Does anybody REALLY still think Trek could beat Wars?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-07-27 09:20pm

I remember back in the pre-ICS era, where ignorant trekkies would nitpick the fuck out of youngs, saxtons, and wongs work (for example asteroid calcs, in fact DarkStar brought this up recently), even with there figures, SW was superior but tekkies would nitpick and ignore the posts to that end, but all that has changed for one reason.

Enter the AOTC:ICS, and so in this post-ICS era, is there really any doubt in anyones mind that trek could beat wars? I have seen posts more recenlty saying things like: "Trek could do <whatever> and that would make it harder for the Imps to beat em, but in the end the Imps would win." Although its a breath of fresh air to see delusional trekkies finally bow down to the Empire, I woudl certaintly hope that most Trekkies (not trolls ala sith lord, john clark) would see that thye have, in the long run, lost.

So is there any trekkeis out there that STILL think the Feds coudl beat the Imps? And if so SHAME ON YOU!

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-27 09:22pm

Doubt it, though are you saying just the federation, or startrek galaxy vs Empire

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-27 09:26pm

You'd have to be a complete moron to think that a Federation that is outnumbered by thousands to one and outgunned ship for ship by at least that much and whose manufacturing and logistical capabilities are comparatively piddly would be able to stand a chance.

SW wins!

Jack Lain · Post by **Jack Lain** » 2002-07-27 09:32pm

Wars wins. No doubt. It is somewhat silly to think otherwise.

But what would be interesting from a television point of view and also fanfic, is the actions and behaviors of the underground federation. This would make some good t.v. (even a debate point of view?) The UFP becomes the new rebels. That could lead to some cool stories and some neat ideas.

Star Trek: Insurgency!!

-Jack "Why Not?" Lain.

Mr. B · Post by **Mr. B** » 2002-07-27 09:46pm

I think only rabies infested trekkies can believe their universe is superior.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-07-27 09:56pm

Speaking of "rabid Trekkies", I wonder when Darkstar is going to wade in here, saying that we're all self-deluded because he has produced numerous arguments which utterly smashed every SW argument and for which we had no rebuttal because he occupies a parallel dimension where 50 rebuttals for every point = 0 rebuttals for all his points.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2002-07-27 09:58pm

Mr. B wrote:I think only rabies infested trekkies can believe their universe is superior.

Well, Star Trek has a lot more of those super-duper copout things than any other Sci-Fi universe (because their writers suck). ST has the Q, Organians, and a shetload of other super-beings, plus time traveling 29th Century Feds and other such garbage.

In a battle between just the 'regular' races, like the UFP, Klingons, Borg, Dominion etc. the Empire obviously wins.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-27 10:08pm

Darth Wong wrote:Speaking of "rabid Trekkies", I wonder when Darkstar is going to wade in here, saying that we're all self-deluded because he has produced numerous arguments which utterly smashed every SW argument and for which we had no rebuttal because he occupies a parallel dimension where 50 rebuttals for every point = 0 rebuttals for all his points.

I would tell you that he slunk away after we beat the crap out of him, but he never seemed to think we were even winning! Even Lord Poe's screenshots were not enough to get him to shut up. He's like a punching bag!

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-07-27 10:49pm

Of course there are rabid trekkies who believe the Federation could beat the empire through the use of <insert multiple treknobabble phrases like quantom singularity or subspace distortion>. They are just too afraid to come to this board.

There are also many god fearin', bible thumpin' creationist out there. They are just too afraid to come here.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2002-07-28 12:01am

USAF Ace wrote:Of course there are rabid trekkies who believe the Federation could beat the empire through the use of <insert multiple treknobabble phrases like quantom singularity or subspace distortion>. They are just too afraid to come to this board.

I was really wondering. I guess we get DarkStar because he's just too damn stupid to stay away. I bet the rabid trekkie contingent is

a) Scared of the gathering of Imperial supporters at this board, because they will no longer be the loudest group around.

or

b) Afraid of Wong's Imperial Smackdown (tm).

