assume 1/1000th of the ship's volume (to account for empty space and other materials involved in the rok), the mass of plutonium would be around 2e12 kg. Plutonium evidently releases slightly less energgy than Uranium per kg (about 8.5e13 joules per KG is what I found) releasing a potential 1.7e26 joules max (Probably lower, given the "plutonium would not be concentrated in a single location and I'm doubful how rapidly/effectively a chain reaction could be sustained in such circumstances. On the other hand, the feasiability of what is described to begin with is up for grabs too, so...

- the Drachenfels lances evidently have some sort of neutron element to them sincee they set off a "chain reaction" in the material (I'm not even sure you could technically GET critical mass in a fissionalbe material like that, anyhow. ) Although we don't know hte precise composition of the asteroids, the energy (Briefly) overloaded the cruise's shields and sensors.
Who else, he laguhed to himself, but the greenskins would build a fortress base upon an asteorid streaked through with deposits of enriched plutonium?
- The fissionable elements of the hull are said to be plutronium, confirming the nature of the nucllear detonation (As we didn't know.)

- Zane's fighter has a mind-impulse (mind-machine) link to his fighter. He's also much more heavily cybernetic than normal (enhanced eyesight, a cybernetically enhanced brain, among other features) due to his run in with a chaso creature in the previous book.

Page 96
The orks' primitive power systems and crude fossil fuel engines through out unpredictable energy signals, confounding the Imperium's more sophisticated scanning devices/
- Imperium scanners are puzzled by the variable output energy singautres of Ork vessels. This probably explains why some craft rapidly fluctuate their output readings (or some capital ships drastically cut power.) as a valid anti-detection tactic.

Page 106
The tractor beam wasn't powerful enough to bodily drag or hurl the Macharius through space, as the orks had done with the aseroid missiles which had been directed at the Graf Orlok and which had smashed apart one of Vanguard squadron's Cobra destroyers, but it was still easily capable of destroying the ship. The powerful gravitic forces of a tractor beam, recklessly manipulated in teh right way, could be used to crush or tear apart a target, or at least a portion of a larger target
- Description of how tractor beam weaponry works. The gravitic weapons mentioned to be part of a weapons battery prorbably work on a similar fashion.

PAge 108
"Engage port and starboard thrusters - anchor us in space. Channel all available power to the defense shields and set the shield frequency to four poitns above the norm." He broke off, favoruing the officers of the Macharius with a rare explanation of his methods. "Studies have shown that changes in shield frequency can interefere with teh gravitic fields of tractor beam weapons.
- with teh right "Frequency" shields can block tractor beams (although what frequency has to do with any of it is beyond me.

Page 112

- "Molten metal salves" are evidently used to seal up hull ruptures and other battle damage.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2006-11-20 02:14am

well time for another update (a rather small one) By my estimates two, maybe three, more to go.

Page 134
The eldar ship semeed to flicker in and out of existencee, its image actually jumping confusedly from one place to another in spacee. At times, Ramas saw multiple images appearing around it, often merging and blurring into each other. Whatever damnable alien technology the vessel was using to defend itself, it had the same confusing effect on his gunner's targeting systems as it did on the human eye. lance beams cut through space around the oncoming ships, probing in vain to find it.
- Eldar holofields in action. Note that it is evidently more than just a stealth/ECM device, it actually seems to affect the naked eyes as well as sensors (presumably a peculiar optical/psychic effect, either likely given Eldar tech.)

Page 142
He knew something of Borusa's below-decks activities, but feigned to turn a deaf ear to any reports on the subject which managed to reach him. Such things had always gone on aboard the vessels of His Divine Majesty's Imperial Havy, and it was a foolish captain who did not realise that these kind of illicit arrangements, if kept within reason, ,were necessary for the smooth running of any ship and its crew
- Semper consideres the limited proliferation of minor crime onboard ship a neccessary evil in keeping the ship stable. Although (of course) he won't interfere if any of it runs afoul of the ship's Commissar or other law-keeping forces (if any.)

Page 144
Tall, thin, and greying - he showed all the signs of expensive and subtle rejuve treatment, and Semper could only make a haphazard guess at his age as being somewhere between sixty or as much as four or five times that figure
- anti-aging technology in the Imperium can prolong a life at least to 240-300 or more years (possibly more like 500-600, given that Horst was merely in his sixties)

Page 147
Surveyor and Augur scans from all five vessels probed into the unfamiliar reaches of the system, searching for any source of danger to the Imperial vessels. Quickly, and one by one, the captains of each vessel received and collected information from their bridge crews.
- Surveyors and augurs, despite some sources, seem to be distinct kinds of sensors, although what they detect is not specifically noted. (Surveyors and augurs both seem to be capable of active and passive modes as well, which is consistent with fluff from certain sources.)

