Westworld Discussion Thread

[Joun_Lord]

I agree with the above about the escape gun fight. I mean seriously, even someone with no firearms training or combat experience is going to know not to rush at the enemy, to actually fire your wepon so there is atleast some small chance of even scoring a lucky hit, and to not rush at the enemy. I know I repeated the rushing the enemy part but it needs repeated. They aren't WWI trench fighters going through no mans land, they could use some cover, some tactics, something other then blindly rushing the evil robits spraying P90 fire.

I'm either going to assume all the Quality Assurance guards were actually suicidal or were all actually hosts. They fought like some hosts did in Westworld, completely out in the open with no fear of dying or sense of anything approaching common sense. The latter would make a bit of sense if the fanon theory that some of the staff are actually hosts. Felix certainly didn't think the idea was too outlandish. Maeve might have said he was human but its not like she wouldn't lie, having Felix having an existential crisis probably wouldn't help in her escape plan. And douchey tech Sylvester was healed by one of the tools they use on hosts, hard to say whether the stuff works on humans the same as hosts.

Maybe if the staff were all hosts it would go towards explaining why it seemed okay to slaughter the lot of them. Are we really supposed to think it was a good think people like lube guy and finger guy were horrifically killed? Maybe we were supposed to root for lube guys death because he was going to face fuck a host? A piece of equipment. Something that is not a person, cannot be raped like he if he stuck his dick in a printer. Some hosts might be "alive" but there is no real evidence that safe robber dude was and even if they were the people have no way of knowing. Thinking they are alive is like thinking some NPC in a vidya game is alive. Some NPC like Serena from Skyrim Dawnguard is extremely lifelike, you actually get an emotional connection to her. She isn't alive, it isn't murder if I give her an arrow to the face nor rape if I modded the game to do that. Fucked up, oh yeah (though I guess shows you how odd I and presumably others are that killing her is fine but I feel a bit queasy raping her). Thinking they are alive is what Logan was bitching about to William, the trap of thinking they are alive because they are so life-like. Logan was an asshole but he wasn't wrong.

Overall I enjoyed the show, do look forward to the next season and the hints of an expanded world. Don't know exactly how the world would continue to exist after the ending of the most recent episode but look forward to finding out.

[NecronLord]

Spoiler

The gunfight fits, to be honest. I can't imagine those guards have ever had to deal with someone who can fight back; probably the worst the hosts have done - and been seriously expected to do - is try to flee, not fight back.

Why train to protect yourself if your enemy locks up the moment they point a gun at you? If anything you want to rush them so they lock up quicker.

[NecronLord]

Maybe if the staff were all hosts it would go towards explaining why it seemed okay to slaughter the lot of them. Are we really supposed to think it was a good think people like lube guy and finger guy were horrifically killed? Maybe we were supposed to root for lube guys death because he was going to face fuck a host? A piece of equipment. Something that is not a person, cannot be raped like he if he stuck his dick in a printer. Some hosts might be "alive" but there is no real evidence that safe robber dude was and even if they were the people have no way of knowing. Thinking they are alive is like thinking some NPC in a vidya game is alive. Some NPC like Serena from Skyrim Dawnguard is extremely lifelike, you actually get an emotional connection to her. She isn't alive, it isn't murder if I give her an arrow to the face nor rape if I modded the game to do that. Fucked up, oh yeah (though I guess shows you how odd I and presumably others are that killing her is fine but I feel a bit queasy raping her). Thinking they are alive is what Logan was bitching about to William, the trap of thinking they are alive because they are so life-like. Logan was an asshole but he wasn't wrong.

I for one wanted Maeve to escape - do you care how many Roman soldiers Spartacus kills, even if they happen to be taking a shit at the time?

[Joun_Lord]

I for one wanted Maeve to escape - do you care how many Roman soldiers Spartacus kills, even if they happen to be taking a shit at the time?

I wanted her to escape too, doesn't mean I didn't think about the human cost. These aren't enemy soldiers, piece of human garbage slavers, or anything really terrible. These were technicians and rent-a-cops. These weren't bad people, these were normal everyday people at some job who were mowed down. I find that pretty fucked up.

[FaxModem1]

I for one wanted Maeve to escape - do you care how many Roman soldiers Spartacus kills, even if they happen to be taking a shit at the time?

I wanted her to escape too, doesn't mean I didn't think about the human cost. These aren't enemy soldiers, piece of human garbage slavers, or anything really terrible. These were technicians and rent-a-cops. These weren't bad people, these were normal everyday people at some job who were mowed down. I find that pretty fucked up.

