Doctor Who S34E4: "Listen" Spoilers

[Iroscato]

Seems to be a very divisive episode. I enjoyed it thoroughly, even if some bits didn't work and the ending was anti-climactic. I did really like the twist at the end though, especially calling back to the Day of the Doctor. 4/5.

[InsaneTD]

The flashback to day of doctor was the highpoint of the episode.

[Broomstick]

Yeah it did seem to support the idea that Time Lord was a profession you had to go to the academy for rather than the species. Which is weird from all the times he's referred to more as a species name.

I don't see a problem with “Time Lord” being a profession or status on Gallifrey and being used as a species name everywhere else. If all, or the majority, of alien races only have contact with Time Lord Gallifreyans then I could see the term “Time Lord” becoming synonymous with the species off-planet.

My take on it is that the entities do not exist (and there is no place for them in the Whoverse - that ecological niche has already been taken by the Silence and the Vashna Nerada that were in the library where he met River Song).

Whose to say there can't be others in that niche?

It is another one of those closed time loops where the Doctor's own actions and Clara's intervention in his past (yet again) create the events of the story.

Quite a few stories of that sort in a series about time travel.

I do find it annoying the Doctor jumps through time everywhere except to Gallifrey even though it is apparently possible. Bonus annoyance for showing a hint at Gallifrey without acknowledging the Doctor seems to be doing fuck all to get his home back which is waiting for him to give them the okay.

Two points on that: first, it has been made quite clear that the Doctor is ambivalent about his homeworld. He felt terrible for rendering his own species extinct, yet he's not very fond of Gallifreyans as a people. The Doctor is a curmudgeon that does wonderful things, save lives and entire worlds, but really isn't that fond of many individuals. Why would he be eager to unpack the Time Lords from their pocket universe?

End of the Universe - So... when the show eventually does decide to get around to bringing Gallifrey back it is going to be really hilarious trying to get around the idea the Doctor can travel from the start to the end and never learn Gallifrey returned or hear about it.

At the end of the universe who is he going to learn that fact from? In the Utopia/Toclafane triology he goes to the “end of time” and no one he encounters even remembers the Time Lords ever existed. This time, there is no one else but an early time traveler from the 22nd Century who had never heard of Time Lords, and who didn't have anyone to ask about history from his point to the end of everything.

If I was a party that didnt want Gallifrey to return, I would be actively hunting the Doctor down to make sure it never happened but alas... we will just ignore our massive plot points until it suits us.

Um... didn't we have something 800 years of that at the end of last season?

I almost had hope when they started getting into the soldier aspect because it seems like a thread is forming about the Doctor vs. Soldiers.

The Doctor's dislike of soliders is clearly connected to his own self-loathing at his actions during the Time War. Yes, it's a developing theme this season.

Incidentally, did Clara seriously leave a toy soldier for the Doctor ?
How amusing is that going to be when a young Doctor looks underneath and sees "Made in (Earth Country)"

I imagine that sort of thing does occur on Gallifrey, given it's long history and time travel technology. And no, I'm not part of the crowd that believes in a separate “barn planet”. It's Gallifrey.

Gallifrey is mostly desert, however, the evidence in Day of the Doctor is pretty clear.

It has a blue sky.

So did the Gallifreyan Death Zone in The Three Doctors. We don't know why Gallifrey has a “burnt orange sky” most of the time, but it could be some sort of atmospheric effect that is missing in some places. Alternatively, for Day of the Doctor, the war and bombardment might have blown off some of the planet's atmosphere or had some other weird effect.

Earth's sky isn't always blue from the surface, and I'm not talking about just clouds. Very high humidity and haze can make the blue washout to a grey; high pollution levels (a possibility on a world like Gallifrey which surely has some industry) can alter the color of the sky to orange, brown, or grey; desert sandstorms can make the sky orange or red, as can extensive fires. Maybe there is some sort of defensive technology over the cities that changes the sky color.

Everyone talks about Gallifrey throughout that scene as if they're not on it ("The Dalek ships are surrounding Gallifrey, firing on it constantly.")

I don't see that as definitively meaning they aren't on Gallifrey. When I lived in Chicago people would say things like “Chicago is getting hit by a snowstorm” while standing in the actual city.

No sign of the endless bombardment in the sky.

Why would the Daleks target an empty desert when every time we see them actually fighting they're attacking cities and Gallifreyans?

If they pushed a button to trap Gallifrey beyond the universe, and they were on it, how were they able to have tea afterwards

The Moment is magiteck that decreed the Doctor's punishment would be to live with his actions – so it transported him away/outside the effect.

But y'know what, fuck that noise, looking again at it, it's obviously a different barn. It is a purely one-level affair, and much smaller. So... yeah. The idea that the War Doctor came back to the exact same barn is surely a metaphor. Perhaps he chose it for the resemblance, but it can't be the same one (unless it's a Time Lord barn and they've changed the interior dimensions, snrk?)

