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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-20 03:55pm
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Quote:
I'm going to be brutally honest here, and say straight up that you're an idiot for presenting things from Robert Scott Anderson's site, as the man is known to be a liar and spin-doctor, who is obsessed with the STvsSW debate to the point of arguing about canon with the people who decide canon for SW and ST!

Just took the first fitting link out of google. Seem to have been a 100%, judging from your reaction.

Quote:
And the video was of no use, as it's resolution was so poor that, I, at the very least, could draw very little conclusion from the clip. It also provides no evidence to show that the S8472 bioships are several orders of magnitude more powerful than the Death Star.

Let me think. Planet blown to pieces and planet turned mostly to gas + vaporising 3*3*3 km ships several thousend kilometers away.

Quote:
Completely Missing the Point

Link not working...
Quote:
More to the point in a vs debate, we have no idea how they'd react/respond to, say, SW turbolasers or 40K lance batteries.

But pulling numbers out of dark places makes things comparable? Seriously I do not get that logic.

Quote:
Just thought I'd point out that space is a good insulator because it's a vacuum, and that space itself has no temperature. Objects in space, are however, quite cold themselves........well, depending on the object. A ship is obviously quite a bit hotter than a piece of dust.

Whats your point? The stuff I wrote is a simple fact. Consult a book of thermodynamics of your trust. In space there is only radiation to emmit energy. Thats quite a bad form, because the factor (Boltzmann) of 5.87*10^-8. Objects in space are mostly cold, because well, they do not tend to have any source of energy.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-20 04:17pm
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Mercenario wrote:
Just took the first fitting link out of google. Seem to have been a 100%, judging from your reaction.


Excuse me? TBH, I haven't got a god damn clue what you're saying here. Because around this board, Darkstar, the common Internet handle that RSA goes by, is known to be a fucking liar. As a result, every god damn thing on his website is fucking suspect!

Mercenario wrote:
Let me think. Planet blown to pieces and planet turned mostly to gas + vaporising 3*3*3 km ships several thousend kilometers away.


Let me put it this way: we have no evidence that the S8472 event was a direct-energy transfer. While we have little evidence that the event was a chain reaction, it's also something we have a slight amount of. So instead of being a case of "shoot planet with laser, watch planet go boom", it's "shoot planet with magic beam which does [technobabble] and creates vaporized, exploding planet".

I'll also note that turning the planet mostly to gas is completely unsubstantiated; while there seems to be some gas, there is still debris. However, the biggest point against this is that phasers, a common weapon used in Star Trek, to the point that 99% of all species seem to have developed some kind of variation on the design, are very similar, and are known to be some kind of chain reaction weapon which does not vaporize.

I'll ONCE AGAIN note that the Borg cubes were NOT vaporized, but were instead struck by GODDAMN DEBRIS.

Mercenario wrote:
Link not working...


Besides the point, as the link actually had no bearing on the discussion and was more a comedic note of your continued habit of COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT.

OTOH, I would be quite grateful if a mod were to fix the link to point to the appropriate TV Tropes page.

Mercenario wrote:
But pulling numbers out of dark places makes things comparable? Seriously I do not get that logic.


For one, I didn't pull any numbers out, I was simply illustrating the point that not all energy weapons are the same, and so how '8472 reacts to Borg DEW isn't necessarily the same way they'd react to, say, the Empire's DEWs.

I'll further note that you evidently don't understand basic science, or else you'd realize the logic and simple physics that are used to analyze the feats of both SW and ST.

Mercenario wrote:
Whats your point? The stuff I wrote is a simple fact. Consult a book of thermodynamics of your trust. In space there is only radiation to emmit energy. Thats quite a bad form, because the factor (Boltzmann) of 5.87*10^-8. Objects in space are mostly cold, because well, they do not tend to have any source of energy.


If you had better reading comprehension and weren't an idiot you'd realize that what I was disputing was your ridiculous claim that the vacuum of space is COLD. It's a fucking vacuum, it can't have a temperature! I never said that there were other ways to get rid of heat in space, and I never said anything about why the average astronomical object is cold. I simply noted that said objects tend to be very cold, and that space itself, being a vacuum, has no temperature.