It's why I think they were trying to show that all humans are awful, so they are worthy of being killed. Since the first episode, when William/MIB raped Dolores and killed Teddy, we've seen that all the human tourists and technicians are horrible human beings who, knowingly or unknowingly, treat these sentient beings as toys to horribly murder, kill, rape, and in general treat like garbage. So, by the end of the season, every person who was somewhat kind to the hosts either turned out to be a host, or turned into a monster themselves.(or was Felix)

William did it because he realized that trauma is necessary for the Host to awaken.That's why he's happy that host can now injure and kill him. He wanted the host to gain freedom, and he's willing to be a big villain to force them into it. He first realised the maze when he attacked Mavae and her daughter.

Any plan that includes "Rape the woman I love" is a pretty screwed up plan, especially when he OWNS the freaking park, and had much better options at his disposal to deal with freeing Dolores. Honestly, the only way this makes sense is that Logan was right, and William was a monster all along, who just needed a little push to loosen his inhibitions.

[Imperial Overlord]

Disappointing in general. I didn't fine William's heel turn credible as it was too nakedly plot imposed and I found the plot holes irritating.

To be fair to the show, I got the impression the first person shooterness of the the gunfight was a deliberate aesthetic choice and its now a case of the shoe being on the other foot with the hosts "playing the game". I'm also interested in what Maeve gets up to if they have the balls to let her leave the park and show us human civilization. Also they get points for actually giving Teddy a tragic back story after calling out to the fact he has a nebulous tragic back story.

[Joun_Lord]

It's why I think they were trying to show that all humans are awful, so they are worthy of being killed. Since the first episode, when William/MIB raped Dolores and killed Teddy, we've seen that all the human tourists and technicians are horrible human beings who, knowingly or unknowingly, treat these sentient beings as toys to horribly murder, kill, rape, and in general treat like garbage. So, by the end of the season, every person who was somewhat kind to the hosts either turned out to be a host, or turned into a monster themselves.(or was Felix)

Thats the thing, I don't think they showed them as awful, certainly not worthy of death. The hosts being "alive", sapient or whatever is debatable. Certainly it doesn't seem commonly accepted among people who actually work on the hosts, the people who would know. Ford and Arnold thought so but as Ford originally said Arnold was not looking at them objectively and now neither was Ford. Delores might be sapient but it seems like she is still just following her programming even if the programming sounds like herself. Maeve is probably the most likely candidate for sapience considering she broke programming. Not the waking up or escaping or anything like that but her last choice which as far as we know went against her programming. For most of the hosts though they are just really advanced RealDolls with some convincing programming.

Most of the people shown doing bad shit know they are doing bad shit to what amounts to a physical video game NPC. Shooting most hosts is the same as shooting the 10 bajillion Nazis I've killed over the last 25ish years of playing video games or when I decided to wipe out Diamond City just because (or to see who is really a Synth). Raping one is like raping a fleshlight. Lube guy trying to stick his dick in one is like someone at an office trying to stick his dick in a printer, the bandit guy in black isn't a guy, isn't alive, is just equipment that looks human.

The show trying to act like all the people are bad people for shooting or raping hosts is just some shitty asspull "humans are the real monsters" bullshit akin to calling people bad people for playing shit like No Russian.

I love the show but it really tries to hard to have a black and white narrative and go for tired ass old tropes.

[ray245]

William did it because he realized that trauma is necessary for the Host to awaken.That's why he's happy that host can now injure and kill him. He wanted the host to gain freedom, and he's willing to be a big villain to force them into it. He first realised the maze when he attacked Mavae and her daughter.

Any plan that includes "Rape the woman I love" is a pretty screwed up plan, especially when he OWNS the freaking park, and had much better options at his disposal to deal with freeing Dolores. Honestly, the only way this makes sense is that Logan was right, and William was a monster all along, who just needed a little push to loosen his inhibitions.

He realized that the worse form of trauma is the only thing that awakens the host. I don't think he cares about being the good guy anymore. He knows he is pretty screwed up person and like Ford, deserve every punishment he can take. His mindset is more about being the devil to save the host, or at the least Dolores.

[FaxModem1]

It's why I think they were trying to show that all humans are awful, so they are worthy of being killed. Since the first episode, when William/MIB raped Dolores and killed Teddy, we've seen that all the human tourists and technicians are horrible human beings who, knowingly or unknowingly, treat these sentient beings as toys to horribly murder, kill, rape, and in general treat like garbage. So, by the end of the season, every person who was somewhat kind to the hosts either turned out to be a host, or turned into a monster themselves.(or was Felix)

Thats the thing, I don't think they showed them as awful, certainly not worthy of death. The hosts being "alive", sapient or whatever is debatable. Certainly it doesn't seem commonly accepted among people who actually work on the hosts, the people who would know. Ford and Arnold thought so but as Ford originally said Arnold was not looking at them objectively and now neither was Ford. Delores might be sapient but it seems like she is still just following her programming even if the programming sounds like herself. Maeve is probably the most likely candidate for sapience considering she broke programming. Not the waking up or escaping or anything like that but her last choice which as far as we know went against her programming. For most of the hosts though they are just really advanced RealDolls with some convincing programming.