Also of note is that they are able to scan the entire system in a presumably very short period of time. This May imply some measure of FTL scanning, but this is not certain. It does suggest multi light hour ranges, however. (or at least system-level scanning ability.)

page 148
"You could hide a Ramilies star-fortt or two in the electronic backwash from that damned pulsar and anyy recently-arrived vessel here would be none the wiser from the scrambled surveryor readings it woudl get back from the thing. Emperor only knows how many ships you could claok in amongst the asteroid belts."

Semper smiled. "Agreed, Mister Ulanti. By the time you get close enough in-system to see what might be hiding in the petticoats of that pulsar star, then whatevers waiting for you in those rock fields would have had peltny of opportunity to jump out and bite you on the arse.
- the limitations of detection systems - the electromagnetic interference of a binar star pulsar hampered the ability of sensors to detect things in-system. ( And also hampered the coms.)

Evidently, the implied reduction in effectiveness was such that enemies in the asteorid field would be in attack range (tens or hundreds of thousands of km) before anything hiding in or around the pulsar was detectable (If the Stabia system were like our own, the asteriod field would be 2-4 AU out form the sun. ASsuming they scan at the edges of the system, assume 20-40 AU, we might see between a 10 and 20x decrease in sensor quality from the effects of the Pulsar.)

Do note, this does have implications for enemies with any sort of EW capability (at least if they can manage similar interference intensities.)

Page 150
"We've conducted a full surveyor sweep of the system," Smemper told Horst, careful to keep any inrritation out of his voice. "If there's anything out there other than us, we've not found it yet.
- Again, implication of system-wide (multi-Light hour?) scanning capability from the edge of the system, with teh further implication (but no certainty) of the detection including FTL detection.
Semper looked down at the technical data scrolling across the slate's viewing plate, and frowned. "These frequencies are extremely low-level, and the prime fluctuation vector you're suggesting in these equations is extremely unorthodox. The Despoiler's vessels aren't too dissimilar to our own, with a broadly similar power output signature. Anything two or more ratio levels above these figures is enough to detect anything, friend and foe alike, within a radius of at lest three AUs.
- These are evidently frequencies (as we learn) that Eldar vessels are detectable out to, and it is implied that a slightly "higher" emission signature would normally be detectable otu to several AU (which also establishes a harder lowedr limit on Imperium sensor ranges, incidentally.)

This quote also establishes that the parity (int erms of reactor power, at least) between Imperium and Chaos vessels is roughly similar. Any differences (such as in speed, firepower, etc) therefore are not signficant, or the differences are not attributable to power generation alone (differences in power transfer, differences in the max power output settings of individual weaponry, efficiencies, etc.)

The "frequencies" used by the Eldar is rather peculiar - evidently the Imperium (priro to this) never bothered to scan certain frequencies in an attempt to detect ships or phenomena that may use those frequencies (such as the Eldar0 for some reason. Either because they didnt know they existed in that manner (unlikely, given Semper's reaction) or they were considered unimportant (likelier, given his reaction.) This may suggest similar gaps exist elsewhere (possible, but unlikely.)

Page 151
"Throne of Earth! There, eighteen thousand kilometres to our starboard rear. Vandire's teeth, they're practically staring right up our arese.
- The Eldar vessels, now detected, are behind the Imperium ships (nearly so, ,which as we know from Execution hour is something of a blind spot) once the new settings were incorporate.d This tends to suggest that Eldar stealth/holofield capabilities degrade the detection capabilities of Imperium ships by a factor of thousands or tens of thousands (from several AU or so to a few tens of thousands of kilometers.)

Eldar vessels. Three of them, all easily within striking distance of the Macharius and its sister ships.
- the Eldar ships were considered to be well within range of the Imperium ships, implying a longer range at least several times greater (but we already know they can potentailyl hit targets out to hundreds of thousands of kilometers away.)
Semper looked at the comm-channel frequency information on the data-slate handed to him by Horst. As with the surveyor settings, the information displayed was strange and unfamiliar, the frequencies at the far end of the spectrum from those used by the Imperium.
- This implies a similarity in design/function/nature between Imperium comms and their detection equipment (assuming it is just simple EM radiation, which it may or may not be.)


PAge 152 - the Eldar ships are well within lance range of the Drachenfels, again reinfrocing the "closer than long range" implication.

Page 153 - the Elder cruiser and Macharius are in high orbit around the planet. (at least 36,000 km out for an earthlike planet, which we know due to the presence of the people on it as well as a breathable atmosphere.) but more liekly 2 or 3 times that distance.


Page 165-166
Massive and overwhelming, brutal and threatening, it seemed solid and formidably permanent in contrast to the slender, delicate, wraithbone-formed vessels of the eldar. Kariadryl could only imagine how many teeming thousands of humans there were aboard the massive cruiser, but he was all too painfully aware of the far lesser number of eldar - barely more than a thousand - who made up the crew of the Vual'en Sho..