It's called reading. You should try it some time.



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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-20 10:17pm
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Mercenario wrote:
Yes.
So there are two options?
First: It takes as long to recover from a high power shot as it takes from a low power shot.
Second: The planet was not destroyed by brute force.


Why should I accept your assertion that there are only two answers, rather than treating it as the false dilemma fallacy that it appears to be?

Quote:
Yes, it will. If the recharge rate is about a day, you do not have to take cover, because it won't refire.
So to stay consistant I would go the way of saying there is some mojo to make it blow up planets and to reload this mojo takes around a day. (Would not have any impact on lesser shots, which could be fired at any rate you need for the story)


What the hell does any of this have to do with what I am saying? I made no mention of a day long recharge rate, or anything even pertaining to that. Frankly, it seems like we're talking about two completely different things, for whatever reason.

Quote:
I do not think my english is the problem, since you tend to understand my sentences quite well.
I have to admit, that my point is quite hard to grasp since it is quite a meta topic of the VS debate.


I don't give a flying fuck about vs debating anymore. Vs debating is intellectually poisonous.

Quote:
But the essance is quite an easy one: Sifi TV shows tend to be drawn to higher and higher power levels.
The best example here is StarGate. Started out with a punch of guys with MPs shooting up a bunch of guys looking like big iron snakes.
Ended up with a bunch of guys having ships arguably far superior to StarWars and StarTrek.
In StarTrek you find this mostly in Voyager. Started with a little ship lost in space. (Well, they had to take back some travel time from the movies, but was a nice concept) ended with a little ship having the punch to blow up borg cubes or even planets in the end.)

StarWars on the other hand is mainly based on the six films. So due to amount of material it is quite likely you find everything in StarWars also in StarTrek. If you are looking for on screen evidence.

This leads to my question why there is any merit in trying to establish the superiority of StarWars by holding up some numbers from calculations based on stuff which is mostly down in StarTrek too.
This had some merit if you looked at TOS, granted.


In other words, we ARE talking about cross purposes. You apparently approach it from a method that I find to be, frankly, inconsistent and to be blunt full of shit. I'm sure you feel the same way about any approach I have, and you're entitled to that opinion, but in that case further debate is meaningless because we can't resolve it. The two approaches are fundamentally incompatible.



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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-21 08:15am
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Excuse me? TBH, I haven't got a god damn clue what you're saying here. Because around this board, Darkstar, the common Internet handle that RSA goes by, is known to be a fucking liar. As a result, every god damn thing on his website is fucking suspect!

My guess: He would say the same about this side.
Quote:
I'll ONCE AGAIN note that the Borg cubes were NOT vaporized, but were instead struck by GODDAMN DEBRIS.

Yes, but as you have to know the cube which was shown to be hit by some debris survived and the explosion took part much later.
And it does not change much, because the debris still woul need the energy to do that kind of damage in a huge area.

Quote:
So instead of being a case of "shoot planet with laser, watch planet go boom", it's "shoot planet with magic beam which does [technobabble] and creates vaporized, exploding planet".

There was no technobabble.
Quote:
For one, I didn't pull any numbers out, I was simply illustrating the point that not all energy weapons are the same, and so how '8472 reacts to Borg DEW isn't necessarily the same way they'd react to, say, the Empire's DEWs.

We have as many clues on how the death star works as we have clues about the weapons of 8472.
Quote:
I never said that there were other ways to get rid of heat in space, and I never said anything about why the average astronomical object is cold. I simply noted that said objects tend to be very cold, and that space itself, being a vacuum, has no temperature.

This forum, does not allow edits, so I could not add the part about what I meant with cold. If you do the calculation for energy transfer based on radiation you compare the objects surface to the background, which is mostly set to 0K.
That I did not mean the surrounding was quite clear (I thought), since I have been talking about radiation. The temperature of the surrounding is interesting for other ways of heat transfer. (Which I said are unusable in space)

Quote:
I'll further note that you evidently don't understand basic science, or else you'd realize the logic and simple physics that are used to analyze the feats of both SW and ST.

