Borg vs. Empire

Morat · Post by **Morat** » 2002-07-14 11:50am

I'm sure we've all seen Borg vs. Empire debates before, but this one has a slight twist. So, if you don't mind, I'd like to see how the two fair with a little monkeywrench thrown into the works...

In an alternate version of the Star Wars universe, the Empire won at Endor, crushing the rebel fleet. However, the Emperor's plan wasn't entirely successful. He and Darth Vader were both killed as they attempted to bring Skywalker over to the dark side. Luke was soon killed while attempting to escape the Death Star. The DS2 was later completed, and the Rebellion was stamped out.

In an alternate version of the Star Trek universe, the Borg destroyed Voyager as it attacked the Transwarp Hub. A short time after this, a heavily damaged Culture Mind wanders into Borg space. Most of its memories have been replaced, and it is without any remote drones. The Borg bring it in and attempt to assimilate it, but instead it takes control of the collective. Unfortunately, most of its memories were erased, so it remembers nothing of the Culture. So, it begins functioning within the collective, greatly enhancing the strategic and tactical abilities of the Borg, without altering their general intent (ie, assimilation).

At about this time, ten different wormholes open, strewn throughout both the Star Trek and Star Wars galaxies. Seeing the exotic technology used by the Empire, the Borg immediately decide that it would be an excellent target for assimilation. The Empire, on the other hand, hopes to expand its territory into the Star Trek galaxy.

What happens?

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-07-14 12:12pm

<snip>

"What happens?"

Morat, while the scenario is interesting, I don't think it can be very much debated. It hinges far too much upon unknowns like the new strength of the Borg, the new strength of the Imperial Starfleet and (for most of us) an unknown civilisation.

I think, however, that this could be made into a kickass fanfic. Get writing.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 12:24pm

I'm thinking the ooh so fun 200 GT Main Weapons would swing it towards the Empire
Oh and can we say Thrawn?
Remeber with no leader around and a Death-Star who better to come back and take over

NTM the whole assuming that we have more superweapons problem

Oh and Stormes are natural protected Agints Borg, Not like the typical Red-Shirt
Depends on what the Borg has done to this point and how much in the way of a build up the Empire has had
Also did they finish the plan to replace TIE models with the Avenger and Defender Series?

To many unknows gotta fill those in

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-14 12:30pm

Since Culture tech seems to be far beyond the Borg's understanding of technology, it will take them a while to figure out how to build and deploy it.
They won't have the time, because the Empire attacks fast, and in full strength, with a Death Star.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2002-07-14 12:36pm

Wait, how the hell does Luke get killed trying to escaping the DS2? He could kill everyone on that station.

More unknowns, do they still develop more super weapons that don't have rebels to destroy, world devestators, galaxy gun, sun crusher, Eclipse-Class SD.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-14 12:40pm

The way Luke gets killed:
The Imperial Guard, whose fighting skills are almost as good as the Jedi's,
comes into the Throne room after Palp went down the shaft crying, there are 6 of them. They activate their pikes and cut Luke into ribbons.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-07-14 02:03pm

Well, Trekkies would say "The BOrg could become immune to Imperial weapons!", but, don't the Borg need to know what Imperial weapons are?

What is the aranment of a Borg Cube? How strong are the shields?

The fleets are almost equal, but the Empire can build new ships far faster than the Borg.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 02:16pm

The fleets are almost equal

There ships however are not
The Borg lack of tatics would be thier downfall if it where not for the Culture mind helping them. I see raming attacks as the most effective tatics

They would not have to worry at least Borg Asslimation
2/3 of the ship population is allready in sealed suits stick the rest in to won't be much of a problem that and the shear fire power of somthing like the DS would be hard to beat(The DS is designed to be a moble base of operations and is equiped to fight a fleet on its own

Three Cubes per SD would be a typical fight and most likely go to the SD easily(You have 5 units of Shield, 20 units of Hull and 1 repair every single mintue, I have 200 Units of Destruction, any questions?

to use simplest SW VS ST statistics)

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-14 02:16pm

Certianly the addition of a Mind will vastly enhance the Borg, but I just don't think they have the raw power to defeat this enhanced (or even a standard) Empire.