And the humans had - how many, he wondered- thousands or tens of thousands of such vessels, spread all through the galaxy? In stark contrast, An-Iolsus could only muster a handful of ships, most of which were held in reserve for the defence of the crafworld itself. In his darkest thoughts, Kariadryl strongly doubed that the entire eldar diaspora, scattered as it was across dozens of craftworlds all through the galaxy, could gather its collected forces together in greater numbers than even the size of the single battlefleet grorup which the humans used to control this sector of their far-flung empire.
- Eldar vessels are evidently smaller and carry smaller crews (the Macharius[i/] is considered "massive" relative to the Vual'an Sho and its crew is only about a thousand compared to the ten thousand of the Macharius.

The Farseer also speculates that the Imperium probably has "thousands" or "tens of thousands" of such cruisers in its Navy. Upon what he bases this conclusion is unknown, but it can be taken safely as a lower limit (And probably a fairly accurate one to within less than an order of magnitude, given what we know from otehr sources that is implied about the Imperium's Naval size.)

The implied numbers for the Eldar (or at least the "free/mobile/available" assets, I suppose) seems rather low, even if it is a rough order of magnitude estimate ("hundreds of ships" in comparison to Battlefleet Gothic.) even given only "dozens" of Craftworlds.

Page 169


The dust storm and the strange composition of the mica fragments it was composed of was making long-range comms transmissions from the planet's surface something of a problem, not to mention the effects of the unpredictable electronic interference from the system's binary star pulsar. They had been able to talk to the Macharius since their arrival on the surface of Stabia, but sometimes only intermittently, and all such communications had been an ongoing struggle against the natural forces which ruled the planet Stabia and its solar system.


- The structure (Eldar, if I remember correctly) has force field technology that repels matter of a certain size/mass/velocity. Note we know from the Codex:Eldar that their groudn vehicles (or at least some vehicles) utilize forcefield technologies ind efensive measures, although Battlefleet Gothic never covered this fro capital ships. (one could assume it counts as "armor' of some kind, ,as it did not appear to degreade/weaken in the sense void shielding does.)

Page 170


"An explosion!" shouted Ulanti, drawing his laspistol and placing himself protectively in front of Horst. "An orbital strike, possibly. We're under attack!"

"More like a teleportation shockwave," answered Horst, knowing that even this was not strictly true. Teleportation technology was rare enough - amongst the forces of the Imperium, only the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes were equipped to withstand its potentially lethal rigours - and he had found no recorded evidence of its use amongst the eldar. Nevertheless, piecing together mayn fragmented cluse and suppositions, there was plenty of evidence to suggest that the eldar race possessed some advanced form of transportation technolgoy unknown to the Imperium, since there were so many reports of eldar raiders appearing suddenly on a planet's surface after somehow having been able to completely bypass and elude any orbital or planetary system defenses which might have been in place.



- Mention of teleportation technology in the Imperium and its role/scarcity. Also note, they have hints about the Eldar webway, but they do not actually know of its existence (at this time.)

Page 171 - Naval armsmen (and evidently Inquisitor's retinues) are equipped with infra-red filters or scanners.

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Post by Inquisitor Ryan » 2006-11-20 08:12am

Page 170

Quote:

"An explosion!" shouted Ulanti, drawing his laspistol and placing himself protectively in front of Horst. "An orbital strike, possibly. We're under attack!"

"More like a teleportation shockwave," answered Horst, knowing that even this was not strictly true. Teleportation technology was rare enough - amongst the forces of the Imperium, only the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes were equipped to withstand its potentially lethal rigours - and he had found no recorded evidence of its use amongst the eldar. Nevertheless, piecing together mayn fragmented cluse and suppositions, there was plenty of evidence to suggest that the eldar race possessed some advanced form of transportation technolgoy unknown to the Imperium, since there were so many reports of eldar raiders appearing suddenly on a planet's surface after somehow having been able to completely bypass and elude any orbital or planetary system defenses which might have been in place.



- Mention of teleportation technology in the Imperium and its role/scarcity. Also note, they have hints about the Eldar webway, but they do not actually know of its existence (at this time.)

Page 171 - Naval armsmen (and evidently Inquisitor's retinues) are equipped with infra-red filters or scanners.
It also implies that teleportation is a potentially dangerous technology for any other than the Space Marines.
amongst the forces of the Imperium, only the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes were equipped to withstand its potentially lethal rigours
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Post by Bedlam » 2006-11-20 01:36pm

I wonder if that means physiologically / phycologically equiped i.e. physical enhancements stand up to teleportation or technologically equiped i.e. there armour contains teleport homers and stuff.

