Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

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seanrobertson
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by seanrobertson »

Luke Skywalker wrote: Picard's reaction is hardly indicative of the shields being several orders of magnitude weaker than the norm. He did not do what he should have done, which is to laugh his ass off at the idea of a shield that is weaker than the human body, implying that a 4.3 kilojoule/second shield is weak, but not by orders of magnitude.
Yeah. That's totally in character for Picard :roll: "Hahahaha! That shield is so weak, we might as well transport a lighted fart at it!" He was so prone to "laugh his ass off" at inferior opponents that ... oh, wait. He DIDN'T act like that, did he?

And, again, the point misses you by a few miles. Shield output /= shield STRENGTH. A shield with an output of a few kJ is, more likely than not, unable to field impacts from megaton-ranged weapons (which I've all but said). But for rather obvious reasons (duh, AGAIN: Lysian and Satarran weapons tech is roughly comparable. A tiny Lysian destroyer can muster a couple of megajoules to its disruptors), the whole kJ thing is a stupid exercise in wanking.
Of course, it is pathetically easy to contradict this with other examples in Trek, but I think that the entire point is to only count the most pathetic showings as canon.
Only if it IS a pathetic showing, which you've done precisely dick toward proving. I showed you the size of that Lysian command center. I also gave you the quote that established a SINGLE PHOTON TORPEDO would have "ended" the Satarran-Lysian War. You know, just like Riker said. "One photon torpedo ought to do it."

Why do you absolutely refuse to compare observed effects to observed effects? That's by far the best way to measure these retarded "lowest of lowest end showings" anyway; anyone unwilling to posit most of the canon to consider those examples is just looking for a cheap way out.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Fun fact. a proton torpedo is as powerful as a quad burst from an X-wing. Which also means those capship-killing torpedoes from the X-wing series are in the kilojoule range (or if you're very lucky, MJ range However since this is lowest showings we must conclude that Protorps are roughly half a gram of TNT.

That means an X-wing squadron salvo can cripple/destroy any ship up to at least a Victory-class Star Destroyer
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Terralthra »

X-Wing Squadron proton torpedo salvos have been shown doing exactly that. A single salvo takes out a Nebulon B in Wraith Squadron, and massed proton torpedo fire takes down the Corrupter, a VSD, and forces the Aggregator, an Interdictor, to flee, with assistance from a pre-disarmament-era Alderaanian escort cruiser, in The Bacta War.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Luke Skywalker »

seanrobertson wrote: Yeah. That's totally in character for Picard :roll: "Hahahaha! That shield is so weak, we might as well transport a lighted fart at it!" He was so prone to "laugh his ass off" at inferior opponents that ... oh, wait. He DIDN'T act like that, did he?
Laughing his ass off was figurative, of course. He was certainly less confident and dumbfounded than by, say, the use of lasers against the Enterprise.

After all, a flipped analogy would be kids throwing stones at a tank, whose crew agrees, with no hint of understatement, that their 7 inch armored plating "should" be able to deflect the stones.

Why would Picard reccommend photon torpedos in order to penetrate the shields, anyway? Could a soda bottle ejected as waste not do the trick?
And, again, the point misses you by a few miles. Shield output /= shield STRENGTH. A shield with an output of a few kJ is, more likely than not, unable to field impacts from megaton-ranged weapons (which I've all but said). But for rather obvious reasons (duh, AGAIN: Lysian and Satarran weapons tech is roughly comparable. A tiny Lysian destroyer can muster a couple of megajoules to its disruptors), the whole kJ thing is a stupid exercise in wanking.

Only if it IS a pathetic showing, which you've done precisely dick toward proving. I showed you the size of that Lysian command center. I also gave you the quote that established a SINGLE PHOTON TORPEDO would have "ended" the Satarran-Lysian War. You know, just like Riker said. "One photon torpedo ought to do it."

Why do you absolutely refuse to compare observed effects to observed effects? That's by far the best way to measure these retarded "lowest of lowest end showings" anyway; anyone unwilling to posit most of the canon to consider those examples is just looking for a cheap way out.
What part of "with the worst showings" don't you understand? You are attempting to not even rationalize, but rather override this pathetic showing of shield strength and photon torpedo firepower by using far higher showings quantifying photon torpedos as being at least nuclear level in yield, read: not within the subset of "worst showings". If we can do this, then the thread itself is pointless, since all of both series' "worst" showings will simply be handwaved and rationalized by better displays of competence.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Stofsk »

This thread is fucking pointless. Star Trek weaponry is explicitly capable of dialing the power down. Phasers can be set to 1/100th power for wargames exercises ('The Ultimate Computer'), and the same for photon torpedoes ('Redemption part 2'). Both of these facts would fall under the OP's rules as 'worst showing', which is ludicrous. Starfleet dies even quicker than it normally would. Yay.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Collossus »

Stofsk wrote:This thread is fucking pointless.

