Terminator: Salvation Seven Years On...Not so bad.

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MKSheppard
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Terminator: Salvation Seven Years On...Not so bad.

Post by MKSheppard »

So, my dog was woozy after a vet appointment yesterday, and I decided to spend the afternoon after work with her; and looked for ALIENS to load into my Blu Ray Player; couldn't find it; but found Salvation instead.

So I threw that in.

My seven year review of T:S Director's Cut (after seeing T:Genisys a bit back on redbox):

It's...actually not that bad.

McG tried really hard to keep the film in continuity with all the other Terminator films to that point:

T1:
  • The death factories that were mentioned by Reese in T1
  • The T-600s
  • The photograph from T1 makes a re-appearance.
  • Arnold in his CGI'ed prime as the T-800 Model 101 Serial #001.
  • Kyle Reese as a young man scrabbling in the ruins
T2:
  • Cyberdyne reappears in various "phantom" forms -- from their logo on the consent forms that Marcus signs in prison to various logos scattered around the Skynet Central Core on the walls.
T3:
  • Katherine Brewster
  • The nuclear fuel cells that power the T-8xx series are a crucial plot point
  • Advanced versions of the T-1.
Internally, the looks of the movie show that it's towards the end of the first phase of the War Against the Machines.

It's kind of hard to elaborate all this in maybe thirty minutes (fuck spending hours on this brief essay, I have better things to do lol); but it seems to me that the FUTURE WAR [tm] itself would logically go through multiple phases -- some possible ones being:

PHASE ZERO - THE ORGANIZING:

The immediate post-nuclear aftermath. John Connor is in Crystal Peak, helping organize survivors in his immediate area and maybe across the country through the facilities available there. Both sides (Skynet and Humanity) are recovering from the nuclear war -- Skynet's big problem is that the industrial facilities that it needs (prototype automated factories under USAF contract) are inconviently located near human population centers; and would be heavily damaged in any credible exchange.

Nobody other than John Connor and Katherine Brewster actually know about Skynet (except maybe a few USAF officers and scientists off-site who may have survived Judgement day.

Skynet itself would also be in a very weak position -- it only has very primitive Generation 0 Terminators from T3 (T-1 and the mini hunter killer) and maybe a few other experimental pieces of USAF equipment to help it. Being able to control every computer device in the world does you no good when about 60% of them got vaporized in Judgement day and the rest have no power.

What it does have is control over the few remaining comms nodes still active in the world. So it could "use" human survivors for it's own ends. Send out fake orders and comms calls to various survivor groups and have those survivor groups do missions for Skynet while it slowly readies it's automated forces.

"This is the acting president of the united states to anyone still alive in the San Bernando Valley."

"12315th Military Police Company here, sir."

"Son, we need you to get something for us. We need [x]."

John Connor might even have done a few missions for Skynet himself without realizing it -- because even though he controls a key communications node, he's still very junior in rank at this time -- meaning he would have to defer to the surviving military officers.

Phase Zero would end with Skynet showing it's cards and revealing itself through various actions to be basically what John Connor said.

PHASE ONE - THE WAR OF BULLETS:

Salvation appears to take place at the very end of this phase. During this phase, Skynet and Humanity are largely using plausible extrapolations of real world technology:
  • Simple Non Human Terminators like the "Hydrobot" robot eel.
  • Derivatives of existing technology like the Moto-Terminators.
  • Advanced Generation 0+ stuff like the sleeker looking T-1s seen in two scenes.
  • T-600s (possible to build these, just look at Boston Dynamics' stuff today)
They're also all built using slightly more advanced extrapolations of modern technology -- for example, John Connor is able to easily defeat T-600s at point blank range with 7.62mm small arms (helicopter door machine gun), the bullets puncturing the T-600's casing and deadening it -- something I find plausible, because 5.56mm M995 AP can penetrate 12mm RHA at 100m; while 7.62mm M993 AP can penetrate 15mm RHA at 300m.

Additionally, Skynet doesn't have complete control of Earth yet.

The Resistance is able to contest the skies in limited amounts (A-10s), and has a small amount of surviving aerial hardware (C-130s, CV-22s, etc) in addition to (sigh) the Virginia SSN that acts as Resistance HQ.