The barn in Day of the Doctor is a falling-down ruin. It may be only one wing of a formerly larger structure. Or, perhaps, the original barn was destroyed and this one replaced it, but I favor the notion it's what remains of a formerly well-kept structure.

Or, sure, it's a metaphor.

So, what do you think they will come up with next for Clara? It'll be hard to top "I was your childhood inspiration/horror who also picked your TARDIS, saved you in every adventure you ever had, convinced you to change the outcome of the universe's greatest war and was responsible for you getting a new set of regenerations" but I'm sure they'll find a way.

I'm beginning to think Clara is the universe's “reward” to the Doctor for keeping the worst of the nasties in check, which he turned out to be so good at that the universe wants to keep him around longer. It's not as blatant an immortality as Captain Jack, but the universe doesn't want the Doctor to die, so he is rescued/regenerated whether he wants it or not at this point.

[NecronLord]

No sign of the endless bombardment in the sky.

Why would the Daleks target an empty desert when every time we see them actually fighting they're attacking cities and Gallifreyans?

Because we see that the bombardment is pretty much evenly spaced across the planet's surface.

If they pushed a button to trap Gallifrey beyond the universe, and they were on it, how were they able to have tea afterwards

The Moment is magiteck that decreed the Doctor's punishment would be to live with his actions – so it transported him away/outside the effect.

Mhm. Can't disprove unlimited and untested powers, with that, but then, don't need to, as it's a different barn.

But y'know what, fuck that noise, looking again at it, it's obviously a different barn. It is a purely one-level affair, and much smaller. So... yeah. The idea that the War Doctor came back to the exact same barn is surely a metaphor. Perhaps he chose it for the resemblance, but it can't be the same one (unless it's a Time Lord barn and they've changed the interior dimensions, snrk?)

The barn in Day of the Doctor is a falling-down ruin. It may be only one wing of a formerly larger structure. Or, perhaps, the original barn was destroyed and this one replaced it, but I favor the notion it's what remains of a formerly well-kept structure.

It's a different size, and this one has both a mezzanine and windows. If it's the same barn, it has been so comprehensively remodeled as to be unrecognizable.

From an out of universe, authorial intent perspective it's pretty clear they never meant for the barn planet to be Gallifrey when they made Day of the Doctor, they talk about Gallifrey in the barn many times, always from the perspective of it being a remote place. This is consistent and not once is there an implication that it is Gallifrey in either the episode or the commentary. To say that the barn was on Gallifrey is at best, a noxious and fanfic-esque retcon.

It's my considered opinion was clearly not their intent - and I would be extremely suspicious of claims to the contrary. It's being made so now, or at least that is their intention in this episode, simply to try and look clever without putting the work in.

[Broomstick]

From an out of universe, authorial intent perspective it's pretty clear they never meant for the barn planet to be Gallifrey when they made Day of the Doctor, they talk about Gallifrey in the barn many times, always from the perspective of it being a remote place. This is consistent and not once is there an implication that it is Gallifrey in either the episode or the commentary. To say that the barn was on Gallifrey is at best, a noxious and fanfic-esque retcon.

It's my considered opinion was clearly not their intent - and I would be extremely suspicious of claims to the contrary. It's being made so now, or at least that is their intention in this episode, simply to try and look clever without putting the work in.

Do you have a direct quote from one of the "authors" to support your opinion?

They may not explicitly state the barn is on Gallifrey, but neither do they explicitly say it is not. I think your position is what you want, not what is actually presented or somehow intended by the authors.

Gallifrey IS remote - the Time Lords dont' make it easy to get there.

[Enigma]

I believe he was on Gallifrey or else he wouldn't have thought he was going to die along with the rest of them when he wanted to use the Moment.

[Gandalf]

I believe he was on Gallifrey or else he wouldn't have thought he was going to die along with the rest of them when he wanted to use the Moment.

I thought that the Moment's effects would have gone beyond Gallifrey, unless every Dalek and TL in the history of the universe was on that one planet?

[Havok]

Why in THE WORLD are you all assuming that the kid in the barn was The Doctor? That is what Clara assumed, her little thought of Hurt going to that barn to activate the moment was just that, HER thought.
Where did we get that the Doctor was raised on a remote farm by what sounded like, not his parents? Where is the toy soldier at that the mysterious dream person left on his bed? That doesn't strike me as something the Doctor, even as a child, would lose or forget about as it gives physical proof that someone was there and it wasn't just a dream, thus negating the whole aspect of it being a nightmare.
I have a thought as to who I think was actually in that bed and I'm sure you can figure out whom that may be.