Indeed...
lol I am reminded of an old Calvin and Hobbes strip....

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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Terralthra wrote:X-Wing Squadron proton torpedo salvos have been shown doing exactly that. A single salvo takes out a Nebulon B in Wraith Squadron, and massed proton torpedo fire takes down the Corrupter, a VSD, and forces the Aggregator, an Interdictor, to flee, with assistance from a pre-disarmament-era Alderaanian escort cruiser, in The Bacta War.
The Corrupter example is different: massed torpedoe fire takes down the shields on one side, Wedge flies in close and fires his next torpedoes into the bridge, killing the command crew and making the ship lose control and fall down into a giant ass asteroid field that chews it up.

And the torpedoes taking out the shields is even more problematic: Wedge thinks to himself that any smart Captain would roll his ship to present undamaged shields while restoring the damaged shield. If he can do that a second time the X-Wings will be out of torpedoes and effectively useless against the VSD. And the Corrupter's Captain tries to do exactly that, until he gets killed.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Luke Skywalker »

Destructionator XIII wrote:
Could a soda bottle ejected as waste penetrate seven inch tank armor? They have zero output! (aside from regular environmental heat and sun reflection)

Christ, how many times do we have to say output and strength are completely separate things?
What, so now you are arguing that shields are physical objects (like in your silly analogy) whose strength is not dependent on its power output? Why the hell bother doing calculations based on shield outputs when they are based on "material" strength and not power? Why transfer more power to the shields in the first place, and why bother using the ICS's shield power quantification?

If the shield output were not indicative of the amount of punishment it can withstand, why the fuck would they bother mentioning it and then draw a logical conclusion of how much will be needed to penetrate it from this?

"showing" is not the same as "idiocy pulled from my ass"
Yes, it is idiocy pulled from somone's ass, but that someone is the writer of the episode. Now I haven't actually seen it, so forgive me if I am missing some context here, but "Central Command" is armed with four laser cannons and houses over fifteen thousand people, so it's not as though its shielding would be a joke.

Fact is that Data mentioned the station's shield output (in joules, not watts), and then Picard directly came to the conclusion that a single photon torpedo ought to defeat it.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Luke Skywalker »

Destructionator XIII wrote:
Yeah, that's a reasonable argument, unlike "X KJ output means X KJ is all it can handle".
If shields were really physical objects, then they would not immediately lose integrity the moment the power goes out. Why would there have to be a shield generator projecting the defensive shield around the second Death Star? By your reckoning, shields are a physical object, so destroying the "projector" wouldn't do anything. :roll:
Good question! It is probably because you are representative of the typical vs debater.
Ah, what an amazingly relevant response.
Power might be needed to keep the shields assembled, like some kind of magnetic containment or similar magic.
And brilliant analysis, too. So if the power goes out, do the shields magically disperse into nothingness? You propose that they are physical objects; so does this mean that they have a melting and boiling point? Are shields gaseous? That would explain why they magically disappear whenever they are not being held together by this magical magnetic containment field.

But wait; why not use this magical containment field to strengthen, oh, I don't know, durasteel, or Trek steel, instead of shields? Since the latter appear to be so fragile, they immediately disperse (faster than the eye can see!) whenever they are not being held together.
The ICS thing is completely different, it says "peak shielding" which doesn't necessarily mean output at all. In fact, it can mean all kinds of things, the most likely of which aren't what most VS debaters read into it. I talked about this at length in a thread, in this forum, some months ago.
What are you talking about? The unit used is watts, and Saxton also advised the Inside the World of Classic Star Wars, with this:
With its gleaming command walkway and two-meter (seven-feet)-tall transperisteel viewports, the Executer's bridge provides unobstructed views of quarries and kills. The ship's shielding - equivalent to the total power of a medium star - makes such displays of Imperial arrogance possible.
Which was quite obviously one of Saxton's ideas. Power = power output.