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Post by Dark Hellion » 2006-11-20 03:13pm

I do know that part of it has to do with teleportation literally consisting of chucking people through the warp. Often Marines will come out with claw marks on their armour, psychic frost covering them, and probably for a split second saw every nightmare you ever had condensed into one image. For normal people this means coming through bloody, frostbitten, and pissing yourself. For a Space Marine, it's Tuesday.
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Post by Stormbringer » 2006-11-20 03:50pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:- Mention of teleportation technology in the Imperium and its role/scarcity. Also note, they have hints about the Eldar webway, but they do not actually know of its existence (at this time.)
Actually, that should be qualified. Captain Ultani doesn't know of the Eldar Webway but to the Ordo Xenos, Space Marines, and Adeptus Mechanicus do. Like a lot of information about aliens and alien technology, it's compartmentalised but humanity at large knows of it.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Page 171 - Naval armsmen (and evidently Inquisitor's retinues) are equipped with infra-red filters or scanners.
Not exactly uncommon. It's not standard issue kit but Guard recon units, stormtroopers, and upscale Guard regiments all boast similar equipment to one degree or another.
Dark Hellion wrote:I do know that part of it has to do with teleportation literally consisting of chucking people through the warp. Often Marines will come out with claw marks on their armour, psychic frost covering them, and probably for a split second saw every nightmare you ever had condensed into one image. For normal people this means coming through bloody, frostbitten, and pissing yourself. For a Space Marine, it's Tuesday.
That's not entirely true. Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and other Inquisition personell make use of teleportation technology as well. Granted those are also a cut above the ordinary. But the technology is not by any means exclusive to Space Marines.
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Post by Inquisitor Ryan » 2006-11-20 04:45pm

That's not entirely true. Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and other Inquisition personell make use of teleportation technology as well. Granted those are also a cut above the ordinary. But the technology is not by any means exclusive to Space Marines.
Of course not or you couldn't do teleport attacks in BFG, which leads to the question, why is it potentially fatal for the majority but not for space marines, Inquisitors etc.
And if it's so rare why is it implied that all Imperial Capital ships are equipped with it.?
And even more interesting, can they be used in the Warp?
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Post by Stormbringer » 2006-11-21 02:33pm

Inquisitor Ryan wrote:Of course not or you couldn't do teleport attacks in BFG, which leads to the question, why is it potentially fatal for the majority but not for space marines, Inquisitors etc.
It's actually pretty risky for anyone. It's just that Space Marines and Inquisitors, they tend to have some degree of mental protection from the warp-spawn. Stormtroopers too even to an extent.

Of course Space Marines have an added advantage in being genetically engineered and augmented badassed. So suddenly reappearing with your leg now merged with solid rock, isn't going to you.
Inquisitor Ryan wrote:And if it's so rare why is it implied that all Imperial Capital ships are equipped with it.?
Capital ships themselves are rare enough. And teleport units aren't on every capital ship, by fluff only a handful of them. So it's not terribly suprising that some select units of capital ship do carry them, since they have their uses.

The only vessels that come close to having universal teleportation, are Space Marine Strike Cruisers or Battle Barges and the Inquisition fleet (excepting the Black Ships, for obvious reasons) out of which many are Strike Cruisers.
Inquisitor Ryan wrote:And even more interesting, can they be used in the Warp?
Due to the mechanics of it, probably not. And it certainly wouldn't be a good idea.
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Post by Ford Prefect » 2006-11-21 06:03pm

Stormbringer wrote:Stormtroopers too even to an extent.
Stormtroopers could make teleports because they are trained badasses. It must be quite literally drilled into them - "You will be badasses! NO EXCEPTIONS!". This is not a subjective thing based upon individual members of the Stormtroopers, but a universal thing shared by them all.
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Post by Adrian Laguna » 2006-11-21 06:49pm

Stormbringer wrote:The only vessels that come close to having universal teleportation, are Space Marine Strike Cruisers or Battle Barges and the Inquisition fleet (excepting the Black Ships, for obvious reasons) out of which many are Strike Cruisers.
Nit-pick: Black Ships are not a type of Inquisitorial ship. All ships used by the Inquisition are Black Ships, because they are painted black in order to advertise that the owner can and will order everyone around.

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Post by white_rabbit » 2006-11-22 04:34am

Adrian Laguna wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:The only vessels that come close to having universal teleportation, are Space Marine Strike Cruisers or Battle Barges and the Inquisition fleet (excepting the Black Ships, for obvious reasons) out of which many are Strike Cruisers.
Nit-pick: Black Ships are not a type of Inquisitorial ship. All ships used by the Inquisition are Black Ships, because they are painted black in order to advertise that the owner can and will order everyone around.
Perhaps not exclusively, Dark Adeptus/Grey Knights make reference to the Inquisition Fleet base around jupiter have Battleships from Battlefleet Solar seconded, presumably long term to the Inquisition.

