[Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by RedImperator » 2009-09-27 08:56pm

Alyeska wrote:Oh the horror. People are using a forum to have an entertaining discussion about Roman emperors. How shall we stop this menace?
If that is the case, the majority of the threads should never be down there in the first place.[/quote]I like how you ignore what I said immediately before your post: Testing threads often wander on-topic by accident. The Sopranos vs. The Wire thread is a perfect example: it started out as a thread called "What does your av say about you?", a thread entirely too trivial for any other forum.
CmdrWilkens wrote:Anyway tracking threads for content is much more time consuming than tracking threads for length and I don't think there is a valid purpose served by the additional call on volunteer resources.
This is awful thin. You're presuming there aren't already mods participating in Testing who would know when a thread is veering into spam, or that it's a substantial effort for a mod to poke his head into testing, see a thread that's gone on for five or six pages, and check out the last page or two to make sure the discussion is worth keeping alive. Even if there weren't any mods regularly participating in Testing, the forum is piss-easy to moderate and would take about two minutes' of a supermod's time. Fuck, if this is the only objection, I'll volunteer to become a mini-mod in charge. I don't post much anymore, but I spend a few minutes looking at the board most days.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Thanas » 2009-09-27 08:59pm

^I don't think we need any more mods in testing - Surlethe is on the ball already and several (mini-)mods/senators already participate in it, me included.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by RedImperator » 2009-09-27 09:02pm

Thanas wrote:^I don't think we need any more mods in testing - Surlethe is on the ball already and several (mini-)mods/senators already participate in it, me included.
I don't think so either. I was just throwing my name out there in case it really was too much of a drain on mods' time to change the policy. That should put an end to that particular objection.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2009-09-28 12:03am

Ax the 3 page lock. It serves no useful purpose. The contention that we must have a three page lock or we will face a deluge out of control spam is a black-white fallacy that shouldn't be seriously entertained by anyone on this board.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by RedImperator » 2009-09-28 12:40am

Another counterpoint to "Why are you goobers posting on-topic threads in Testing?", brought to you by Metatwaddle: the administration has for years been encouraging people to post marginal threads in Testing (often this encouragement comes in the form of insults from the mods as they move threads into Testing). So this policy was successful: if people aren't sure if something's good enough for a regular forum, they post it in Testing. Sometimes what they post actually is trivial and belongs there, but sometimes it's good material that generates discussion that doesn't deserve to be arbitrarily locked on the third page.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2009-09-28 12:49am

RedImperator wrote:
Thanas wrote:^I don't think we need any more mods in testing - Surlethe is on the ball already and several (mini-)mods/senators already participate in it, me included.
I don't think so either. I was just throwing my name out there in case it really was too much of a drain on mods' time to change the policy. That should put an end to that particular objection.
Two things:

1) I've yet to see a mod (not a mini-mod) chime in in support of this so I'm just wondering if the time issue is one that is out there. Let me clarify that i have no way of knowing but when the only super-mods and mods I've seen have argued against ending the lock it makes me doubt the time issue.

2) Volunteering is great and I would honestly assume that given your past mod history that there would be no objection but as the Senate (were it to vote on the issue) lacks the power to make you a mod again I would prefer confirmation that this would be an acceptable stand by.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by RedImperator » 2009-09-28 12:58pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:
RedImperator wrote:
Thanas wrote:^I don't think we need any more mods in testing - Surlethe is on the ball already and several (mini-)mods/senators already participate in it, me included.
I don't think so either. I was just throwing my name out there in case it really was too much of a drain on mods' time to change the policy. That should put an end to that particular objection.
Two things:

1) I've yet to see a mod (not a mini-mod) chime in in support of this so I'm just wondering if the time issue is one that is out there. Let me clarify that i have no way of knowing but when the only super-mods and mods I've seen have argued against ending the lock it makes me doubt the time issue.
Then let me speak in my capacity as 1) a former supermod, and 2) one who volunteered to oversee Testing for a while: Testing is piss-easy to moderate, would take almost no time even without the page 3 lock, and I'm preemptively calling bullshit on any mod who might claim otherwise.

Let me explain why Testing is easy:
1. No forum topic. That means that the only threads you have to move are the occasional ones which have drifted onto a main forum topic and are good enough to merit saving from the autoprune.
2. Unlimited editing for users. You never have to fix broken tags.
3. Almost no flamewars.
4. Low pressure. Since nothing but the best stuff is saved for posterity and Testing's content is generally silly, you're not worried about fucking up as a mod.
5. It is a silly place. The practical result of this is that you almost never have to split, merge, move, lock or unlock anything. In fact, my guess is that removing the autolock would reduce the number of mod actions taken in Testing, not increase them.
6. Autoprune. Seriously, autoprune alone makes Testing a piece of cake. No matter what you do, it's getting flushed in a few days.