This shows that there probably is a relationship, but there's no reason to expect it to be one-to-one (and indeed, that's fucking ridiculous; sunlight would collapse it).
Of course it's ridiculous. After all, we are going by the lowest showings, right? Like SW turbolasers having firepower that compares unfavorably with 18th century ships of the line?

You don't even know what the line's technical context was. Did they measure the shield's response to the sensor ping? Does the shield have a kind of potential energy holding it together? (tho that wouldn't be "output") Does it have idle waste heat that they measured? (if it is waste heat, what was the timeframe of the measuement?)
Wait, why would any of this be immediately followed by the conclusion that a single photon torpedo should be able to defeat it?

And you are again attempting to rationalize a pathetic showing, when the purpose of this thread is to use these showings and compare them to the equally ridiculously low feats of the other side. Otherwise, you can easily rationalize the pathetic firepower of turbolasers displayed in Inferno, for example, and then the topic simply reverts back to SW v ST.
Or was the number more abstract than a direct measurement?
:|

Representative indeed.
Since when do I have to see all of an episode to draw conclusions from a statement? If I actually took something out of context, you may have a point. Otherwise, nice job at completely snipping out my point.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

I wonder if you're understanding what's being said. If you put in 'x amount of power to maintain the shields' that does not neccesarily mean 'shields can withstand ONLY x amount of power.'

Funny enough, Curtis Saxton (EG 'that ICS Guy') has mentioned the same thing
That ICS Guy wrote:Incoming firepower that is absorbed by the shield system must ultimately be re-radiated as waste heat of some kind. If starships are to avoid being melted by energy thermalised by their shields during enemy barrages, then they need two things: internal heat sinks with enormous heat capacities, and an efficient means of eventually removing the heat accumulated in these sinks. In effect, this aspect of the shield system acts like a refrigerator heat-pump, which consumes some power in order to transport and expunge a much larger amount of heat energy.
D13's analogy of a wall is perfectly legitimate too, particularily since matter is mostly empty space and essentially 'force field' (so to speak) interactions keep you from passing through it.

Basically the shields on the base in question may have an 'OUTPUT' of 4.3 kj, but taht doesnt mean they can't absorb more energy than that. They may work as a absorption/reradiation mechanism. Or maybe they're designed to deflect away the majority of the energy whilst absorbing only a small portion of it (like the stereotypical mirror defense against lasers :lol:). Or they may work like 40K void shields, which displace enemy attacks into the warp.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Luke Skywalker »

Uh huh. First, the unit used here is kilojoules, not kilowatts. Second, 4.3 kilojoules couldn't possibly redirect or act as a heat sink for any attack more powerful than a civilian handgun. Absorb "only a small portion of it"? So 'small portion' means less than 0.000000000001% of the energy of the, say, photon torpedo in question?

By this interpretation, Trek's shields could be powered by a man running on a treadmill. I don't see how it is enough energy to do anything to dissipate, say, a tactical nuke.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

And you know how the shield system works.. how, exactly? No seriously, how do you know how a fictional technology works to the point you can declare whether or not a given quantity of energy is 'enough'. I want to know.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Luke Skywalker »

Destructionator XIII wrote: An analogy doesn't immediately lose all integrity the moment it doesn't exactly line up.
The reactor is on, the shield is on. The reactor turns off, the shield instantly disappears. Yes, you have argued that perhaps the output of the shield does not correlate exactly with the amount of energy it can absorb/dissipate, but unless if this difference is literally by six orders of magnitude, it hardly stops the fact that, by the quote in contention, Rambo could have shot it out of the sky.

The label is "peak shielding" in the ICS book.
Now feel free to explain that this is not referring to output when it uses watts as its unit.
You don't know that. And even if you did, the whole point here is that power output is not the same as strength. Even if there is a direct relationship, what's the proportion? Is it linear or follow some other curve?
Maybe they are not the same. Granted, this is a completed unsupported hypothesis that you pulled out of your ass, but I'll admit that it's at least plausible. But unless if this proportion is six orders of magnitude, the Enterprise is going down from a good hit by one of these;

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Again, lowest SHOWING, not lowest retarded shit an idiot can pull out of his ass.


When doing a regular vs, you might list the events, figure out some facts from them, and then rank it from top to bottom. If you take the middle number - the median from statistics - you can have a reasonable idea of capabilities.