I think it's both.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-07-28 12:14am

What would be really funny is if Mr. Wong edited some trekkie post and made it stereotypical. I know he wouldn't have to work hard, but that would be so damned hillarious. Btw, to contribute to this thread, Empire all the way. I just want to know now figures for the Falcon's quad lasers against the Pulse phaser's of the Defiant. I reiterate Chris O'Farrell, get some!

Shadowfyre · Post by **Shadowfyre** » 2002-07-28 12:27am

Years back I thought the UFP would prevail in such a conflict (hell...I even used that lame-ass laser argument once or twice myself), but this was before I began to cultivate an interest in science and had access to the internet where the opportunity to discuss such things with many people presented itself for the first time. I eventually found Mike's site about 3 years back and after about an hour or two in denial, came to the conclusion that he knew what he was talking about (indeed, in the years since then I have yet to see anyone prove him wrong). Since then, I laugh when Trekkies make the same old arguments I once made, knowing how misguided they are. It's hard for me to think how anyone with a reasoning, rational mind can look at the evidence and still claim the Empire would lose. I know it's fictional, but the basis for compariosn is still founded on known scientific princlples and logical, deductive reasoning. Sheesh.
I mod at a Trek site, and every now and then a SW vs. Trek topic comes up. I usally provide a link to Mike's site, but that doesn't stop the denials, silly arguments and ad hominen attacks directed towards Mike from surfacing. I guess each generation has to make it's own mistakes and learn on it's own....as I did.

Smalleyjedi · Post by **Smalleyjedi** » 2002-07-28 12:32am

Even if he only saves onw rabid trekkie....we now know mike's work really IS Accomplishing something. Not that i ever had any doubts of that.

Wars kicks arse.

Romulan_nemesis · Post by **Romulan_nemesis** » 2002-07-28 12:40am

If your talking about the post Endgame Federation. Then the Federation stands a chance. Just in my own opinion...
I'm a Federation
patriot, please, don't put me in the stocks!

Rommie

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-28 12:41am

Romulan_nemesis wrote:If your talking about the post Endgame Federation. Then the Federation stands a chance. Just in my own opinion...
I'm a Federation
patriot, please, don't put me in the stocks!

Rommie

Ummm... where are you getting that conclusion, from?

Romulan_nemesis · Post by **Romulan_nemesis** » 2002-07-28 12:46am

The Federation, may be weak...but they're not stupid. They won't just let those sweet tpt's go to waste. Now, some people say tpts are only for use against the borg, but if thery made torpedoes to be used against different races and not against others, then you would have the quantum torpedo: Romulan Variant, or the Quantum torpedo: Klingon variant or the cardassian variant.....is this making sense? They have the TPT's, and they are most likely using them. So, in my opinion, the Federation stands a chance.
But if the Federation didn't put them to use.......they might just get the shit kicked out of them.

Rommie

P.S. If I sound too much like a troll, please tell me.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-28 12:49am

Romulan_nemesis wrote:The Federation, may be weak...but they're not stupid. They won't just let those sweet tpt's go to waste. Now, some people say tpts are only for use against the borg, but if thery made torpedoes to be used against different races and not against others, then you would have the quantum torpedo: Romulan Variant, or the Quantum torpedo: Klingon variant or the cardassian variant.....is this making sense? They have the TPT's, and they are most likely using them. So, in my opinion, the Federation stands a chance.
But if the Federation didn't put them to use.......they might just get the shit kicked out of them.

Rommie

P.S. If I sound too much like a troll, please tell me.

You don't sound like a troll at all, but I think you might be mistaken. No large group of humans can be any more stupid than another large group. Individuals can be geniuses or idiots, but for the most part, populations are similar. The Federation is stupid, and they would certainly use their torpedoes in a conflict with the Empire, but it would not make a difference. Imperial ships are still able to destroy even the largest and most powerful SF ships in a single shot, and no torpedoes can do similar damage to SW ships. Add to that decisive Imperial advantages in speed, numbers, and logistics, and you have a one-sided war.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-28 12:53am

Master of Ossus:If those Torps worked as stated (not saying they do) then the Imps would be driven off - it just wouldnt be worth the trouble when shuttles can fly along and take out the bridge or reactor the death toll would be huge.

