One Ep Fed Tech Equipped Federation Vs The Empire

Veers · Post by **Veers** » 2002-07-31 04:29pm

If you could equip the Federation with any Tech seen in one Ep and then forgotten for its fight against the GE, what would it be?

I'd say those dimension crossing teleporters that ignored shields. Seemed to not use the killing/reconstruct method of moving that transporters do either.

They could be attached to exploding things and moved to the power generators of GE ships, which I think can be safely concluded have chain reactions when blown up. Though we haven't seen a Star Destroyer blow up do to power plant attacks, we have 3 Wars movies where the Bad Guy gets taken out in precisely this way.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-31 04:32pm

I would also go for the Subspace transporters FYI they are in two episodes and the dominon/Borg may use them but that isnt certain.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-31 05:14pm

Lol weeeeeeee another useless Tecnology

Phase cloacks are your best bet Subspace Transporters IMO are useless as passing through any solid dense objects damages what your sending

Through Porusus Astroids you get cell damage and such which if you send a person makes them feel realy sick and fall down after you port them

Through Hard Dense Multie-layerd Buckheads

Or to say it another way

Sir Transportaion succesful the Away Team are on the ISD however there is a problem
What Data?
Thier skin is not

We already went round and round about Subspace Transporters and thier effectivness for over fifteen pages because of the old Trekky debate over the Subspace Bomb of Doom(TM) The only problem with it besides it being, I'll be honset its a great idea, However To go through Hulls and Soild objects presents problems as every inch you go through the object you send will be damaged slighty, more-so with more material and denser matieral.
And Bomb Triggers are notiruosuly delicate, If you ship the thing over with half a wire missing its a big dud :\

The end result is while they may or may not be blocked by a Imperal Ships shields(Which block subspace Communcation and no one has been able to provided any proof or hypothesis(Edit* resonable theroy not yanked out my lower regions theory) that Subspace communcation which uses tranmists energy and subspace transporters which transimts objects in the form of energy are fundmently diffrent)

They certinanly WILL take damage from the Imperal Ship's Hull and Bulk-heads along with the strong possbility that they can be jammed by SW by defualt and if not adapted to

and jammed after some exposer as jamming as anyone back-yard miliatant milita man knows, Is dead easy

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-31 05:22pm

Mr Bean: And so it begins.....

Proof of your claims that the transporters cause such damage - the Terrorists using the device were dying because of repeated use - there was nothing linking density of matter transported past to the cell damage, in fact repeated use seemed to be the cause (their may be a like but I havent seen any proof - whats yours?)

And now you want to know why comms and Subtrans are different well we know Geordi couldnt come up with a way to block it, however comms have been jammed before in Star trek thus Comm arent similar in function to Subtrans.

You want proof of Subspace comms jamming in ST, well here it is

ST 6.3: Dominion jam communications in the UFP fleet,

In Emissary the Cardassians block comms.

As per The Mind's Eye(romulan jamming) Jam the comms of a starfleet shuttle.
Improbable Cause (romulans),
In Message in a bottle the Romulans Jamm comms.

Way Of the Warrior(Klingon jamming), Jams the comms of Kasidy Yates ship.
The Sword Of Kahless (klingons)
Nor The Battle To The strong (klingons)

So as you can all the major races can block comms.
So Geordi knows who to block comms, he doesnt even mention it as a possibility thus subspace comms arent the same as subtrans.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-31 05:47pm

Darkling give in now your outmatched

I spent two weeks on this going back and forth and its all still fresh in my mind, I even went and saw the epsoides
I'll begin my assult line by line as is my tradtional method, I'll spare you from my normal Crushing assult directly on your logic which will make you question your very existance!

Proof of your claims that the transporters cause such damage - the Terrorists using the device were dying because of repeated use - there was nothing linking density of matter transported past to the cell damage, in fact repeated use seemed to be the cause (their may be a like but I havent seen any proof - whats yours

Incorrect, The Cell damage was not a gradual thing EVERY time they transported, Guess what through Materials they suffered slight damage, When they tranported through rock they suffered much worse than usual damage because they where going through objects
Second and my key point ITS BECAUSE THATS THE WAY SUBSPACE WORKS
Now I'll back that up
To achive warp drive a ship according to your Mr La Forge and numerous others puts most of its mass into subspace(near all of it by most accounts) but even in Subspace matter still reacts with matter in the normal portion of realspace
IE Even if your in subspace you still react weakly with matter in the normal space

Check Wong's Site for half a dozen or so examples but the main example is why can't you Warp through Planets? Or Stars? Or any half a Dozen Big Solid objects that have presented the opertunity?
Because matter still reacts and what your doing is by warping through that object is interacting with it and since its Kinetec and because of the interaction you for all intents and purspoes leave bits of yourself behind on the Rock/Ship/Planet/Black-Hole
100% Cannon facts, see Wong's Data Base for specfic examples

And now you want to know why comms and Subtrans are different well we know Geordi couldnt come up with a way to block it, however comms have been jammed before in Star trek thus Comm arent similar in function to Subtrans.