As to the rest of the episode, I loved the ambiguous aspect of it. WE see the blanket monster, but they never actually do. Is it an actual monster or was it just another orphan being creepy? What opens the airlock? We don't know and the Doctor doesn't tell us. The Doctor can't and shouldn't know everything and be able to solve every mystery.

As for traveling to Gallifrey, they mention that the TARDIS travel safeguards are off repeatedly. Perhaps that ties into the "Time Lock" as it's obviously just a technology the Time Lords possess.

Capaldi does creepy exceedingly well and I hope the do more of the suspenseful episodes with him soon.

[Havok]

And P.S. Hurt never actually used the Moment. Geezuz, pay attention.

[PREDATOR490]

I do find it annoying the Doctor jumps through time everywhere except to Gallifrey even though it is apparently possible. Bonus annoyance for showing a hint at Gallifrey without acknowledging the Doctor seems to be doing fuck all to get his home back which is waiting for him to give them the okay.

Two points on that: first, it has been made quite clear that the Doctor is ambivalent about his homeworld. He felt terrible for rendering his own species extinct, yet he's not very fond of Gallifreyans as a people. The Doctor is a curmudgeon that does wonderful things, save lives and entire worlds, but really isn't that fond of many individuals. Why would he be eager to unpack the Time Lords from their pocket universe?

The Doctor saves lives and worlds - except he is actively ignoring saving his own species and homeworld but has had ample drama about being the last timelord.
He was pleading on Tranzalore to let Gallifrey return because they would come in peace but apparently he does not want them to comeback even if they are peaceful.

As for unpacking them, his entire species is waiting for him to give them the signal to come home and even stepped in to save his ass but the Doctor still decides to ignore them and the show refuses to follow up on what is a gaping unresolved issue.

End of the Universe - So... when the show eventually does decide to get around to bringing Gallifrey back it is going to be really hilarious trying to get around the idea the Doctor can travel from the start to the end and never learn Gallifrey returned or hear about it.

At the end of the universe who is he going to learn that fact from? In the Utopia/Toclafane triology he goes to the “end of time” and no one he encounters even remembers the Time Lords ever existed. This time, there is no one else but an early time traveler from the 22nd Century who had never heard of Time Lords, and who didn't have anyone to ask about history from his point to the end of everything.

The Doctor jumps back and forth through time from start to finish in a randomly haphazard form. It is logical that he would at the absolute minimum end up jumping to points where Gallifrey still exists prior to the Time War which this episode demonstrated with the Tardis going to Gallifrey in his childhood. Not to mention the inevitable possibility of the Doctor running into other Timelords or time travelers who would know of Gallifrey.
I.E If the Time War happened in Earth 2005, any time the Doctor jumps before that Earth year will have an untouched Gallifrey in the galaxy and mentioning he is the 'last' of the timelords is kinda stupid

So... for some reason the entire universe forgot Gallifrey / Timelords exist even before they went *poof* in a time war but they only magically remember when Time of the Doctor comes so they can threaten to bomb the shit out of a planet if they come back. Oh... but they happily decided to forget again afterwards.
Any power that can time travel should end up running into Gallifrey either before the time war or when they finally come back which would cause a cluster fuck of chaos with the Daleks at minimum and lead to the Doctor picking up on it if he was written consistently to give a shit.

[Havok]

How is it a gaping unresolved issue? The Time Lords gave the Doctor a new set of regenerations and then the crack in the universe closed. That we don't see the Doctor perusing a resolution, doesn't mean he isn't, especially given the amount of shit that he is insinuated to do offscreen.

The Doctor isn't going to crack the universe open, even for Gallifrey and since what they did actually worked, Gallifrey is in an almost suspended state. When they come back it should be like almost no time has passed, so there is no harm in taking time getting them back.

[InsaneTD]

The key word in time war is time. It happened through every era of the planet Gallifrey, the daleks hunted time lords through time. I'm pretty sure the Doctor have a brief description of the war during NuWho, I can't remember what episode. Eccelston said both sides tried going back in time to wipe out ancestors, killing key individuals. He says he locked the entire time war into a pocket universe. Though I do wonder how that stands with the current state of Gallifrey, did he lock Gallifrey's entire history into the picture?

[FaxModem1]

I just realized, Moffat is still running the show. And back in series 5, we had the plothole scene where the Doctor comes back to the Angels two parter to talk to Amy, and say goodbye to her. Maybe we're getting something similar here, with things being explained later in the finale, as they did with the astronaut mystery and the end of the universe plot, only now with the imaginary monster.

[Iroscato]

It's a different size, and this one has both a mezzanine and windows. If it's the same barn, it has been so comprehensively remodeled as to be unrecognizable.

Over a period of 800 years from Listen to the Time War? I would think it had been as well. It is the same barn, just remodelled. Hell, maybe it uses TARDIS technology to be dimensionally intranscedent or whatever the hell they call it.