They are all based on assumptions. Made to go one way or the other. Since those assumptions are quite cherry picked...
I mean our discussion about the weapon 8472 used shows this quite clear. You have to insist on some "magic reaction" because otherwise you would not like the results.
So please, do not try to hide behind physics if they have nothing to do with it at all.

@Connor MacLeod
Quote:
Why should I accept your assertion that there are only two answers, rather than treating it as the false dilemma fallacy that it appears to be?

I had a third one, but you did to approve. So I was left with those.
There are not many options to start with:
1. The main weapon is limited by energy supply.
2. The main weapon is limited by cooling/reloading.
3. The main weapon has different operation modes.

Every one of those leads to different conclusions. The frist two can actually lead to the same conclusions.

Quote:
You apparently approach it from a method that I find to be, frankly, inconsistent and to be blunt full of shit.

What a great feat of argumentation.
Quote:
I'm sure you feel the same way about any approach I have

No, I do not. Has less to do with your approach than with my way of thinking.

But anyhow I would not describe the things I have written as an approach. It is more a hint on why I do not understand someone would go with the approach taken here.

A simple real life example would be to compare the war in Iraq with the WW2. The firepower displayed in WW2 was "bigger". (Alone due to the use of atom bombs)
But nobody would arguee, that the technology during WW2 was better than today.
The same is true for any kind of SiFi series. But here you not only dealing with the problem of "not showing the full potential" but also of "showing stuff which does not fit into the rest of the setting or is just utter bullshit". Second of all you are left with the problem, that the means by which the shown is achieved are mostly left in the dark.
So if you want to compare technology you would need a look at stuff regulary used and shown.
Comunication devices, computers, monitors/hologramms, AIs, robots etc.
This is one of those things, which just has to work. They are the core of canon in any book/film used by any author.
So you eliminate the problems the single author might have with physics or the understanding of the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-21 09:08am
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A blatant liar and likely troll wrote:
We have as many clues on how the death star works as we have clues about the weapons of 8472.

Bull and shit.

We have little to no clue about how S8472's planet killer works, beyond what we saw in one single episode of Voyager.

We have a wealth of not just clues, but information on how the Death Star Superlaser works.
Check this shit out...
Image
:shock: Wow! Fucking blueprints and everything!

There's been an entire novel about the constuction and workings of the DS (funnily enough, it was called Death Star), facts given in the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology (and the later New EGWT) along with information from many other sources including (but not limited to):
The Power of the Force (1995)
Rebellion: Prima's Official Strategy Guide
Behind the Magic
Death Star Designer
Inside the Worlds of Star Wars: Attack of the Clones
The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide
The Unknown Regions
Battlefront II
The Illustrated Star Wars Universe
Episode IV: A New Hope
(novelisation)

Your dishonesty aside, what you were supposedly responding to was this:
Whiskey144 wrote:
For one, I didn't pull any numbers out, I was simply illustrating the point that not all energy weapons are the same, and so how '8472 reacts to Borg DEW isn't necessarily the same way they'd react to, say, the Empire's DEWs.
Once again, demonstrating your talent at Completely Missing The Point.



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-21 10:04am
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@Darth Tedious
Yeah, a blue print is explaining the physical details. Ahm, no.
So yeah, all we know about the deathstar is:
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/death-star4.htm
Several big lasers focues into one laser, but not acting like a Laser power by a fusion reactor with the energy output of a small sun.
(Seems fitting since stars are fusion reactors and fusion technologie is used all over star wars)
Further it has a reloading time (planet blast) of around 24 hours.

Bioships:
Focusing the energy of 8 bioships by using a bit bigger one as focus.
So yes, we lack the power source of the bioships and their reloading time. And?

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-21 10:51am
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The Death Star's Superlaser derives power directly from the hypermatter reactor.

Mercenario wrote:
Several big lasers focues into one laser, but not acting like a Laser power by a fusion reactor with the energy output of a small sun.
(Seems fitting since stars are fusion reactors and fusion technologie is used all over star wars)
Firstly, you might want to read your own sources. The DS's power comes from a hypermatter reactor, not fusion.