Romulan_nemesis · Post by **Romulan_nemesis** » 2002-07-28 12:54am

Transphasic Torpedoes (TPTs) can destroy a vessel in one shot. I think that comes close, but the Federation probably doesn't have that many of them per ship. The Empire's "One Hit" weapons are probably loaded up the ying and down the yang on each ship.

What I'd really like to see is Starfleet Medical developing a biogenic weapon...they probably have a few skeletons in their closet

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-07-28 01:11am

Don't extrapolate the power of a TPT to the point where one could destroy the DS. Anyway, the Federation would have a chance of winning smaller than any nationwide fast-food contest.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-28 01:19am

Romulan_nemesis wrote:Transphasic Torpedoes (TPTs) can destroy a vessel in one shot. I think that comes close, but the Federation probably doesn't have that many of them per ship. The Empire's "One Hit" weapons are probably loaded up the ying and down the yang on each ship.

What I'd really like to see is Starfleet Medical developing a biogenic weapon...they probably have a few skeletons in their closet

First of all, there is no evidence whatsoever that they could destroy an ISD in a single hit. Even if they could, they would still be outgunned.

SF has developed bio weapons in the past, like the one they used to infect the founders. Well, it was Section 31, but still....

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-28 01:27am

I highly doubt one shot kills from the torps but to claim that the federation couldnt win even with a one shot kill torp is a bit out there.

Even runabouts would become viable weapons platforms for use against Imp ships and the torps do have a nice range on them.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2002-07-28 01:35am

The only thing we saw TPT's fired at were Paper Bags of a space ship, which I believe were just unadaptable, or adapting resistant weapons. We don't even know if they would go through an ISD's shields like they do the borgs. The first shots from the E-D went right through the Borg Cube Entirely.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-28 03:23am

Not even transphasic torpedos can save the Federation. Even though a tpt detonating within a heavily armored space vehicle would be catastrophic to say the least, there is still the little matter of getting close enough to get in a shot. It all really depends on whether or not the torpedos are constantly phased or they just start phasing when they get in close proximity to an object or shields. If the torpedos are constantly phased until they detonate then the Fed fleet can sit back at around 4 million k and just let 'em fly while being safely out of the effective range of light speed and slower than light weapons. If they only phase when they approach the shields or hull then there's the chance that the gunners might get lucky and hit a 2 meter long object moving at high speeds, reducing their effectiveness and fforcing ships to move in closer for reduced lag time between launch and detonation and in doing so reducing the risk of interception while increasing the risk of being hit by one of the one shot kill weapons or being pummeled into dust by the sheer volume of lower yield weapons fire.

This would of course be a post-Endgame scenario, any pre-Endgame discussions of Federation and other misc. roughly equivilant powers vs Star Wars are pointlessly one sided.

Given the right circumstances Star Trek can win, however in a straight, pre-Endgame fight, bye bye Federation, however not neccessarily bye bye Star Trek in general. My money is on the Voth for being a sleeper power and the Borg proving to be a formidable and costly opponent because all it takes is for them to board a ship once and gain access to their technical data to significantly alter the ease of victory. However, there are few (and many Warsies will undoubtably argue there are none) well documented space faring races with a vested interest in protecting the galaxy able to fight the SW powers on anywhere close to equal terms.

In a "fair" fight, no special circumstances then military supremacy is for the most part on the side of the SW races and overwhelmingly against 99% of known non-noncorporeal races. Endgame technology is a wildcard and it's effectiveness depends on the circumstances of the debate like setting and time.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-07-28 04:42am

anarchistbunny wrote:The only thing we saw TPT's fired at were Paper Bags of a space ship, which I believe were just unadaptable, or adapting resistant weapons. We don't even know if they would go through an ISD's shields like they do the borgs. The first shots from the E-D went right through the Borg Cube Entirely.

I wouldn't say they went right through the cube....the blasts that hit dead center left a decent size crater....but it didn't penetrate to the other side.