Morat · Post by **Morat** » 2002-07-14 03:07pm

Oh and can we say Thrawn?

Can you say Mind?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 03:12pm

Yes but I can say Thrawn better!

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 03:14pm

Whoops no edit button
Minds are nice, Minds are Dandy
But its Thrawn number one
Number two I'll say it like this
Even if you put a fully funcing mind(without its tecnology) in charge of 100 Cave Men VS Five men with m42 Machine Guns your not gonna win...

Morat · Post by **Morat** » 2002-07-14 03:28pm

Even if you put a fully funcing mind(without its tecnology) in charge of 100 Cave Men VS Five men with m42 Machine Guns your not gonna win...

That barely-functioning Mind in Consider Phlebas seemed to have no trouble taking down that squad of Medjel using relatively barbaric technology. A small army of Cave Men vs. Five modern troopers would be a cake walk for a Mind.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 03:32pm

...

Mind Explain how 100 Guys with Clubs wins VS 5 Guys with Machineguns?

....

I'm reaaly waiting to hear your dazzling logic behind that one

GSV Use Psychology · Post by **GSV Use Psychology** » 2002-07-14 03:38pm

As has been said, while an interesting idea, there are too many unknowns to get any other results other than rampant speculation.

The Mind basically has the ability to give the Borg Culture-level technology, given enough time. Borg space should be large enough to hide some construction facilities for the time needed. Once Cubes start fighting battles at Culture speeds, with light-year ranged weapon and access to Culture hyperspace it's over for the Empire.

Assuming that it can buy the time it needs of course, which should be quite possible.

Morat · Post by **Morat** » 2002-07-14 03:40pm

Mind Explain how 100 Guys with Clubs wins VS 5 Guys with Machineguns?

I dunno, I'm not a Mind.

However, based on past performance, there is no doubt that one of them could do it.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 03:43pm

...........................................................................................................

So you have no proof and you admit you have no proof

I'd concide right here and now your not going to last long aginst me.
(At very least Concide the Fact that no how brillant the Leadership 100 Cavemen VS 5 Guys with m42 Machine Guns will loose, And Loose Horribly

[EDIT: Crayz9000 - Those extra periods were annoying.]

Morat · Post by **Morat** » 2002-07-14 03:49pm

So you have no proof and you admit you have no proof

So Thrawn couldn't defeat an ISD using a VSD because you wouldn't be able to think of a way for him to do it, even though he has faced worse challenges in the past?

Speculation on the tactics that either side doesn't constitute proof.

The fact is that Minds have faced similar odds, and won (and due to skill, not luck). That is proof of their abilities.

I'd concide right here and now your not going to last long aginst me.

If you were capable of proper grammar and spelling, I might be concerned.

(At very least Concide the Fact that no how brillant the Leadership 100 Cavemen VS 5 Guys with m42 Machine Guns will loose, And Loose Horribly

Perhaps you've never heard of something called an 'ambush.'

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-14 04:02pm

I remind everyone that the Mind is heavily damaged, and that the war begins immediately, without any time at all for the Mind to begin improving technology.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-14 04:04pm

Morat wrote:
So you have no proof and you admit you have no proof
So Thrawn couldn't defeat an ISD using a VSD because you wouldn't be able to think of a way for him to do it, even though he has faced worse challenges in the past?

Speculation on the tactics that either side doesn't constitute proof.

The fact is that Minds have faced similar odds, and won (and due to skill, not luck). That is proof of their abilities.

I'd concide right here and now your not going to last long aginst me.
If you were capable of proper grammar and spelling, I might be concerned.

(At very least Concide the Fact that no how brillant the Leadership 100 Cavemen VS 5 Guys with m42 Machine Guns will loose, And Loose Horribly
Perhaps you've never heard of something called an 'ambush.'