I can't imagine they repaint 7kilometre long behemoths black.

Plus, Souldrinkers features an Inquisitor lord whose cruiser is "black" in that its got an extensive electromagnetic/psychic stealth field. the actual ship is just bare steel.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2006-11-24 03:42am

Well, here I go again

Page 174 - mention of one captain Vanyan Karasev, notable because he is a ship's officer/captain who was not nobility, but "came up through the ranks" on merit, as it were. Despite the evident implication that officers like Karasev are a rarity, it is clear that the upper echelons do not actively discriminate against such individuals - indeed if they prove capable enough, they may be groomed for higher rank.

Page 175
The eldar vessel had been arrogantly showing off, almost taunting them, as it executed a bewildering series of complex manouvres, shocking them with its sudden turns of speed and confounding the abilities of their surveyor systems by modulating the density and frequency of its energy signature, alternatively fading away completely from their augur screens and then appearing elsewhere from its last reported or estimated position in a sudden flare of energy signal.
- Another example of sensor countermeasures in 40K - the Eldar vary the "denisty" and 'Frequency" of the energy signature, sometimes disappearing entirely before reappearing in another location. (In other words, they change the strength and duration of any emissions they have, sometimes cutting them off entirely, until they arrive in a new destination.) The method by which this is done (if its simply a matter of altering the emissions manually or if it is some separate system causing the effect - ie some form of cloaking or an aspect of their holo-fields) is not specified.
"Surveryor contact, two AUs to starboard, and closing!
- Surveyors in this case (at least on a firgate) can detect what is assumed to be an Imperium warship to a distance of 2 AU.

Page 176 - Augur screens evidently deal with optical and visual sensors, given that the captain orders a visual of the craft he detects (so they're basically telescopes and variants thereof.)

Page 177 - Eldar torpedoes are considerably faster than Imperium ones, and a Sword-class Frigate evidently has a crew of 800

Page 180 - Dark Eldar have torpedoes capable of disabling/disrupting ship's systems by supposedly "draining the energy"

Also, the Dark Eldar evidently have some kind of weapon capable of "shredding aparrt" another Eldar's torso in a single hit. (either those spliner guns or presumably a shuriken weapon.)

Page 186 - An eldar bomber's viewscreens can magnify at least a hundred times normal.

Page 187 - Eldar bomber missiles may shatter against the "Dense armor' of Imperium warships. Evidently, given commentary on page 186, they rely on striking "weak points" in teh hull to ensure penetration.

Page 192
The first Kaether and his squadron knew of the emergency was when an entire series of amber and red warning runes flashed into life across his control console, as his helmet's comm system was filled with screaming static, and his craft was violently buffeted by invisible waves of energy.

His veteran pilot's instincts immediately knew the cause of the power surge interrference which was currently threatening to overwhelm his Fury's control systems, but his conscious mind took several vital more seconds to realise what was happening.

"Evasive manoeuvres! The Macharius is raising its shields," confirmed Manetho, from the cockpit space behind him. "We're too close! We're caught in the flux of the energy backwash!"

Kaether fought with the controls, powering the Fury out of the grip of the invisible force which was threatening to destroy it. He fed more power to the engines, ,seeking to put as much distance as possible between himself and the Macharius and the energy forcee it was now throwing out.
- indications and effects of raising shields: For one thing, shields evidently interfre with some comms transmissions, at least with fighters. Logically, ,given the aforementioned similarity between comms and sensors, one could infer that void shields also act to interefere with enemy sensor targeting.

Additionally, the fact that Kaether feared his fighter's destruction also tells us something of the nature of shield/matter interactions. Physical amtter contacting the shields is destroyed. This is interesting, ,as the destruction seemed to be certain independent of ship velocity (Kaether had just launched at that point and were close to the ship.) which runs contrary to what is hinted at elsewhere (alternately, its possible higher-velocity objects impact the shiled like some physical barrier, destrroying themselves in the process.) In this instance, ,however, it seems that the ability of fighters to penetrate shields is due to some other property than velocity.

Page 193
The Macharius had its shields up now, probably at full strength, judging by the amount of feedback wash which was still cutting into the Fury's own onboard systems. The shields would bear the brunt of the enemy's initial attack, protecting the ship frrom serious harm, but the impact of the enemy weapons fire against the powerful void shield barrier would unleash an energy burst of ferocious strength, more than capable of annihilating any attack craft caught in its reach.
As basically described in Battlefleet Gothic, shields absorb/deflect weapons fire directed at them, generating massive bursts of energy/radiation in the procecss. The "energy burst" probably represents either the reradiated waste heat absorbed by the shields, the weapons fire itself as it is blocked/shunted aside by the fields, or possibly both.