Here, instead of taking the median, we're just taking the minimum. But, that doesn't mean we skip the fact aspect!
Yes, the fact is that the shield used to power Central Command has an output less than a wind turbine. There is no conceivable way in which the energy I use to walk up a set of stairs is capable of deflecting/absorbing anything more energetic than a handgun.
BTW a photorp being able to penetrate a kilojoule shield also says nothing about the photorp power, except for maybe a lower limit. Even if we accept your interpretation, it doesn't lead to your conclusion.
If we conclude that Picard and crew are brilliant at concealing disbelief, sure. Data and Picard's responses indicate that the shielding is weak. They do not indicate that the shielding is, say, six orders of magnitude below what they would expect. It would be the equivalent of wishing to buy a light bulb for your living room, and the department store guy telling you that it is only one milli-watt.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Batman »

Luke Skywalker wrote:
Destructionator XIII wrote: An analogy doesn't immediately lose all integrity the moment it doesn't exactly line up.
The reactor is on, the shield is on. The reactor turns off, the shield instantly disappears. Yes, you have argued that perhaps the output of the shield does not correlate exactly with the amount of energy it can absorb/dissipate, but unless if this difference is literally by six orders of magnitude,
Which you know not to be the case because of...? Again, there's no reason to assume the power output of the shield has any direct correlation-linear, logarithmic or otherwise-with it's defensive capabilities (the damn 'walls need no power' thing again) given we have no fucking clue how the damn things work.
it hardly stops the fact that, by the quote in contention, Rambo could have shot it out of the sky.
That's not a fact, that's an assumption.
The label is "peak shielding" in the ICS book.
Now feel free to explain that this is not referring to output when it uses watts as its unit.
Well for starters there's the little factoid that the output of the shields generators is moderately irrelevant, the point of interest is shield resilience, which absolutely can be described in watts (if not all that accurately),or it may refer to the rate they can get rid of the energy absorbed by the shields.
You don't know that. And even if you did, the whole point here is that power output is not the same as strength. Even if there is a direct relationship, what's the proportion? Is it linear or follow some other curve?
Maybe they are not the same. Granted, this is a completed unsupported hypothesis that you pulled out of your ass
No, that's actually what you did, you blithely assumed a KJ output shield would have KJ resilience after having been presented with examples of no power draw whatsoever (i.e. armour) easily withstanding MJ attacks. Onus to show that there's any connection between power output and shield resilience is on you.
, but I'll admit that it's at least plausible. But unless if this proportion is six orders of magnitude, the Enterprise is going down from a good hit by one of these;
And you know that it isn't because?
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Batman »

(BTW the ICS shielding numbers indicate that an ISD can be taken down by median measuement photon torpedoes
Really. Because going by the Episode II ICS's figure of 7E22W for the Acclamator (which is a glorified troop transport, not a real fighting ship) I get a rate of roughly 2.6 million+ unsupported by anything all of the yield delivered 64MT photon torpedoes per second to wear her shields down.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Depends on what the shield figure represents. If it's input then that's technically right I remmeber Curtis describing the enegy input of the shields vs turboalsers being the wattage figure divided by the 'time' value of turbolasers (which generally was assumed to be 1/8-1/15th a second as 'onscreen'.) So for 2e23 watts you actually need only 1.3e22 joules or something like that. If it's the dissipation rate (for the magic radiators) then that doesn't work though. We don't really know which it is.

In any case it doesn't tell us any other figure for the shield process (heat sink, the transition from one system to another - like from shields into the sink or from the sink to the radiators, etc.)
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Luke Skywalker »

Upon further thought, there is clearly a difference between the energy capacity of a shield and its "output". Of course, why this output is measured in joules, I have no clue.
Batman

Which you know not to be the case because of...? Again, there's no reason to assume the power output of the shield has any direct correlation-linear, logarithmic or otherwise-with it's defensive capabilities (the damn 'walls need no power' thing again) given we have no fucking clue how the damn things work.


...

Well for starters there's the little factoid that the output of the shields generators is moderately irrelevant, the point of interest is shield resilience, which absolutely can be described in watts (if not all that accurately),or it may refer to the rate they can get rid of the energy absorbed by the shields.
This is false. Data quantifies the output of the shields, and Picard uses that information to draw the conclusion that a single photon torpedo should be enough to penetrate it. Surely, "output" does not connote, for example waste heat, because then a low output could simply mean that the shield is highly energy efficient.