There are also scattered bands of survivors (Gas station survivors) who think that Skynet might leave them alone if they don't make too much of a fuss.

There has to be a reason for this belief.

What I think Salvation is about is the transition between Phase 1 and Phase 2.

PHASE TWO: THE WAR OF PLASMA

Skynet starts deploying increasingly advanced magitech, like hyperalloy terminators (the T-800 prototype seen in this one took repeated small arms hits at virtually point blank range with no damage), cloned flesh coverings (again, T-800 prototype), advanced power generation (the nuclear fusion batteries for the T-8xx series) and eventually man portable energy weapons.

Using all of these technologies applied to its stable of machines (bipedal terminators, tank terminators, and hunter killers), Skynet drives the Resistance from the skies and surface in a hail of firepower, starting the road to the familiar "future war" that we see in T1/T2 where the resistance moves slowly under cover of darkness.

Additionally, Skynet would have finally felt that it had enough capability to simply start exterminating people left and right instead of using them as production labor or ignoring them -- before the development of compact nuclear fuel cells or fusion reactors, it was too cost ineffective (efficiency wise) to send out HKs and combat units on roving search and destroy missions to eliminate human survivors -- if it costs 'X' tonnes of jet fuel to get 1~ human kill in a forest via aerial HK surveys...Skynet won't do that; causing a false belief amongst the hiding survivors that Skynet won't do anything to them if they don't make any problems.

But once Skynet has near unlimited energy...

Okay, that was a little sidetrack. Back onto Salvation.

The acting and plotting was generally pretty good and I felt I got my time's worth; with the exception of several sequences:

1.) Marcus' Wright's role for Skynet

It was never really quite fully adequately explained; other than "lol, this is my XANATOS GAMBIT TO LURE JOHN CONNOR IN TO KILL HIM."

Some exposition could have been done, defining him as an important experimental prototype unit required for the development of T-800 infiltrators.

Imagine the problem -- Skynet's been running the T-800 program and has cracked all the various little problems -- hyperalloy to allow it to resist small arms and virtually obsolete the resistance's entire stable of weapons -- cloned flesh covering to allow infiltration and avoid the close up detection issues the Rubberized T-600s have....

...but the T-800 Prototypes are just ... off ... somehow.

Whenever Skynet sends out a prototype T-800 to attempt infiltration of a human survivor group, it's cover keeps getting blown, because something about the T-800's behavior creeps out other humans.

Enter Marcus Wright -- his corpse recovered from deep cold storage in the original Cyberdyne Genetics research division.

Skynet essentially was I think, using him as an instrumented test dummy to gather various performance/behaviorial profiles to get past the 'uncanny valley' for T-800 behavior.

2.) The Virginia SSN as Resistance HQ.

Enough said.

3.) The Resistance Leadership / Connor's 'Stand Down' speech.

This was a key plot point to the movie and crucial to the development of Connor as the ultimate leader of the resistance; and it was...badly botched. A lot more thought should have been put into it, because as it is; it just doesn't work.

They could have preserved the original intent by specifying how many humans were going to die in the assault and made it a serious non-trivial number on the order of maybe 10,000+

Something like:

"Skynet has fifteen thousand humans working it's production lines in Los Angeles. I know. They're making more machines to kill us against their will, but if we assault Skynet, they'll all die. Fifteen thousand."

4.) The T-800 Prototype's playing with Connor instead of just killing him.

They should have rewritten that whole sequence totally, or done some extrapolation through showing the T-800 Prototype's POV showing repeated commands overlaid from Skynet to JUST FUCKING KILL JOHN CONNOR and the T-800 ignoring it, because it became a sadist during the prototype development process where it terminated several humans...and found that it liked it.

This would then explain why Skynet set T-800s to read only as shown in T2.

5.) The ending involving HEART!

That should have either been deleted entirely, or reshot so that Marcus Wright assumes John Connor's position. It's not like we have ID cards or fingerprints in 2018. After all, if Katherine Brewster says that's John Connor, it's John Connor.