Secondly, if you're going to use non-canon sources, you'd be better off with Wookieepedia, which has a fuckton more information and is actually sourced and referenced.

Thirdly, you're full of shit. You claim that all we know about the DS is what howstuffworks.com has to say about it. I listed thirteen different canonical sources of information in my last post.

Destructionator XIII wrote:
You've gotta look at what he actually said and see if he was right here. If he's wrong, just say why, it shouldn't be hard to find a reason.
It isn't terribly hard.
The power calcs were based on dialogue stating Chakotay's expectation that the entire asteroid (which they thought to be Nickel-Iron) should have been vapourised. The same scene featured a contradictory statement from Kim (who was manning the sensors) saying that the asteroid should have been fragmented.
Not that it hasn't been pointed out before.
Though, I'd agree with you DXIII- just dismissing Darkstar's point because he made it is a little rash. It would have been better for Whiskey144 to point out that the page had already been debunked (around 9 years ago).



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-21 11:51am
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Mercenario wrote:
My guess: He would say the same about this side.


Of course he would; to him, everything that disagrees with him is a "Warsie conspiracy". OTOH, even proponents of the side he supports have acknowledged that he is a liar and dishonest debater.

Darth Tedious wrote:
Once again, demonstrating your talent at Completely Missing The Point.


I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The part you quoted was meant to illustrate that just because Borg weapons are ineffective against S8472 bioships, that doesn't mean we can rule all DEW to be useless against said craft.

If you could perhaps explain why you said this, I would greatly appreciate that.

Destructionator XIII wrote:
LOL, could you post a more blatent ad hominem dismissal?

Idiots and liars are sometimes right too. You've gotta look at what he actually said and see if he was right here. If he's wrong, just say why, it shouldn't be hard to find a reason.


Look, my point with saying that is you can't trust anything Darkstar says because of his history with debating. I wasn't saying "that source is useless". I was saying it can't be trusted.

I also rather make a point to not read Darkstar's site, because I don't want to take the chance that I might be sucked in to his logic.



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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-21 12:46pm
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W144: I wasn't actually replying to what you had said, I was referring to Mercenario's ability to completely miss the point.

And you're probably right, reading Darkstar's shit is liable to cause mild brain damage.
In general, the main problem with people bringing up his arguments here is that they have already been ripped to shreds repeatedly. In ancient SD.net history.



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-21 03:44pm
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Darth Tedious wrote:
It isn't terribly hard.
The power calcs were based on dialogue stating Chakotay's expectation that the entire asteroid (which they thought to be Nickel-Iron) should have been vapourised. The same scene featured a contradictory statement from Kim (who was manning the sensors) saying that the asteroid should have been fragmented.


As you point out Chakotay did say that the torp should have vaporised the entire asteroid and that means that they had scanned its size ect and set the yield of the torpedo to have that effect and due to that we cannot assume the torpedoes were set to full power.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-21 04:30pm
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Lord Helmet wrote:
Darth Tedious wrote:
It isn't terribly hard.
The power calcs were based on dialogue stating Chakotay's expectation that the entire asteroid (which they thought to be Nickel-Iron) should have been vapourised. The same scene featured a contradictory statement from Kim (who was manning the sensors) saying that the asteroid should have been fragmented.


As you point out Chakotay did say that the torp should have vaporised the entire asteroid and that means that they had scanned its size ect and set the yield of the torpedo to have that effect and due to that we cannot assume the torpedoes were set to full power.


Did we ever actually see this asteroid get nuked? If not, this could be another blow up a small planet reference.



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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-21 04:53pm
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@Darth Tedious
Quote:
Little is actually known about the details of the highly classified reactor design, but we do know that it is a massive fusion reactor fed by stellar fuel bottles that line the periphery of the main reactor chamber.

Mhm, fusion you see. Hypermatter does say as much as sliberischbisch. Nothing. So no information there. Fusion, well tells us something about the process.
(Yeah, I know hypermatter is important because you may ignore any rule of physics that way. The same with StarTrek using some kind of Antimatter nobody has heard about in real physics so they do not need make any calculation of energy or bring in all kind of story hooks.)