Most of the people shown doing bad shit know they are doing bad shit to what amounts to a physical video game NPC. Shooting most hosts is the same as shooting the 10 bajillion Nazis I've killed over the last 25ish years of playing video games or when I decided to wipe out Diamond City just because (or to see who is really a Synth). Raping one is like raping a fleshlight. Lube guy trying to stick his dick in one is like someone at an office trying to stick his dick in a printer, the bandit guy in black isn't a guy, isn't alive, is just equipment that looks human.

The show trying to act like all the people are bad people for shooting or raping hosts is just some shitty asspull "humans are the real monsters" bullshit akin to calling people bad people for playing shit like No Russian.

I love the show but it really tries to hard to have a black and white narrative and go for tired ass old tropes.

Nor do I, but the show is portraying, or at least trying to portray, everyone who plays at Westworld as an awful human being for how they treat the poor hosts. We're supposed to be happy when Armistice and Hector are gunning down rent-a-cops just doing their jobs. I don't agree with it, especially since it meant turning a thoughtful and caring individual like William into the show's debut villain.

William did it because he realized that trauma is necessary for the Host to awaken.That's why he's happy that host can now injure and kill him. He wanted the host to gain freedom, and he's willing to be a big villain to force them into it. He first realised the maze when he attacked Mavae and her daughter.

Any plan that includes "Rape the woman I love" is a pretty screwed up plan, especially when he OWNS the freaking park, and had much better options at his disposal to deal with freeing Dolores. Honestly, the only way this makes sense is that Logan was right, and William was a monster all along, who just needed a little push to loosen his inhibitions.

He realized that the worse form of trauma is the only thing that awakens the host. I don't think he cares about being the good guy anymore. He knows he is pretty screwed up person and like Ford, deserve every punishment he can take. His mindset is more about being the devil to save the host, or at the least Dolores.

I think that William just gave up on trying to reunite with Dolores after his second try, as the show seems to portray it as him just indulging in his vices. And if you remember, William tells Teddy all about how his wife and daughter were utterly terrified of him, so much so that his wife probably committed suicide to get away from him. This is not some guy taking a dark path for a noble cause. This is someone who restrained his violent tendencies and only unleashed them when he knew he could get away with it.

As the show stands, all that separates William from being a thoughtful empathetic person and a violent rapist and murderer is a girl forgetting who he is and a colleague being a dick to him on a vacation.

[Pelranius]

So what's to stop the government from nuking the heck out of Westworld now that the robot rebellion is in full swing?

I don't think that William (assuming that he takes control of Delos now that apparently the rest of board in dead) would have that much sway to stop the Marines from swooping in, for instance. Unless they really are on another world.

[Parallax]

Does the government even know it's happening?
Which makes me wonder ... why difficult would it be for the surviving Hosts to build replicas of the dead humans and those duplicates carry on as per normal?

[FaxModem1]

Does the government even know it's happening?
Which makes me wonder ... why difficult would it be for the surviving Hosts to build replicas of the dead humans and those duplicates carry on as per normal?

Not very hard at all, you'd just have wire them to be able to leave the complex, and not install any explosives into their spines that go off when leaving the park.

Also, this was basically the plot of Futureworld, replacing the board members with robots.

[Parallax]

How many of the Hosts have knowledge how to program more Hosts? The only one I can think of is Maeve due to her greatly raised intelligence and modicum of experience modifying traits on the control pads.
Bernard, of course, would know but he was (IIRC) quite out of commision the last I saw.

[Pelranius]

Does the government even know it's happening?
Which makes me wonder ... why difficult would it be for the surviving Hosts to build replicas of the dead humans and those duplicates carry on as per normal?

It depends on how many dead humans they have to build replicas of... the more people there are to replace, the greater the chances are for Murphy's Law to kick in.

[Starglider]

William did it because he realized that trauma is necessary for the Host to awaken.That's why he's happy that host can now injure and kill him. He wanted the host to gain freedom, and he's willing to be a big villain to force them into it.

I didn't like this plot when it was in 'Binary Domain' and I like it even less here. It is just stereotypical nonsense that a libarts graduate would come up with, not just orthogonal to cognitive science but actively offensive to it.

[Imperial Overlord]

It's also not accurate to what happened in the show. He's not interested in the Hosts at this point. He long ago switched over to chasing the Maze and indulging his cruelty. He directly states that the game has become dull because of the lack of risk. Now there's risk.

[FaxModem1]

Agreed, in order for the show to make its point about how awful and cruel humans are, they made the primary human hero character into an out and out villain whose only purpose was to pursue his vices and curiosities in a place where he faced no repercussions to them, to the point where he was looking for repercussions because he was so bored.

[K. A. Pital]

Loved the show. A delightfuly sickening view of the modern world.

The name "Westworld" is a great pun.