The only things you have to watch for in Testing are these:
1. Serious rule violations. Since mods should be checking for these all the time anyway, it doesn't matter if you're searching one six page thread or two three page threads. And since you should stay on top of your threads, it shouldn't matter if a thread goes to ten pages or something, because you should have at least been glancing at the previous nine as they went up. And the Report button really makes this much easier; Warsie's little stunt would have been shut down in five minutes if that had existed at the time.

2. +1 spam. And really, it should take about ten seconds for any experienced mod to spot this. Shit, half the time, I can tell when a thread has turned to spam from the outside, just judging by who's posting, what's the topic, and how fast it's growing (similarly, I can usually tell if a flamewar is going on without even opening a thread; if it's in N&P, has ballooned five pages in the last day, and Axis Kast is the most recent poster, I'd bet my car on it).
2) Volunteering is great and I would honestly assume that given your past mod history that there would be no objection but as the Senate (were it to vote on the issue) lacks the power to make you a mod again I would prefer confirmation that this would be an acceptable stand by.
The point is moot because Surlethe and Thanas are semi-regular Testing contributors and I see no evidence fgalkin and Bean are ready to just let Testing do whatever it wants. Plus Ghost Rider is occasionally in there, too. That's more mod attention than I feel like fucking N&P gets, sometimes.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2009-09-28 05:38pm

Fair enough.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Mr Bean » 2009-09-28 09:17pm

If we were locking +1 spam... um RedImperator, do we only count posts that say +1 spam or posts that make no sense(See Bear's posts in testing when he's off his meds or Shroom's posts anytime).

There lots of stuff I'd consider spam in Testing, most of it +1 spam is in Testing and the only real rule enforced in testing is the Pornography rule and even then that's been cut down to direct linking images not just posting a link. There are entire +1 threads in testing as we speak so saying we have to enforce that rule...

I don't understand, please clarify when we did enforce that rule in testing.

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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by RedImperator » 2009-09-28 09:33pm

Mr Bean wrote:If we were locking +1 spam... um RedImperator, do we only count posts that say +1 spam or posts that make no sense(See Bear's posts in testing when he's off his meds or Shroom's posts anytime).

There lots of stuff I'd consider spam in Testing, most of it +1 spam is in Testing and the only real rule enforced in testing is the Pornography rule and even then that's been cut down to direct linking images not just posting a link. There are entire +1 threads in testing as we speak so saying we have to enforce that rule...

I don't understand, please clarify when we did enforce that rule in testing.
Actually posting "+1" used to be an instant lock, unless the poster in question was being a douche and trying to kill the thread. Anything else didn't matter because of the page 3 lock; obviously, with it gone, the mods would have to use their judgment on when it's time to end a thread (lest the proverbial 100 page spam thread bootstrap itself to self-awareness and Skynet us all or something). Frankly, I'd be fine with a page 3 lock on a thread that's obviously not going anywhere, but if there's a discussion going on, or it's just funny, then it's stupid to lock it just because the policy says we always lock threads on the third page.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Stark » 2009-09-28 09:37pm

What's the definition of '+1 posting' anyway, and why should Testing have a different standard than other forusm? +1 posting (vulturing, tryhards, etc) get off with warnings or splits everywhere else; why does it get threads locked in Testing?

Is it because Testing is a homogenous group out to discredit the board by posting things some mod doesn't consider worthwhile? :)

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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by RedImperator » 2009-09-28 09:48pm

Stark wrote:What's the definition of '+1 posting' anyway, and why should Testing have a different standard than other forusm? +1 posting (vulturing, tryhards, etc) get off with warnings or splits everywhere else; why does it get threads locked in Testing?

Is it because Testing is a homogenous group out to discredit the board by posting things some mod doesn't consider worthwhile? :)
I think that rule dates to when Testing posts counted towards post count.

The problem we're running into here is that Testing allows posts that would be spam anywhere else, and therefore, 1) it's harder to figure out what's "on topic" in Testing, and 2) some people therefore assume every post in Testing is spam.

I admit I'm vacillating wildly on this issue. I just told Bean two posts ago I'd be fine with a page 3 lock on threads that aren't going anywhere, but I'd also be fine, I think, with just letting threads go until they die on their own, unless someone's deliberately trying to make an extremely long thread or the posts have degenerated into pure garbage (random letters or blocks of smileys or something *cough*WHORES WHORES WHORES*cough* like that).
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Surlethe » 2009-09-28 10:23pm

It seems to me that a "+1 post" is post that is completely worthless even by Testing standards - Red's "pure garbage". Most of Testing does not fall into this category (although, being spammy and off-topic, such posts would be considered +1 in a serious forum - which is why we move them to Testing). This is SDN. Even our zero-calorie spam has standards, motherfucker.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Stark » 2009-09-28 10:26pm

Yeah, since they don't count (there's no 'reward'), I'm not sure how it's even a '+1' at all. Nothing is incremented by one, except perhaps mod rage at people having a laugh.