@Norade
Yes, we did.

@Whiskey144
Quote:
I also rather make a point to not read Darkstar's site, because I don't want to take the chance that I might be sucked in to his logic.

THAT sounds like fanatism (mixed in with an inferiority complex) to me. Holy crap. I really hope you were making fun here.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-21 06:34pm
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Darth Tedious wrote:
W144: I wasn't actually replying to what you had said, I was referring to Mercenario's ability to completely miss the point.


Ah.

Mercenario wrote:
Mhm, fusion you see. Hypermatter does say as much as sliberischbisch. Nothing. So no information there. Fusion, well tells us something about the process.


First off, PROVIDE A SOURCE for your quote. Otherwise, I think it's safe to assume that you just MADE SHIT UP.

Mercenario wrote:
THAT sounds like fanatism (mixed in with an inferiority complex) to me. Holy crap. I really hope you were making fun here.


Not, it's just that Darkstar can cloak lies and illogical concepts in such reasonable and logical words, that it's really easy to think "hey, he might be right", when he's saying the most shit-stupid things. I know, too; I stumbled upon his site before knowing who he was and that it was indeed his site, and thought some of the arguments were quite reasonable.......until I found out who he was and learned that everything he says is suspect.

Keep in mind, that Darkstar is the debater who is considered dishonest by both sides of the SW/ST versus debate. And:

Darth Tedious wrote:
In general, the main problem with people bringing up his arguments here is that they have already been ripped to shreds repeatedly. In ancient SD.net history.


Darkstar's arguments have been already been defeated so soundly and repeatedly that you're not beating the dead horse anymore. You're munching on the tattered remnants of its corpse.



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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-21 07:38pm
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Quote:
Yes, we did.


Episode name, and frame of reference for the size of the rock.



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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-21 10:24pm
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Norade wrote:
Episode name, and frame of reference for the size of the rock.
VOY:'Rise'
Darkstar calculated the size of the rock based on scaling compared to the photon torpedo, which he estimated was 10 meters in diameter. :roll:



Lord Helmet wrote:
Darth Tedious wrote:
It isn't terribly hard.
The power calcs were based on dialogue stating Chakotay's expectation that the entire asteroid (which they thought to be Nickel-Iron) should have been vapourised. The same scene featured a contradictory statement from Kim (who was manning the sensors) saying that the asteroid should have been fragmented.


As you point out Chakotay did say that the torp should have vaporised the entire asteroid and that means that they had scanned its size ect and set the yield of the torpedo to have that effect and due to that we cannot assume the torpedoes were set to full power.
Did you read what you quoted me as saying? Kim was the one who scanned the asteroid, and he expected fragmentation (into much smaller pieces than were observed). Chakotay eyeballed it, and thought it would be vapourised.



Mercenario wrote:
An unnamed source wrote:
Little is actually known about the details of the highly classified reactor design, but we do know that it is a massive fusion reactor fed by stellar fuel bottles that line the periphery of the main reactor chamber.
Mhm, fusion you see. Hypermatter does say as much as sliberischbisch. Nothing. So no information there. Fusion, well tells us something about the process.
Source? See, if you're going to provide a quote, you need to source it.
Like this:
Death Star, page 22 wrote:
The greatest challenge in designing the battle station, he had said, was not creating a beam cannon big enough to destroy a planet, nor was it building
a moon-sized station that would be driven by a Class Three hyperdrive. The greatest challenge was powering both of them. There must be tradeoffs, he had said. In order to mount a weapon of mundicidal means, shielding capabilities would have to be downgraded to a rudimentary level.
Power, Bevel had said, was not infinite, even on a station this size, fueled by the largest hypermatter reactor ever built.
Now, even if we assume your quote was from a canon source, it is pretty worthless. It is written from the point of view of someone who knew fuck all about the DS's reactor.



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-21 11:12pm
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What in Valen's name is a 'stellar fuel bottle'?



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
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'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-22 12:48am
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Batman wrote:
What in Valen's name is a 'stellar fuel bottle'?