Additionally, Marcus Wright rooted around in Skynet's head for a little bit before he broke loose, so he'd have...*badum* Detailed Files on Skynet *tish* and how it behaves; explaining "John Connor's" miraculous skills at out-thinking Skynet.

I still liked it far more than Genicashcowsys.

Genicashcowsys' only good moments were the Temporal Displacement Facility sequences.
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Darth Tedious
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Re: Terminator: Salvation Seven Years On...Not so bad.

Post by Darth Tedious »

I always thought it was pretty good, never understood the hate this film got

I quite liked the way it broke the mold and didn't follow the *exact same plot* as the previous chapters (T3 only managed to not suck by making fun of the repetition, IMO)

And the hydrobots were probably the scariest new thing since the original Terminator
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Re: Terminator: Salvation Seven Years On...Not so bad.

Post by Joun_Lord »

I didn't hate the movie, actually enjoyed it quite a bit but it had problems even disregarding the problems of a changing timeline.

First and foremost is John Conner again taking a backseat. T1 we don't see John except as a baby bump. T2 he is a little kid who doesn't really have any action, he's I think something of a plot device to move the plot along. T3 he is a strung out junkie (or maybe that was the actor?) who gets his ass kicked by a veterinarian, has said veterinarian despite having no train manage to stay calmer then him in a crisis, and only real "bad ass" moment was him threatening suicide. Finally we get T4 where its going to be John Conner's movie, its going to be his time to shine and be a bad ass and live up to all that hype. But then we get most of the movie focusing on fucking Jake Sully and there was apparently plans to have John Smith replace John Conner. What is up with Terminator wanting to fuck over John Conner?

I didn't mind Jake Sully all that much but they just over did it with him. He is some guy we've never heard of and never will heard of who we are supposed to spend most of the movie paying attention to. Plus I'm sure they were trying to play him up as a Jesus metaphor over John. Also I'm not a fan of the actor. He's seems like a really shit actor or atleast an actor that mostly just stars in shit.

The prison camp bit didn't mesh with what was said and was kinda shitty anyway. How Kyle described it the camp sounded like some hellish place like a robotic concentration camp and he had spent some time in there. But no, it was these high tech looking cells that Kyle barely spent any time in. There didn't seem to be much forced labor. I'm not even sure of the point of the barcode for Kyle was considering he wasn't there for labor. That leads into another problem....

The fact Skynet knew about Kyle. Yeah changing time lines and all but it was still stupid. Kyle being known as John Conner's dad or just the fact he went back means he's a target, he can't go out and fight or anything without all the machines prioritizing him. How would they even know? That doesn't seem like information that should be known, the only person who knew he went back were the dead first Terminator, Sarah, and John. None of the info from the dead Terminator was accessed, Miles says that the chip is smashed, it doesn't work, they are just using it to give them ideas. Then the chip took a swim in some molten metal. Sarah wouldn't have told neither would have John. There should be no way they know about Kyle being important. Its sad that if they just had Kyle being captured but not on some stupid kill list could have been done without changing much.

They had Terry Crews and killed him off within minutes to replace him with some rapper. If you go have Terry Crews use Terry Crews, Terry Crews is awesome.

T4 had the problem that some post-apocalyptic movies have where there are random fires burning. Doesn't really make the movie worse but just a minor annoyance for me.

People acting like it had been decades since the end of the world when it happened not all that long ago all things considered. Shit like one of the gas station people calling I guess the winter the "dark season" and Kyle not knowing what music was.

Some positives though.

The giant Harvester terminator was awesome and the moto-terminator were cool. Both were something a bit different. The Harvester probably didn't make much sense but it looked cool. The terminators look like people because they are infiltrators, I can't see a giant robot infiltrating much. Can't even be used a double duty as infantry like the endos can. Something that huge and loud is going to just be a massive target, not be anywhere as well armored as a ground HK, and probably be more repair intensive.

John Conner in what little screen time he had was pretty bad ass and I think worked. He wasn't a wimp like the T3 Conner and seemed more of a believable older version of the T2 John.

Anton Yelchin as Kyle Reese was excellent. He unlike Jai Courtney actually looked the part. How the fuck does Jai Courtney and Sam Worthington keep getting work? They are so terrible.