So either way, there has to be a correlation between the "output" of a shield and its strength. But I will admit that I have no idea what the ratio is.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Luke Skywalker wrote:Upon further thought, there is clearly a difference between the energy capacity of a shield and its "output". Of course, why this output is measured in joules, I have no clue.
Because energy does not disappear into thin air? If you put energy into a shield, it has to translate into work of some kind and/or waste heat (inefficiencies, etc.) This is actually one of the biggest arguments for shields 'outputs' not correlating to their defensive properties. There are very few ways to justify enormous quantities of energy being dumped into shields.

And even when you can justify huge expenditures of energy into defenses, that doesn't mean it will neccesarily be a constant drain (again if the shield draws huge amounts of power, it will only draw as much as the work it must do requires. In that sense dumping massive amounts of power into your defenses at a steady state is both stupid and wasteful: instead you would have a battery or capacitor of 'shield energy', which the shields would draw on ot do whatever work they need to do and which can be replenished by the ship's power core as needed. And if you're talking in terms of storage, treating your shield 'output' as energy rather than power can make sense.

This is false. Data quantifies the output of the shields, and Picard uses that information to draw the conclusion that a single photon torpedo should be enough to penetrate it. Surely, "output" does not connote, for example waste heat, because then a low output could simply mean that the shield is highly energy efficient.

So either way, there has to be a correlation between the "output" of a shield and its strength. But I will admit that I have no idea what the ratio is.
While ST tech cna have individual differences, much of their technologies are broadly similar, and if they can identify the kind of shield used and figure out its output, they should be able to figure out its defensive properties. After all I'm pretty sure they were able to divine their offensive capabilities as well and be able to deem they were no threat.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Luke Skywalker »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because energy does not disappear into thin air? If you put energy into a shield, it has to translate into work of some kind and/or waste heat (inefficiencies, etc.) This is actually one of the biggest arguments for shields 'outputs' not correlating to their defensive properties. There are very few ways to justify enormous quantities of energy being dumped into shields.
Right. And I'd imagine that the ability to constantly do this would be expressed in watts, not joules. EDIT: yes, I see below...
And even when you can justify huge expenditures of energy into defenses, that doesn't mean it will neccesarily be a constant drain (again if the shield draws huge amounts of power, it will only draw as much as the work it must do requires. In that sense dumping massive amounts of power into your defenses at a steady state is both stupid and wasteful: instead you would have a battery or capacitor of 'shield energy', which the shields would draw on ot do whatever work they need to do and which can be replenished by the ship's power core as needed. And if you're talking in terms of storage, treating your shield 'output' as energy rather than power can make sense.
If that is the case, then how did the protagonists draw any conclusions from the output of the station's shields? How is output indicative of storage capacity? It hardly seems like the right word for it. I'd imagine that your theory is essentially the "hit point" idea; that the shields draw upon a reservoir of energy that they use to dissipate hostile fire. But this would not explain how they can transfer more power to the shields, given that it's apparently different from repairing the shields.

And a "storage" of 4.3 kilojoules is less than that of a human baby. So Commander Shepard fires a pistol at the Enterprise, which promptly uses up all of its energy storage to stop it, and then the bullet still keeps on going.


While ST tech cna have individual differences, much of their technologies are broadly similar, and if they can identify the kind of shield used and figure out its output, they should be able to figure out its defensive properties.
I suppose that this could be true, but no matter how you attempt to rationalize it, the quote is inherently ridiculous. How do they extrapolate the shield's defensive properties from its "output"? Does output merely imply waste heat, since I wouldn't imagine that shields are supposed to give off heat?
After all I'm pretty sure they were able to divine their offensive capabilities as well and be able to deem they were no threat.
Well, the amount of photon torpedos needed to breach the station's shields is unaffected by its weaponry.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Luke Skywalker wrote:Right. And I'd imagine that the ability to constantly do this would be expressed in watts, not joules. EDIT: yes, I see below...
I'm talking about the input of energy required to maintain the shields, not the defensive capability of the shields themselves.
If that is the case, then how did the protagonists draw any conclusions from the output of the station's shields?
By drawing inferences from sensors. you really don't think sensors are so completely and utterly magical that they instantly divine 100% accurate information and give it to the user, do you? The fact tey could make any sort of prediction from the sensor data they obtain requires them to have some familiarity with the tech to begin with.