Now Darkling look at the evidance you just provided, Can you see how this is a huge Leap in Logic into the abyss of oops

Now then in the evidance you provided..

ST 6.3: Dominion jam communications in the UFP fleet,

In Emissary the Cardassians block comms.

As per The Mind's Eye(romulan jamming) Jam the comms of a starfleet shuttle.
Improbable Cause (romulans),
In Message in a bottle the Romulans Jamm comms.

Way Of the Warrior(Klingon jamming), Jams the comms of Kasidy Yates ship.
The Sword Of Kahless (klingons)
Nor The Battle To The strong (klingons)

Wait for it waaaaait for it now then....

So as you can all the major races can block comms

Darkling sorry to do this but
La Forge is a Memeber of what Race now? Humans right? And they belong to the Federation Correct?
Now then
Where are your Federation Examples of them jamming somthing?

There is the similar situation as a certian *unamed to prevent further humiation who said that not only could the Borg could use phase cloacks on the cubes because the Federation had before,
Except they haddenit had they?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-31 05:51pm

Ooops forget a part
Right after where it says See Wong's Data base should be

Your assuming that Subspace Transporters are some magic new thing

Well What exactly are they?
Transporters that use subspace(And are thus FTL possible) with a much longer range
In essance they are Transporters that use a new medium to transport in and because of this can go further before *signal strength degrdaes and you get a pile of Goo at the other end
If fact, Just a guess if you where to measuere Transporters Currant range convert it into Light Seconds then compare it to Subpsace Transporters range I would not be suprized if the time you can go are identical while the only real diffrance is speed of the information

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-31 06:01pm

So you are staking your entire argument on the fact that the Federation doesnt have jamming while every othe race does?

You also cant show that a bomb would take huge damage - this damage was very small, required repeated use and a few transports werent enough to cause damage according to what Dr Crusher believed.

Thus your theory that the bomb would be rended useless on reaching its destination still needs more proof.

Please give some proof on the level of damage is related to the matter passed during transport and not due to the number of transports - I see yo point on the way subspace works but theres proof that shows the Subtrans seems to be unstable with its matter regardless of the matter its passing.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-31 06:21pm

Back to this again....

We went through how many pages on this, Darkling? Again I list why it won't work, even if we accept that comm jamming == sensor jamming.

1) Neutronium armour.

2) Ships being on the move.

3) Being killed because the Imperial warship will see you first and move to engage.

Do I need to bring up the quote which shows an ISD can scan all of Subspace again? I know you hate that.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-31 06:33pm

SirNitram: You got left behind long ago these issues have already been resolved.

I have shown htat sensors and Subtrans arent the same - this was conceded and I have also provided evidence for the same about subspace comms.

1)It was agreed that Subtrans is less affected by normal matter - My Bean gave evidence for this above and I also did a calculation on how thick and dense a material would need to block a normal transporter and it was high.

2)True I admitted that the actual getting the weapon to arrive intact was a problem but it wasnt 100% way to protect a ship.

3)Yes this is possible but once again it doesnt discount the transporter working it just MAY limit its combat use (at least it would give the Feds a chance).

Must I also bring up the fact that subspace has infinite domains and we dont know which they use (if you want to get picky it does say DOMAIN iot plural so its hardly stabnd up proof along with the fact that scanning all of suibspace would be useless because it doesnt conform to subspace, you have one obscure quote open to alot of interpretation - it could mean all of subspace (I pointed out about 5 problems with this and you opnly have a single weak quote )).

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-31 06:40pm

I point out that Geordi could well have been using hyperbole, that there may been many, many subdomains of subspace, he merely doesn't know how many(Honestly, how would he calculate that it's infinite? Actually think that one through, please.). The technical specifications of the ISD's 'Ranger' communications tracker are, however, military specs. They clearly state it can scan all of subspace. You don't like this because it cuts the balls cleanly off of Starfleet, but oh well. It's there, and you have no real rebuttals.

As for the other points..