I liked seeing the Resistance in a different location then bunkers in a city. I like the Resistance can operate more openly in some areas. Didn't much like how easy they were with tossing away planes and choppers. Those should be irreplaceable especially the A-10s.

The Resistance seemed more global. The leadership was a veritable United Nations of military leaders. It was good to see it was global fight, that everyone everywhere was in the fight.

No, Terminator Salvation wasn't a terrible movie. It just had alot of problems.

Might have had worse ones though if they went with the original ideas of Skynet being run by a bunch of cyborgs
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Re: Terminator: Salvation Seven Years On...Not so bad.

Post by TheFeniX »

Movie wasn't terrible. Released solo, it would have been another forgettable action flick that came out of some coke-fiend producer meeting where guys are like "THIS WOULD BE SO FUCKING COOL!" and they ramble off a bunch of cool scenes, then fill in the blanks later. That's really what T4 feels to me. The mine blowing up Worthington, him looking down and seeing the robbit parts and screaming, the gas station scenes, the crotch-rocket terminator chase scene. CGI Auhnold. They had all these cool scenes. Everything else was just filler and not worth paying attention to.

However, up against T1 and T2, even with T3 giving the series a concussion, the movie is hot garbage. I can fully understand why fans despise it.

I enjoyed T4 because I understood from the get-go that it was going to be stupid. So, I turned my brain off and watched the trainwreck. It was a mildly entertaining explosion-fest with time wasted on bad dialog and plot developments.

I did finally lose it at the heart transplant in a windy tent though. Thankfully it was at the end of the movie (and there's no way Conner even made it to that tent). My wife is all misty eyed at the sacrifice and I'm laughing so hard I can barely breath. She gets mad and all I can say is "WHAT? A veterinarian is doing a FUCKING HEART TRANSPLANT in a tent."

30 years of watching dudes getting shot/stabbed with no lasting effects. Dudes taking beatings that should leave them in comas. Falls that would be 99.9999% fatal. Steven Seagal lasting 3 seconds in a fist-fight. Years of action movie bullshit finally exploded into the streets with that scene. That scene shouldn't have just been cut. The guy who thought of it should have been banned from writing anything, even with that emoji shit, for the rest of his natural life.

This is why you should be allowed to bitch-slap people depending on the circumstances. "Hey, how about.." SMACK "No, that's bad! BAD! We do that OUTSIDE!" Even thinking about that scene still makes me chuckle. Oh man.... way to wreck it while pulling in the driveway.
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Re: Terminator: Salvation Seven Years On...Not so bad.

Post by DaveJB »

MKSheppard wrote:5.) The ending involving HEART!

That should have either been deleted entirely, or reshot so that Marcus Wright assumes John Connor's position. It's not like we have ID cards or fingerprints in 2018. After all, if Katherine Brewster says that's John Connor, it's John Connor.

Additionally, Marcus Wright rooted around in Skynet's head for a little bit before he broke loose, so he'd have...*badum* Detailed Files on Skynet *tish* and how it behaves; explaining "John Connor's" miraculous skills at out-thinking Skynet.
That was apparently the original idea, and it was even the ending they initially shot. Instead of that long, drawn-out fight in the Skynet factory, the T-800 murdered the everlasting shit out of Connor in pretty short order, leaving him as a bloodied, barely-recognisable mess (presumably, this happening right after he saved his father was intended to parallel Reese getting blown to bits right after impregnating Sarah). So, they cut Connor's face off his corpse and pasted it onto Marcus's body, claiming that he looked different because of the beating he had sustained. However, the news of that ending leaked out, the fanbase got pissed off, and they reshot the last 20 minutes or so of the film.

I'm kind of in two minds about the original ending. On the one hand, assuming the rest of the film was the same then it would essentially mean that Connor died without really achieving much of anything, and I can see why people would be pissed about that happening to a character we'd been following for 18 years (or 25, depending on how you count it). On the other hand, not only is the ending that we did get completely absurd, it makes the end product somehow feel less like a film and more like the pilot episode for a hypothetical "Skynet War" TV series, which somehow got a $200m budget.
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