Alterntely, they had data provided to them by the people who were manipulating them. I'm pretty sure they would have knowledge abou ttheir enemy's capabilities.
How is output indicative of storage capacity? It hardly seems like the right word for it. I'd imagine that your theory is essentially the "hit point" idea; that the shields draw upon a reservoir of energy that they use to dissipate hostile fire. But this would not explain how they can transfer more power to the shields, given that it's apparently different from repairing the shield.
by the definition of output
link wrote:d : power or energy produced or delivered by a machine or system (as for storage or for conversion in kind or in characteristics) <generator output> <solar X-ray output>
And a "storage" of 4.3 kilojoules is less than that of a human baby. So Commander Shepard fires a pistol at the Enterprise, which promptly uses up all of its energy storage to stop it, and then the bullet still keeps on going.
Again how the hell do you know how the shields work to stop attacks, much less how much energy is involved in doing so.

More to the point, what the hell kind of justification to you have that shields must do massive amounts of work to be effective? Case in point: We know the theatre shield in TESB was 'strong neough to deflect any bombardment' - yet the shield itself had no illict effects on the enviroment (or people under it, for that matter. ) CAre to explain that, since your logic is the output to maintain the shield should apparently correspond to the magnitude of the firepower its meant to deal with.
I suppose that this could be true, but no matter how you attempt to rationalize it, the quote is inherently ridiculous. How do they extrapolate the shield's defensive properties from its "output"? Does output merely imply waste heat, since I wouldn't imagine that shields are supposed to give off heat?
How is it 'ridiculous?' if they know how the shield technology works, and they know the output precisely, then they can probably extrapolate the characteristics and limitations of the defensive technology. It doesn't even need to be a 100% accurate prediction, depending on circumstances.
Well, the amount of photon torpedos needed to breach the station's shields is unaffected by its weaponry.
Uh, they were able to tell their offensive capabilities fairly well from sensor data. EG the 2.1 MJ disruptors on attack ships.

BTW has it occured to you that by your logic, those 4.3 KJ shields should be completely unable to stand off a single attack ship? Why would they need the enterprise.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by seanrobertson »

Connor MacLeod wrote: BTW has it occured to you that by your logic, those 4.3 KJ shields should be completely unable to stand off a single attack ship? Why would they need the enterprise.
FWIW, I hinted at that in one of my last posts (how did I put it? "2.1 MJ disruptors, anyone?"). We're told Satarran and Lysian technology is roughly comparable. Even if we assume a Satarran destroyer has a tenth the firepower of its Lysian counterpart, those are still 200 kilojoule disruptors, yes? How many times does 4.3 fit into 200? :D Were it that simple, it'd simply be a matter of the Satarrans getting a destroyer close enough to fire on Lysian HQ.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

seanrobertson wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote: BTW has it occured to you that by your logic, those 4.3 KJ shields should be completely unable to stand off a single attack ship? Why would they need the enterprise.
FWIW, I hinted at that in one of my last posts (how did I put it? "2.1 MJ disruptors, anyone?"). We're told Satarran and Lysian technology is roughly comparable. Even if we assume a Satarran destroyer has a tenth the firepower of its Lysian counterpart, those are still 200 kilojoule disruptors, yes? How many times does 4.3 fit into 200? :D Were it that simple, it'd simply be a matter of the Satarrans getting a destroyer close enough to fire on Lysian HQ.
It's not that simple. 2 MJ disruptors might overwhelm the shield, but they'll need something more powerful to take out that place. It's enormous.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by seanrobertson »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
seanrobertson wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote: BTW has it occured to you that by your logic, those 4.3 KJ shields should be completely unable to stand off a single attack ship? Why would they need the enterprise.
FWIW, I hinted at that in one of my last posts (how did I put it? "2.1 MJ disruptors, anyone?"). We're told Satarran and Lysian technology is roughly comparable. Even if we assume a Satarran destroyer has a tenth the firepower of its Lysian counterpart, those are still 200 kilojoule disruptors, yes? How many times does 4.3 fit into 200? :D Were it that simple, it'd simply be a matter of the Satarrans getting a destroyer close enough to fire on Lysian HQ.
It's not that simple. 2 MJ disruptors might overwhelm the shield, but they'll need something more powerful to take out that place. It's enormous.
Why does that sound familiar? :lol:
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by Batman »

Given the utter uselessness of a 4.3KJ resilience shield, one wonders why they would bother with it. Just putting on the shield system's mass in additional armour would probably be more effective than that.
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Re: Federation versus Empire (with the worst showings)

Post by the atom »

Perhaps it's a radiation shield of some sort as opposed to a defensive grid. It makes a little more sense then a shield that's totally incapable of surviving a hit from a weapon a 1000x weaker then their own conventional weapons.
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