PAge 194
The long, stuttering line of energy fire struck the Macharius square on, hammering against the invisible barreier of its void shields. The eldar ship kept up the punishing torrent of fire for far longer than JAether would have believed possible, certainly for far longer than the recharge capacity of any Imperium-built lance battery could have managed. Exhausted by the relentless battering they were being subjected to, the Macharius void shields collapsed in an implosion of energy. The remainder of the eldar lance-fire slashed across the Imperial cruiser's hull, laying open its armoured flanks and blowing aparrt launch bays and shuttle docks.
- Evidently Eldar pulsar lances fire for a much longer duration than Imperium lances do. From what we know of ofther sourcecs, this probably means they can fire for at last a minute or so, possibly longer. This also gives us a benchmark for how long shields are expected to last (although this is a single lance rather than a barrage.

- again, shields release a burst of energy upon overloading/collapsing, ,although whether this is from reradiation or simply redirecting wweapons fire itself is not known.
The blast wave thrown out by the collapsing boid shields sped out in pursuit of the escaping Fury flight, crackling bursts of electromagnetic energy and fiery plasma squalls snapping angrily at the fighter's tails. At the head of the scattered formation, Kaether rode out the effects of the shockwave, ripping the flight controls tightly and mumbling the words of half-remembered prayers as he felt his fighter shake violently around him.
- Description of the aforementioend "energy burst" released by void shielding. The exact mechanism as to why this "energy burst" is generated is never precisely stated, but several possibilities can be drawn.

The first is that the shields are an absorption and reradiation mechanism, and the "energy burst" represents the absorbed energy being vented back into space. This makes sense to an extent, although it is curious why the shields must collapse before it is generated. Its possible the shields are "double blind" and that energy cannot be safely vented when they are raised. There is also the "phyiscal" element to the shields (the "plasma" as mentioned above, but the BFG manual also mentions shockwaves) which is hard to explain (some sort of emergency "coolant" venting to prevent the generators from overheating, perhaps.)

The second mechansim is that the shields physically reflect or defeclt incoming weapons fire from the hull, attempting to keep it from penetrating. The shields could still overheat and need to "vent" due to the fact that deflecting the fire will still require the sheilds to perform work, and like any device they would be prone to overheating and strain. This would also explain the components of the "energy blast", since some weapons fire is comprised of plasma as well as physical impactors (the physical impactors could be vaporized on impact and repelled as superheated gas, as well as the electromagnetic energgy)

The BFG manual describes void shields as "absorbing" and "shunting aside" or "deflecting" weapons fire, so both mechanisms seem equally plausible (or it could simply be a dual-tier system - the force field component deflects the as much of the attack as possible, ,and the rest is absorbed up to the generator's limit, whereupon they collapse and vent it

Note that as a side effect, this "energy blast" from the shields evidently interferes with targeting, so the shields could be said to have a secondary defensive capability to them (albeit one that could just as easily interfere with friendly targeting as well as enemy.)

Page 195- estimation of Eldar pilot indicates that even wounded, a Dictator class cruiser would mop the floor with the Vualen Sho in a straight fight (at least if it had its fighters and bombers.[/quote]

Page 198 - Eagle fighters can easily evade point defense fire from a Dictator-class cruiser.

Page 202 - 3 Chaos vessels 12,000 kilometers and closing from the Graf Orlok

Page 203 - The three Chaos ships (Carnage class cruiser and two Infidel escorts) picked up on Orlok's surveyors over an hour ago, despite the pulsar interference.

- Chaos cruiser had its shields stripped "severla times" by the Graf Orlok. Also note that "12,000 kilometer5s" is evidently considered "lethal range" ofr the cruiser's prow lance armaments.

- by "turning to fire" and evading, the Orlok is able to engage the chaos ships for several minutes.

- "Broadsides of massed turbo-laser and macro-cannon fire" strips the CArnage's shields againg (at least two volleys.)

Page 204: Lunar-class cruisers have at least 3 plasma reactors.

- curiously, internal fires are stated to be able to "ignite" torpedo warheads or the missile's fuel propulsion mix. This may indicate that the "fuel" itself is chemically reactive, even though its evident they run on more exotic annihilation (or greater) energy generation capabilities (at least they must in order to match their observed capabilities.)

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Stormbringer
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Post by Stormbringer » 2006-11-24 06:36am

Adrian Laguna wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:The only vessels that come close to having universal teleportation, are Space Marine Strike Cruisers or Battle Barges and the Inquisition fleet (excepting the Black Ships, for obvious reasons) out of which many are Strike Cruisers.
Nit-pick: Black Ships are not a type of Inquisitorial ship. All ships used by the Inquisition are Black Ships, because they are painted black in order to advertise that the owner can and will order everyone around.
The name Black Ships has become some what debased in the fluff of late. But originally, and properly, it still refers to the ships which make the rounds hunting down and collecting psykers. Those are, for obvious reasons, a rather specialized class of ship.
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Connor MacLeod
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2006-11-26 03:50am

Last part!