To point 1: It's more like thrawn in an escape pod with a blaser against an ISD

point 2: ad hominem attack

point 3: Ambushing an Enemy who can destroy your ships with one shot isn't the smar thing to do.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 04:18pm

Thanks for the Strawn-men and Ad-homea Attacks

So Thrawn couldn't defeat an ISD using a VSD because you wouldn't be able to think of a way for him to do it, even though he has faced worse challenges in the past?

Speculation on the tactics that either side doesn't constitute proof

First off the first sentance makes no sense whatsoever, He can't beat an ISD with a Vic because I can't think of anything? First of all its a Strawn-man number one I'm not talking about an out-gunned Thrawn here, Second the sheer uncomhedbility of it is staggering,, I did not know Thrawn got his ideas from ME Who would have guess Thrawn entire string of Military Victorys can be attrited entirely to luck and my Brillant input and suggestison.................

Riiiigght.

The fact is that Minds have faced similar odds, and won (and due to skill, not luck). That is proof of their abilities.

With Weapons they knew and an enemy they had met before...
Your not making your case here we are talking about a completly diffrent set-up here

If you were capable of proper grammar and spelling, I might be concerned.

Ad-Homean attack oh and English is not my First Language

Perhaps you've never heard of something called an 'ambush.'

*Blinks
m42 are World War Two Eera Deployed Machine Guns

How can you ambush a stationary postion?

To point 1: It's more like thrawn in an escape pod with a blaser against an ISD

point 2: ad hominem attack

point 3: Ambushing an Enemy who can destroy your ships with one shot isn't the smar thing to do.

Wow your reallly going out on a limb here
Thrawn in an escape pod with a blaster hmm

How exactly did we get from The Borg with a partial mind wiped Culture AI fighting a Numericaly Supeiror Enemy Lead by a Brillant Miltary Tatiction
To that same military Tatiction fighting an ISD with a Blaster....

Wow you reaaly can go out there

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-07-14 06:58pm

"...........................................................................................................

So you have no proof and you admit you have no proof"

Actually, he may have a point here, in the sense that the intelligence level of a Mind is unholy. These machines, just to relieve boredom, play a game amongst themselves. They construct mental universes, simulate them. These universes can have different laws and variables. Then they extrapolate what will happen to the universe. Basically, what you have here is a machine able to simulate the formation and particle movements of a universe. In their heads. Or the equivalent.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-07-14 07:32pm

I think it would go something like this:

"Resistance is futile."

"Commence primary ignition."

*boom*

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 07:37pm

Ahh so they can consider all Variables

But then agian I made an extreme example and he still brushed it off as eh they would do it somehow brush-off

The way to trip them up is simple if rather hard to do

Insert the Unknow Varaibles

Remeber this thing has lost some of its mind its just learning how to deal with Borg Tecnology and Facing somthing it has not faced before, somthing thats roughly two-five times it size(Depends on the Force the Empire Brings to Bear) ship to ship out-guns it by a Considable Margin and is lead by Beanings its never met

Singular Quartet · Post by **Singular Quartet** » 2002-07-14 10:39pm

Mr Bean wrote:Remeber this thing has lost some of its mind its just learning how to deal with Borg Tecnology and Facing somthing it has not faced before, somthing thats roughly two-five times it size(Depends on the Force the Empire Brings to Bear) ship to ship out-guns it by a Considable Margin and is lead by Beanings its never met

Yes, but the borg already know how there tech works, and the mind has taken over the borg. Kinda poiuntless arguement, huh?

As to the empire: Avoid a fight. Parly for a little while, until what tech the mind remembers can be incorperated into the Borg.

It will likly redesign the ships into usful designs, and upgun the borg. A quick attempt can be made to capture a Romulan Warbird to get a cloaking device, which may help in the long run, but this may just be no better than a darkfeild (see The State of the Art)

While we need not expect gridfire at anypoint in the war (Maybe one or two attempts, with perhaps a lucky hit on the death star...) However, there will be a considerable improvment in tactics amongst the borg.

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