1) Neutronium is well and definately dense enough to stop it.

2) Concession accepted.

3) Concession accepted.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-31 06:50pm

SirNitram: I dont need rebuttals anyone with a readinbg ability above that of a 5 year can see you havent brought up anything new.

1) Proof? what you dont have any ... what a shame.

2)Doesnt stop it - Concession accepted.

3)Doesnt stop it - Concession accepted.

Now as for your great quote.

1)It can be interpreted many ways - its in reference to subspace comms so it could mean it just scans all possible comms channels (why have a comms system scanning non comm channels????????????? im waiting)

2)The power and equipment necessary are prohibative.

3)We have no evidence the empire has the ability to access the other subspace domains.

4)We have never heard about the Empire invading or being invaded by beings from the other subspace realms (which it seems are populated).

5)If you take that quote as literal as possible (which you want to do ignoring all context etc) we here DOMAIN - semantics, yes but thats how you are trying to use it so I shall respond in kind.

You have nothing SirNitram at least give Mr Bean a shot he has an understanding of what the discussion is about.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-31 06:55pm

I think that phase-cloaks would be the most useful for SF, although the sub-space transporters come in a close second.

BTW, I also think that Ezri's sniper rifle was REALLY cool, but I don't think that would help them much in a long war against the Empire. If anything, it could only prevent them from losing quite so badly, but it could not threaten starships. The other ones might give them an opportunity to do a little damage to the Empire.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-31 07:00pm

So you are staking your entire argument on the fact that the Federation doesnt have jamming while every othe race does?

Your saying they do
You provided examples for everyone else BUT them
If you can not provided any examples of them being able to jam, And I can name thirty examples of the top of my head that jamming would have sure as hell helded and by your own admission La Fordge could not block Subspace Transporters and who have the SST been used by or aginst BUT the Federation?

And as I said eariler during the thread it does not matter if you can get the weapon there 99% intact(more like 81-96% with all the Materal in an ISD, plus distance could add another 5% or so) because Bomb Triggers are notriously easy to break(Movies got it all wrong, I took the time to look up actual terriost bombs and pipe bombs and even military bombs, It is extremely easy to fudge a trigger and have a dud bomb, Heck desipite all the money we throw at the problem even GPS Guided Million Doller, inspected before flight bombs we droped in Iraq and Afiganastan we had a few hundred tons of dud bombs, Heck Newsweek had pictures of one *unexploded bomb in there Janauray 2002 issue)

But thats just a side note
The Burden of Proof is not on me, You said that Transporters and Communcations are fundmeltaly diffrent and if you notice while I concided the Sensor point(I never said they where, diffrent principles) you never provided satisfactory evidance to the contrary )
You never proved that point in that thread nor have you or can you prove it in this thread
You have no examples of the Federation being able to jamm anything or even carrying jamming equipment, Sure Data might be able to re-configure the Hot-Water Heater and Toaster into a Radar Jammer but bring Tecknobable cause I said so aurgments into here under pain of death.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-31 07:04pm

Mr Bean even if I gave an example of the Feds jamming comms you would just claim that it isnt enough - you cant be convinced.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-31 07:08pm

Mr Bean even if I gave an example of the Feds jamming comms you would just claim that it isnt enough - you cant be convinced.

Sigh and I had such hopes for you
Ad-Homean notice how you try and get out of provding any example by claming I will disrgare it is rather arrogent no? Do you now think for me?
Darkling I'm suprized at you, you should know by now I NEVER let it get personal or Disregare Evidance, What do I look like User99 or Darkstar?

A simpler way of saying it is this way

You posted, A, B,C,D
I agreeded with A,
I disagree with B and C
However you have not provided any Proof for D

Prove D
Or Drop it
So we can get on with B and C.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-31 07:12pm

The Reliant a starfleet vessel blocks comms during WOK.

Thus SF vessels are capable of blocking comms.

So sensors arent the same as subtrans.
Comms work differently than subtrans.
I provided evidence for both.
I even supplied a theory as to why this is.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-31 07:15pm

Wow, Darkling. Chill out, little man.

1) Neutronium has a max density of 3.16x1018 kg/m3. I await your proof this is not enough to stop transport.

2) It stops it, it prevents effective use, so deal with it little man.

3) See 2).

As for your desperate attempts to discount evidence...

1) 'It Can Be Interperated Many Ways' is a bullshit copout. I expected better from you. I love your wording here 'non comm channels', complete with the multiple questionmarks that indicate a diseased mind. Of course, you don't realize that a far more mature civilization(SW), with far more experience with subspace(approx. 250,000 years), might be able to use all of subspace for communications. No proof presented, therefore concession accepted.