[Broomstick]

There has long been a suspicion that the Doctor uses relative dimension technology for the pockets in his clothing - if that sort of tech is that ubiquitous on Gallifrey then using it for a building like a barn would be entirely plausible.

[Havok]

It is Time Lord tech, i.e., military tech. That doesn't mean that they use it to build barns.

[Broomstick]

GPS is military tech, but every damn civilian in the world seems to be using it today, from airliners to 8 year olds with smartphones. And yes, farmers use it when plowing, maintaining, and harvesting their fields.

Military and civilian tech can overlap with no problem.

[FaxModem1]

Well, they have used it to build a prison for Daleks, which seems rather inane and waste of technology. The Doctor also has pockets that are bigger on the inside. If this kind of technology is used on something as inane as a suit pocket, it could be used on a barn.

[Havok]

Yeah and the Doctor is the equivalent of a military officer and a Dalek prison a military one. The TARDIS also supplies his clothing, basically a military warship.

And GPS is a mundane technology, clearly being a Time Lord, as well as what goes along with it, is not or they wouldn't need an academy that effectively creates a ruling class.

And how does that seem like an inane waste of technology? There were over a million Daleks in that prison... where would you suggest they fucking keep them? I mean the Daleks had to use a whole fucking planet to keep their own PTSD Daleks prisoners, but yeah the Time Lords were inane for that.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I don't think we can use the Doctor's pockets as evidence of widespread use of the technolgy, as he is most definitely not a typical Time Lord. This is especially true when the "bottomless pockets" became more common in later incarnations, I can't recall the First Doctor having such pockets, so it's something he came up with after leaving Gallifrey.

[Darth Nostril]

Those paintings in Day of the Doctor? Specifically described as Time Lord art. If they use it for art then why not buildings?

[Havok]

I'm not saying they don't use it for Time Lord buildings, i.e., military facilities, I'm saying I doubt they use it for fucking barns. I think you see the difference.

[NecronLord]

Military technology, what? The TARDIS is not a war-machine. It is a scientific vehicle. Neither were SIDRATs in any way built for war. What evidence is there that dimensional transcendence is restricted to military applications on Gallifrey?

Do you have a direct quote from one of the "authors" to support your opinion?

They may not explicitly state the barn is on Gallifrey, but neither do they explicitly say it is not.

I think your position is what you want, not what is actually presented or somehow intended by the authors.

Gallifrey IS remote - the Time Lords dont' make it easy to get there.

I've checked the evidence and must concede that there is strong evidence that is contrary to my previous posts that I hadn't considered.

• The sky over the barn is both blue and orange, and elsewhere in the same episode Gallifrey has a blue sky.
• My contention was that that this bombardment should be visible everywhere, but in the scenes from Arcadia there's no sign of any light from it at all, or indeed any lights in the sky at all (it is completely black), so there is no reason to assume anything going on in orbit would be visible from the Barn's location either. Presumably the sky-trenches or transduction barriers are rendering the space battle/bombardment invisible.
• Most importantly, the Other Doctor does say "There are still a billion billion daleks up there." at one point, and looks skyward, so presumably that is evidence that it is on Gallifrey.

This is pretty conclusive evidence that it's Gallifrey in the original Day of the Doctor. So I must concede.

I still find it puzzling that 10 and 11 were willing to stand on Gallifrey and push the button while Clara is there, without any assurance that either they or more importantly Clara will survive, however. But there's definitely no special reason to think it's anywhere else and good reason to think it's on Gallifrey.

[Havok]

I mean, think about it like this... If every fucking building is bigger on the inside, then why would you even NEED to have a barn separate from the main house? You could have hundreds of acres of space inside the house and keep all your animals and hay there and it wouldn't cause any of the inconvenience that necessitates keeping a barn away from the main dwelling in the first place.

[NecronLord]

Yeah and the Doctor is the equivalent of a military officer and a Dalek prison a military one. The TARDIS also supplies his clothing, basically a military warship.

Evidence for these?

Because...

[Spaceship]

DOCTOR [on viewscreen]: I'm going to save Rose Tyler from the middle of the Dalek fleet

[Floor 500]

DOCTOR: And then I'm going to save the Earth, and then, just to finish off, I'm going to wipe every last stinking Dalek out of the sky!

[Spaceship]

DALEK: But you have no weapons, no defences, no plan.

DALEK: You know the Doctor. You understand him. You will predict his actions.
ROSE: I don't know! And even if I did, I wouldn't tell you.
DALEK: Predict! Predict! Predict!
DALEK 2: Tardis detected in flight.
DALEK: Launch missiles. Exterminate.
ROSE: You can't! The Tardis hasn't got any defences. You're going to kill him.
DALEK: You have predicted correctly.