They have been canonically mentioned (in the ICS, IIRC), with no description or detailed information given.



Found a source for Mercenario's mystery quote!

It's from howstuffworks.com
Howstuffworks.com wrote:
The hypermatter reactor is the heart of the Death Star. The Death Star's hypermatter core is based largely on early Sienar Systems hypermatter implosion core that was the power source of the Confederacy of Independent Systems' Great Weapon (the early inspiration for the Death Star -- more on this later). Little is actually known about the details of the highly classified reactor design, but we do know that it is a massive fusion reactor fed by stellar fuel bottles that line the periphery of the main reactor chamber.
Note that he only quoted the second half of the paragraph.

Mercenario, cherry-picking quotes from non-canon sources is one thing.
When the same source states that which you are trying to disprove, you show yourself to be a completely dishonest piece of shit perfoming little more than an exercise in trolling.

The Death Star is powered by a hypermatter reactor. Concede the point or fuck off.



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-22 02:34am
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Darth Tedious wrote:
Did you read what you quoted me as saying? Kim was the one who scanned the asteroid, and he expected fragmentation (into much smaller pieces than were observed). Chakotay eyeballed it, and thought it would be vapourised.


They/Kim scanned the roid, they/he would have then reported/sent the findings ect to Tuvok and Tuvok would have set the yield of the torp appropriately. Chakotay's comment is pretty typical for most of the situations it is used in accross all sci-fi and even non-sci-fi considering that "vapourised" virtually never means vapourised in as factual sense.

The fact is that we cannot say for sure and it is actually very unlikely considering how things are done that the torp was set to max.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-22 02:59am
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Lord Helmet wrote:
Darth Tedious wrote:
Did you read what you quoted me as saying? Kim was the one who scanned the asteroid, and he expected fragmentation (into much smaller pieces than were observed). Chakotay eyeballed it, and thought it would be vapourised.


They/Kim scanned the roid, they/he would have then reported/sent the findings ect to Tuvok and Tuvok would have set the yield of the torp appropriately. Chakotay's comment is pretty typical for most of the situations it is used in accross all sci-fi and even non-sci-fi considering that "vapourised" virtually never means vapourised in as factual sense.

The fact is that we cannot say for sure and it is actually very unlikely considering how things are done that the torp was set to max.


Bullshit. We've seen torpedo hits in other cases that were nowhere near that powerful and the maximum yield they could fit by volume and known warhead material isn't all that high.



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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-22 07:00am
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@Whiskey144
Quote:
First off, PROVIDE A SOURCE for your quote. Otherwise, I think it's safe to assume that you just MADE SHIT UP.

The QUOTE WAS ABOVE this sentance.

@Darth Tedious
Quote:
Mercenario, cherry-picking quotes from non-canon sources is one thing.

Yeah.
Darth Tedious:Mercenario show me were it says fusion based.
*Mercenario brings the quote.*
Darth Tedious: You are cherry picking.
Mercenario: ???
Honestly, of course I did only quote as less as possible and as close to the question you asked as possible.
Mercenario wrote:
Several big lasers focues into one laser, but not acting like a Laser power by a fusion reactor with the energy output of a small sun.

Darth Tedious wrote:
Firstly, you might want to read your own sources. The DS's power comes from a hypermatter reactor, not fusion. *several insults followed*

I was only arguing the fusion part. I never said anything about what kind of atoms they combine in the first place. So I brought you the quote telling it is some kind of fusion. So yes, your hypermatter is not wrong, just your "not fusion".

Quote:
The Death Star is powered by a hypermatter reactor. Concede the point or fuck off.

And you are able to tell me, what Hypermatter is? (Not that it would really matter, because the type of reaction used allready gives the mass/energy output)

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-22 07:58am
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A fucktard wrote:
Darth Tedious:Mercenario show me were it says fusion based.
*Mercenario brings the quote.*
Darth Tedious: You are cherry picking.
Mercenario: ???
Actually, my response was:
I wrote:
Mercenario, cherry-picking quotes from non-canon sources is one thing.
But good job cherry-picking my words there, too. Nice to know we can rely on your ability to miss a point so badly you'll quote half a sentence, when the other half contained the salient point.