Page 210 - dark eldar weapons are fired at "supersonic" velocity.

Page 211 - single heavy bolter round blows apart a Dark Eldar's head.

Page 214 - Eldar version of a flamer has longer range and more powerful
than human version - its "potent chemical mix" can immolate and incinerate two humans in a matter of seconds ("before they hit the ground")
That implies that it generates hundreds of megajoules in seconds.

i am, however, not completely sure I believe this is merely a flamer. though, instead of a melta-gun. If it is, however, then the 'chemical mix" must have a very very high energy density, something close to or as good as burning hydrogen fuel (I'm not even sure its possible to go much beyond hydrogen.)

Page 226 - Disintegrator lance - reduces two Eldar to two "fused, smoking masses of bone and armour fragments" Again the implication is that the water/flesh is destroyed, hinting at many hundreeds of megajoules of energy per shot (but probably not GJ range, given that it does leave behind physical remains.) It may also be exotic or slightly technobabble, since it seems to generate some sort of sustained "discharge" effect that does the damage, raterh than delivering the energy rapidly on contact.

Page 246 - an unidentified ship is noted to possess shields, and this is not considered enough proof to identify it as an Imperium vessel (or Chaos.) Given that and Semper's prior thoughts that it might be an eldar vessel, this may hint at Eldar ships possessing some sort of shielding.

The Eldar codex does mention that Eldar Wave Serpant craft do have a prow-mounted energy field, so it does nto seem unreasonable that capital ships would have similar. As noted, though, they may not be 'shields" as the Imperium has them, but may behave more like a static "armor-like" defense.

Page 249 - The Drachenfels fires four torpedoes at a Dark Eldar vessel with its mime engines active (imitating the Drachenfels, ironically), only one of which hits (one misses, the others miss but detonate and hit with proximity detonations.)

The fact they are proximity detonations does hint that most torpedoes are not "directed" warheads but probably omni-directional (not much of a problem though when you consider they are normally designed to penetrate on impact and detonate inside, though.)

Page 252 - Dark Eldar shadowfields, like eldar holofields, ,affect targeting scanners and physical senses both, but the infinity circuits and senses of Eldar are not as affected by them as humans are.

Dark Eldar (and presumably Eldar) hulls are far less dense than human and ork vessels.

Page 253 - Dark Eldar powerplants are called "dark matter" reactors, but appear to be some sort of signularity or pseudo "black hole" - and the phenomena is easily detectable to Imperium scannerS (evidently, they can detect gravity.)

This, of course, implies that Eldar powerplants run on annihilation-level reactions.

Page 254 - a barrage of pulsar lance fire is sufficient to destroy a Chaos raider in a single hit. Also note the pulsar lance is refered to as a "laser" weapon.

laser cannons as part of a weapons battery evidently can fire in sustained or "slashing" attacks.

Carnage-class cruisers carry at leas half a dozen macro-cannon per broadside.

Page 255 - The Carnage-class cruiser's weapons batteries stripped the Drachenfel's shields away in a matter of "moments"

Page 256 - Carnage class cruisers evidently have "plasma missiles" (whether these are plasma weapons of some kind or missile launchers is not specified, but probably the latter, given that plasma weapons in other instances appear to be more like particle-beam weaponry.)

Page 259 - Eldar weapons are apparently coated with an anti-coagulant to prevent blood clotting and facilitate bleeding.

Page 261 - agoniser roudns: they inflict minimal damage, but also inject a nerve toxin that induces painful convulsions and spasms in the victim from extreme pain. Broken bones and torn joints/muscles can result, but the taget is generally alive. Also some captaives may bite off their own tongues on occasion.

Page 262 - dark Eldar armor provides "partial" protection against Ulanti's laspistol rounds, protecting the Dark Eldar from the "worst of the damage"

Naval shotcannons are powerful enough to bodily fling back Dark Eldar warriors hard enough that they smash into rock walls. Since the recoil does not knock the firing person over, we can infer that the effect comes from the "explosive scatter shells" the weapon itself fires. The implied momentum of the 'explosive" is considerable - many tens of kg*m/s worth of momentum, possibly more. (They may also be shaped-charge detonations, given that Borusa is unharmed by the effects and that shotcannons are normally "confined space" naval weapons.) This also suggests (as other sources have) they are considerably more destructive than normal shotguns or other projectile weapons (comparable to bolters in terms of raw damage, really.)

Page 263 - a single bolt from a bolt pistol blows apart most of the skull of one of the Dark Eldar's surgically butchered creations, and send it "several meters back". Subsequent shots also send it knocked backwards, bodily.