2) The power and equipment on an ISD are certainly up to the task, because they are stated to do this. What next, the Death Star can't blow up planets because it can't generate that much power?

3) Read the quote. All of subspace is scanned.

4) Read the quote. All of subspace is scanned. Nobody attacks via subspace because it's primitive and worthless for transit.

5) I don't play semantics. Offer real proof or admit defeat.

I've got plenty, you just ignore it because there's no other way for you to cling to the Subtrans as the savior of Trek.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-31 07:19pm

Thats better
Back to B and C
If you remeber no one ever said that Sensors and Communcations where diffrent, Its a red Herring thats not the question at hand

Comms work differently than subtrans.
I provided evidence for both.
I even supplied a theory as to why this is.

Yes I remeber they use a diffrent Domain thing, Or was that Darkstar?(He stoped in for a bit if I remeber correctly on that thread)
Second what and where is the Evidance that Comms are fundmentaly diffrent from Communcations

Third

The Reliant a starfleet vessel blocks comms during WOK.

I forget what WOK refers to, Kindly Enlighten
And does that refer to LOCAL or Subspace Communcations?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-31 07:20pm

Lack of Edit Strikes Agian!
Keep in mind the obvious if your talking about Local communcations the example is worthless I'm asking for an example of a Federation Vessel Jamming Subspace Communcations

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-31 07:23pm

For those who don't know about the quote I am referring to, here it is.

SFS Ranger Subspace Transceiver (Range is 100 light-years). It can monitor more than 300 different subspace frequencies simultaneously; by altering frequencies every tenth of a second, the Ranger scans the entirity of subspace in less than 3 hours. The powerful com-scan encryption computer can decode most intercepted messages within minutes.

Note the copious lack of the word 'Domain' which Darkling is trying to claim is present. Reference: West End Games, Imperator-I Star Destroyer specs.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-31 07:26pm

SirNitram: I dont need to chill out - will dont you take your fingers out of your ears (or in this case uncover your eyes) and listen.

1.Accept I think the thread on is Neutronium real Neutronium came out with a negative.
Second we dont know how much Neutronium is contained in the hull.
Have you got weigth figures for an ISD and how much of that is hull?

2) No it doesnt it reduces effectiveness.

3)See above.

And now onto your rabid worship of a quote ala DarkStar (yes that was low).

1)Fine It refers to comms so thats what its talking about - thats my interpretation (and a valid one).

2)For Gods sakes if the number of domains is that huge and the laws of physics alter between them one transmitter CANT work for them all - more than one would be needed.
This would be a huge waste of time, effort andpower for a warship.

3)All that Domain is scanned yes (once agin you interpret it how you want it to be not based upon evidence).

4)Im talking abuot the aliens who live in siubspace (yes thats right the same subspace you would have us believe you ships constantly jammer and use shields to block) that must cause sopme problems when a ships shields start having unknown and likely damaging results upon their worlds - they are gonna come looking.

5) Ok here it is my interpretation of the quote is supported by evidence your isnt thus yours is wrong - who much plainer can I be?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-31 07:28pm

Mr Bean: Wrath of Khan and it was long range comms - subspace comms.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-31 07:36pm

Read the quote, Darkling. And I will not be participating in these Dark Star like page-long rebuttals which are just you repeating your exact same arguments over and over. I have shown you evidence which destroys your position. I'm not going to be going over it for weeks to discuss why you don't think an ISD should be able to perform it's stated capabilities. I don't play such bullshit games.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-31 07:42pm

Indeed it was quite low
Have him killed..
'
Now onto your post

Fine It refers to comms so thats what its talking about - thats my interpretation (and a valid one)

Woops looks like you just stumbled into making another statment you have to back up with Evidance
By that statment you must now provided Evidance that Sensors and Communcations are the same while being Diffrent from Subspace Transporters...

Go wild please,

And as for the Domains, Hello? Diffrent Rules of Physiscs?
Thats pure yanking it out of your arse and you know it
Domain does not equal comepetly diffrent demension of the bat where the rules of Physics go out the window at the drop of a hat lets go crazy!
Err not quite, Furthermore If you want to use correct terminogly in Radio a Set Series of Frequences is called
A Domain

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-31 07:44pm

Blasted lack of edit button

You know like Mr La Forge kindly said an infinte number of Domains?
Well tecnicaly there are an infite number of frequacnys

Another thing to think about