Provide a reference from a canonical source to show the DS uses fusion as its power source.

Also note: I never asked you to show that the DS is fusion based- I had simply called you on your bullshit claim that there was as little information about the DS as there is about S8472. Of course, anyone who can read can see that on pages 9-10 of this very thread.

Someone too lazy to do their own research wrote:
And you are able to tell me, what Hypermatter is?

Death Star, page 153-154 wrote:
He knew that hypermatter existed only in hyperspace, that it was composed of tachyonic particles, and that charged tachyons, when constrained by the lower dimensions of realspace, produced near-limitless energy.
Produces energy simply be being introduced into realspace! I can see why they need fusion on top of that... oh, wait... no they don't.

Because you're a fucking idiot, I'll say it a second time:

Provide a reference from a canonical source to show the DS uses fusion as its power source.



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-22 08:43am
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@Darth Tedious
Quote:
I never asked you to show that the DS is fusion based-

You just called me a lair for telling so.

And you know as well as I do, that there are several contradicting canonical sources.
I mean if you go for the novels refering to the films you will end up with:

ANH wrote:
"the liberated energy of a small artificial sun"

Well, I guess we both know that the phrase artificial sun means fusion reactor.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-22 08:55am
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OK, could someone please do an IP check on Merc here and make sure it isn't just another Darthy sock-puppet?

Quote:
Well, I guess we both know that the phrase artificial sun means fusion reactor.

No, it means the energy output equivalent of a small, artificial sun, not more not less.

Quote:
Or what is a tachyonic particle?

Really, man, what's exactly your point here? "Star Wars uses a fictional method of energy production and therefore all numbers are wrong"? That's what I gather from your JasonB style word vomit.



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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-22 09:12am
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I am aware of the phrase used in the ANH novelisation. It does not imply that the DS's power source was a fusion reactor, nor does it contradict what is stated in Death Star.

The Episode II ICS explains that all hypermatter annihilation chambers use a fusion reaction as a method of containment. Thus, there is no contradiction- a small artificial star actually was released when the DS was destroyed. It wasn't the power source.

Note the wording I used:
Quote:
Provide a reference from a canonical source to show the DS uses fusion as its power source.

The DS does not use fusion reaction as a power source, but as containment for a much greater one. In honesty, I did string you along there to see what train wreck of an argument you'd pull from your arse this time. Thanks for playing. Feel free to concede the point whenever you like.

Taking a step back, all this was brought up when I called you on your false claim that there is as little information about the DS as there is about S8472. Care to concede that point?


Metahive wrote:
OK, could someone please do an IP check on Merc here and make sure it isn't just another Darthy sock-puppet?
That thought occurred to me also...



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech? PostPosted: 2011-06-22 09:45am
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@Darth Tedious
Quote:
Taking a step back, all this was brought up when I called you on your false claim that there is as little information about the DS as there is about S8472. Care to concede that point?

Yes, I elaborated a bit. But still you have shown no physical basis on how the death star is supposed to work.
(Which is as much as there is for S8472)

@Metahive
Quote:
No, it means the energy output equivalent of a small, artificial sun, not more not less.

Well, good. So we have at least the numbers for the energy output, since we know how much energy is produced by Stars in general.
So yes, there is more information about the death star. (I was actually just making a bit of an elaporated statement to show what I was trying to point out. But I guess it failed, because we got caught up in this debate)
So right, we do know a bit more about the death stars reactor. But still not so much about the "Laser".

Quote:
"Star Wars uses a fictional method of energy production and therefore all numbers are wrong

No. Just saying there is no information in fictional particels other than just posing numbers and giving numbers also add quite few information. (Which is quite obvious I think)
You may replace Hypermatter through any other word, you may like. It does not add or substract information. Because the word itself has no definition.
To have some real definition you have to end up with a real life particle in the end(tachyons exist in real life physics but I take it you do not think they are refered to)
I am not saying that this is some kind of must have. It is not that any other SiFi series do not break with real life physics all the time.
The ST M/AM has quite few in common with what we consider it to be in real life.

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