Odds are the "impact" of the bolt provides the momentum, implying that bolter rounds can hit with the force approaching that of a heavy Anti Materiael rifle. (being rocket-propelled, of course, the firing person feels nothing.) This would also be borne out by the fact Borusa in this case was not harmed by the explosive detonation of the shell (odds are a powerful enough explosion to throw someone back several meters WOULD hurt anyone nearby.)

Page 265 - Horst has a plasma pistol that fires a shot that "melts" a substantial but unquantified portion of a ravine wall behind a Dark Eldar assailant. Implies megajoule-range outputs (but again we knew that already.) Assuming between a .5x.5 meter, .2meter thick hole and a 1x1 meter, half meter thick area affected, we could infer hundreds, perhals thousands of megajoules per shot.

Page 266-267: - the fighting abilities of the "burning god" - the aura of its passage turns the rock walls around it "cherry red". Mandrakes clinging to it have the "flesh cooked" off its bodies by prolonged proximity. Splinter rifle shots vaporize againts its skin. It also can incinerate Eldar with blasts form its weapon and melt sword blades in "seconds" with a mere touch. Hundreds of megawatts of power, easily, quite likely gigawatt level or greater.

Page 274 Seventeen capital ships, including two battleships, and twenty escorts was considered by Ravensburg to possibly be the "largest single naval force" gathered together for battle since the Horus Heresy. This is probably greatly exaggerated, given the scale of battles in other section of the Imperium (MacCragge comes to mind)

Page 275 - the imperium vessels here had been hounding the Chaos forces throughout the Gethsemene system for "days" Assuming a standard earthlike system and a diameter of around 12 light hours (ignoring the fact that striaght-line courses are impossbile, and no doubling back) and a 2 day timeframe implies an acceleration of about 100 gees easily.. quite liekly more (hundreds or thousands, as this is probably at least an order of magnitude higher due to various factors.)

Page 276 - the loss of Ravensburg's forces here would represent a loss of "the grreater partt of the battlefleet's strength", and would leave insufficient force to stop the Despoiler (his vicotry would be assured.)

Given the mention prior of "hundreds" of vessles in battlefleet gothic, its curious that the lost of frewer than three dozen vessels woudl be telling, unless seventeen capital ships represented a substantial chunk of his "capital ship" capability (Which it might.)

This might also reflect on the losses taken during the battle - Battlefleet Gothic surely has shrunken from "hundreds" of vessels during the war. It is also possible that he refers to "mobile" assets, those free enough to carry the battle to Chaos without leaving themselves fatally exposed.

Page 277 - The Imperium ships launceh torpedoes from "tens of thousands of kilometers" away from their enemy, scoring a dozen or more hits (with plasma warheads.) Chaos forces respond with their "superior-ranged" weaponry of lances and battery fire (albeit "sporadic", rather than massed fire.) from tens of thousands of kilometers away. This may seem short given that "hundreds of thousands' of kilometer ranges have been mentioned, but bear in mind this is a large-scale fleet battle and situational factors can greatly influence effective targeting range (which is probably what this is referring to.)

once again mention of "thirty metre long' torpedoes.

Page 278 - a single nova-cannon shell frrom a Mars-class Battlecruiser can nearly destroy a murder-class cruiser with its warhead detonation (close proximity.)

Additionally, another mention of the volatility of plasma reactors - going into "explosive overload", again pointing to something other than nuclear fusion.

A Tyrant-class cruiser was targeted by four enemy vessels had shields on both its flanks stripped away in "seconds" (presumably, other enemy capital ships, given that it was broadside weapons fire from opposing lines of battle.)

Page 280 - dogfights between Imperium and Chaos fighters are said to stretch out across"tens of thousands of kilometers" of space, indicating the range of the battle is still grgeater than 20,000 km at this point. Shortly thereafter, the opposing fleets pass one another in combat (minutes or seconds, likely), suggesting cruising velocities of hundreds, perhaps thousands of kilometers a second.)

Page 283 - Mention of the Macharius Having twelve more torpedoes remaining after an estimated half-dozen or so salvos (possibly more, but not likely to be many many more.) There is mention of rear magazines and the ability to transfer torpedoes from one to the other, however. This would imply that most Imperium cruisers carry manyn doeznes, perhaps several hundred, torpedoes standard.

The existence of rear torpedo bays makes some sense in terms of damage control, but it also makes it harder to transfer them to forward tubes, so the design feature remains curious. This may hint, however, at the existence of other (aft mounted?) tubes, though.

Page 284-285 - mention of the use and deployment of mines by Chaos forces to cover their retreat. How they are deployed or their exact numbers/power remain unknown.

Page 286-287: A chaos cruiser is "blown apart" by multiple pulsar lance strikes.

Mention of the "battle" of Getssemane lasting for "days" as the Imperial forces pursued the chaos ships throughout the system.

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