As Surlethe says, there certainly is some complete shit in Testing and nobody would claim otherwise ... but mysteriously, those threads tend to die on their own, because they're boring as shit. The longer threads tend to be those that have drifted to a particular topic.

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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Surlethe » 2009-09-28 10:34pm

The terminology when applied to Testing, I guess, is just cultural hangover from when Testing did count toward posts. It was just a convenient term that came to mean "worthless garbage post by the standards of its forum", and it stuck around even when it wasn't literally applicable anymore.
... but mysteriously, those threads tend to die on their own, because they're boring as shit.
Yeah, so would anybody mind us ... helping them along a little? :)
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Stark » 2009-09-28 10:44pm

I don't think anyone ever complained out WHORESWHORESWHORES threads being locked. :) It's interesting that April Spamworld is way, way worse than testing ever was (and certainly is now) and that's 'normal' posters acting up.

I have to say I'm pretty much blown away that a worthless, chestbeating 'tradition' has apparently stopped on SDN; I considered the board far too conservative for anything such to happen.

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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Thanas » 2009-09-29 01:50pm

But I have to say - the recent choice of one mod to merge several threads together in one huge monster thread just annoys me. Testing threads are IMO supposed to be somewhat funny and most importantly, short.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Lagmonster » 2009-09-29 02:14pm

Thanas wrote:But I have to say - the recent choice of one mod to merge several threads together in one huge monster thread just annoys me. Testing threads are IMO supposed to be somewhat funny and most importantly, short.
"Funny" is subjective; for example, whoever did that probably thought it was funny. Personally, I find it funny that a discussion that threads in testing were kept arbitrarily short would morph into a complaint that they've been made too long.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Thanas » 2009-09-29 02:50pm

^My position on the issue has been consistent right from the start.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Frank Hipper » 2009-09-29 03:05pm

For spammy material in a forum that is supposedly so unimportant that forum rules can't be applied to it, people on both sides certainly have their panties in a bunch over it. :lol:
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by RedImperator » 2009-09-29 04:06pm

Lagmonster wrote:
Thanas wrote:But I have to say - the recent choice of one mod to merge several threads together in one huge monster thread just annoys me. Testing threads are IMO supposed to be somewhat funny and most importantly, short.
"Funny" is subjective; for example, whoever did that probably thought it was funny. Personally, I find it funny that a discussion that threads in testing were kept arbitrarily short would morph into a complaint that they've been made too long.
I'm pretty sure the problem is that some mod is acting like a douche, and not that the thread is too long per se.
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Stark » 2009-09-29 04:09pm

Thanas wrote:^My position on the issue has been consistent right from the start.
And that's why we love you! Oh, and you can actually string a sentence together beyond 'hurf durf I a tough guy'. That helps too. Because of you, nobody can say 'the entire mod staff deserves no respect'. :)

I guess we can just assume people have been saying Testing is 'so unimportant rules can't be applied to it', which is a pretty funny distortion of 'manually locking on page 3 is redundant and useless'.

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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Frank Hipper » 2009-09-29 04:51pm

Stark wrote:...I guess we can just assume people have been saying Testing is 'so unimportant rules can't be applied to it', which is a pretty funny distortion of 'manually locking on page 3 is redundant and useless'.
The funny distortion is your applying a specific situation to a general statement about both sides getting in a froth over a fake forum where the rules don't apply.

Testing is spam, throw-away bullshit; why so serious?
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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Stark » 2009-09-29 04:54pm

So when you said that Testing was 'supposedly a forum that is supposedly so unimportant that forum rules can't be applied to it', what did you mean? Who are you referring to? Nobody to my knowledge has made any such claim, whatever, and this thread specifically isn't about 'rules' at all, but rather administration.

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Re: [Discussion] Testing page 3 lock

Post by Frank Hipper » 2009-09-29 05:28pm

Stark wrote:So when you said that Testing was 'supposedly a forum that is supposedly so unimportant that forum rules can't be applied to it', what did you mean? Who are you referring to? Nobody to my knowledge has made any such claim, whatever, and this thread specifically isn't about 'rules' at all, but rather administration.
You can't possibly expect me to take that statement seriously.
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If Mr. Bean tried enforcing that rule in Testing, what do you think the response would be?

Testing is a fake forum, for throw-away bullshit. People getting worked up over it makes no sense.

I don't care about 3 page locks, one way or another; but people taking emotional stances about spam kills me.
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